Seriously struggling with the crate

mel.b

Warning: long post:o

I really need some advice to help with crate training Cooper (16weeks, alaskan malamute).

The biggest problem is that he generally won't go in there voluntarily, especially when it is time that he needs to go in. He has now started in the evenings when he is out in the yard and it is time for bed, he looks at me and runs away and tries to hide in the bushes. it is so deliberate it is almost comical. Last night after his wee stop @ 3am I put the lead on him, thinking that would be easier, he baulked at the back door and wouldn't come in. I am having to carry him inside and almost put him in the crate at the moment, and while I can lift him now, in another couple of months I won't be able to. There are treats in the crate for when he goes in and I also give him more treats once he is in - normally something high value like chicken. At night, he generally only whines and cries for about 5minutes and then settles down. Obviously I don't know how long it takes him to settle down while I am at work. Unfortunately I don't have another puppy proof area that he can be in unsupervised at the moment.

Our schedule looks like this:

6am ish - out of the crate, breakfast, play and walk
9am - into crate and I go to work
12 - 12.30 - out of crate for lunch for an hour.
1 - 1.30 - back into crate, i go back to work
5.00pm - out of crate, walk, dinner and free play till about 10.30pm
3am ish - out for a pit stop, back into the crate.

We were at puppy preschool today and I mentioned it to the trainer who suggested that i try feeding him in there. So tonight, again it was like he knew I wanted him to go in the crate as he put the brakes on at coming in the back door. Normally he'd walk in without any issue. I had to lift him inside and then he walked into the lounge with me ok. I had his dinner with me and he was able to smell it and see it. I tried to make it extra enticing for him and it included a raw steak I put it in the crate but he wouldn't go near the crate. Eventually I had to bring him over to the crate and lift his front legs in then he went in a bit more by himself. When I shut the door he just went ballistic and had no interest in his dinner, was jumping around, banging on the door etc and upturned his bowl. As I thought he would be better if he couldn't see me, i ducked out to the supermarket and was gone 10min. When I pulled up, I could still hear him howling, but he quietened down when he saw me. I should say that whenever I get home to let him out of the crate he's nice and quiet - while he's happy to see me he just lays there until I let him out (which is only a minute or two). So i ended up letting him out of the crate and he ran outside. Five minutes later he came back in and took the steak that he had tipped out of his bowl and took it outside to eat :rolleyes:

I also thought he had the bladder control sorted in the crate - certainly he hasn't had an accident in the house since the 25th June and during the night he will start to whine sometime between 2.30 - 3am to go out for a wee stop. However I noticed when I let him out of the crate when I came back from the supermarket that his bed was very wet. There was no water in his crate and there wasn't the moisture in his food to cause this much wetness. I've taken the bed out (and thrown out the insert :eek:) so I'll be able to tell properly over the next few days.

I'm moving house at the end of the month and will have a secure backyard for him to be in unsupervised. While I'm really reluctant to leave him out in it (mostly because I'm worried he will be stolen - I have an empty shed that I will put a doggy door in and a bed in there) I feel like this is where I am heading. I'd say about 80% of his free time is spent outside by his own choice.

I'm going to take Cooper back to the vet to get his kennel cough vaccination so he can go to Doggy day care maybe two afternoons a week also.

Sorry for the long post, but any advice on how to make Cooper come into the crate on his own agenda would be really appreciated.

Knine

To be honest I would consider that a lot of crate time for a puppy. Could you use a stairgate to section off a room so he has a bit more freedom?

It will be a lot easier when you move but be very careful that he is not stolen from your garden.

Have you tried giving him treats for going into the crate and then allowing him to come out again?

ABajaninCork

I agree there is too much time in the crate. The poor dog's bored stiff. That's why he won't go into the crate!!

When crating him, do you put in any toys/chews to keep him occupied? A Kong with some ham and pate stuffed in it will keep him happy. I've also heard frozen yogurt's good too, but might be a bit rich for his baby tums.

mel.b

Thanks guys. Yes, I put treats in the crate for him so he gets them as he goes in and also then give him treats while he is in there. He also has toys in there to play with - he's not that into Kongs at the moment - prefers ropey toys over rubber toys - even when the puppy kong is stuffed with goodies.

I completely take on board what you are saying about that being too long in the crate and I'll try to puppy proof the kitchen more and try that during the day. However last week I was off work Mon through Thurs, so he was actually only in the crate at night from the 29th June - 5th July (so 6 full days when he was only in the crate at night) and the problem has actually been worse on Friday and today, almost like he's gotten used to being out of the crate.

Knine

I would be very careful leaving toys with a puppy or dog unless they are non breakable or strings cannot be torn off if you are not there to supervise.

We had a tragedy happen to us.

He will be more interested in a kong if part of his main feed is reduced and placed in the kong.

kinkygirl

Unlike so many others on the A&P forum, I am completely against crating a dog for any length of time. (not wanting to start an argument, just my own opinion). But tbh, your little guy does seem to spend an awful lot of time in the crate. I can't say I blame him for not wanting to go inside.

DBB

Is he shut in the crate at night too?
I would concur that he's spending too much time in there: even being locked in all night is too much for a pup of his age with only a few weeks' experience of using the crate.
Did you build up his time in the crate slowly, without locking him into it until he was happily spending time in there voluntarily?
Sorry for all the questions op, but I'm afraid there's too much damage done now, you're going to have a job convincing him that the crate's a nice place to be.
This is one reason why I've really gone off crates, save for very short-term stays in it. I much prefer a puppy playpen... I think it's a very, very tall order to ask a pup to stay in such a confined space as a crate for longer than an hour, and I don't mean an hour, then out for a play, then in for another hour etc. The playpen gives a lot more space, is not anywhere near as claustrophobic, but still protects your home and furnishings. Being in a playpen is not as big a loss of freedom, and gives a pup, and indeed adult dog, room to move, stretch, play, and if necessary, pee in a sand-tray or turf-tray.

Edited to add: I've only just totalled up how long he's in the crate when you're at work, and you're looking at 14 hours out of every 24. Way, way too long I'm afraid OP. I wouldnt leave a well crate-seasoned adult dog in a crate for anywhere near that length of time. Half that time would be my upper limit.... And at that it'd be a playpen, not a crate.

Knine

I have one of those playpens DBB is discussing above and they are fantastic, especially for young puppies. You can get several different heights. Just don't use a collar with them.

mel.b

DBB wrote: »

Is he shut in the crate at night too?
I would concur that he's spending too much time in there: even being locked in all night is too much for a pup of his age with only a few weeks' experience of using the crate.
Did you build up his time in the crate slowly, without locking him into it until he was happily spending time in there voluntarily?
Sorry for all the questions op, but I'm afraid there's too much damage done now, you're going to have a job convincing him that the crate's a nice place to be.
This is one reason why I've really gone off crates, save for very short-term stays in it. I much prefer a puppy playpen... I think it's a very, very tall order to ask a pup to stay in such a confined space as a crate for longer than an hour, and I don't mean an hour, then out for a play, then in for another hour etc. The playpen gives a lot more space, is not anywhere near as claustrophobic, but still protects your home and furnishings. Being in a playpen is not as big a loss of freedom, and gives a pup, and indeed adult dog, room to move, stretch, play, and if necessary, pee in a sand-tray or turf-tray.

Honestly, I probably rushed into using the crate without building it up properly and it is my first experience at using one. It was late in the evening when I got home from collecting him and he spent that night in the crate without any real prep work from me. I'm not certain how much experience he had with crates before this. Then the next day was a friday and I was at work, so he was in there again, but in the evening and all weekend I was giving him treats for going in there - sometimes I was shutting the door and trying to build up the time he would be quiet ( we got up to 4mins). Now though if i'm in the room he won't settle at all, and as mentioned at night he settles within 5min.

I've moved things out of the kitchen and created a bed in there for him, so I'll give that a go tonight.

Any recommendations for where I can look for a play pen? I'd be worried though that he'd be able to knock it over.

DBB

http://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Pet-Supplies-Dog-Playpens/zgbs/pet-supplies/3024198011

Here are some playpen examples op, I'm talking about the metal mesh ones. You can make them whatever shape you want, or stretch them out to make a fence across a room. You can also clip your crate into it so the crate becomes part of the circumference, a sort of en suite bedroom!
They often also have a very handy door built into one of the panels, and fold down flat when you're not using them.

I got my big GSD when she was 9 months old, and she slept in a tall playpen very happily from Day 1, having never even been in a house before, let alone a crate! In fact, when I'd decided she was sensible enough not to have her playpen any more and took it away, she almost had a meltdown... I had to take it away in stages instead.... Bless her innate control-freak GSD DNA!

Edited to add: have just read your reply above Mel.b, thanks for the honest reply! It does seem very rushed alright, crate training needs to be done reeeeaaal easy, the dog should be happy to go in and out, and sleep in it, voluntarily before you try locking him in. When that stage arrives, you need to be there with him for a while too. So, I guess you were heading for problems from the start, but never mind... You'll not make the same mistake with the next dog!
As for the playpen toppling, as long as you keep it in a good, solid squared-off shape it should be ok... Though you can use chairs to prop it up from the outside too, if need be. I've never come across one toppling before, but no doubt someone will post here to say theirs did!

Hooked

Hey melb

I've just skimmed through the above and wanted to ask/add 2 things...

1. I've a very content 2 year old crate trained Siberian husky. It serves us well on holidays and (the fabric version) when camping. Hugo happily retires there by himself most evenings. And sleeps all night (even as a 16 week old pup with slow, built up introduction, he was fine with it). So, it can work!

2. As above... Too much time spent in there at present. Can I just ask (as your routines with lunch are identical to mine), why is he not in the yard from 9 till lunch and after lunch till you finish work?

EDITED to add. I see you have a yard which seems secure but are nervous of someone stealing him. We let our lad out back from 9-1.30 and again after lunch from 2.30-5.30 and if someone wanted to steal him, they certainly could. Back when he was a pup our yard was far les secure than it is now. In the end for piece and quiet (and for Hugos sanity) we had to put a bit of work and cash into fencing and a higher wall. Not to stop Hugo getting out, to stop others getting in. Maybe that move to the new house will allow this? Will you still get home at lunch? If so - and he's out the yard as above, I can't see how it wouldn't work with only crating at night?

But as DBB said, there's a certain amount of 'damage' done by now so I'm not sure how you'd approach the changes...

Cheers
Hooked

phelo2121

hi op in the process of crate training my eight month whippet as she has scratched a hole through the kitchen door lol we're now in week two and it seems to be going well the first week the crate door wasn't closed once she was free to roam in and out twice a day trests were thrown in and all meals in the crate door remained open for all of this. start of week two after she haf voluntarily had a few naps to n there I made it uber comfy soft dog bed as well as big duvet .I then closef the door but stsyed on tge other side snd continulesy feed treats then out again then next day same tjin little longer and got up to an hour today with us in same room no crying yet and this one does not like to be left alone or be away from us but you really need to start from scratch with the pup try putting throws ovrr crare to make it cosy and dark as their supposed to be their den put one of your tshirts in there one you font mind loosing and if possible make it the place he wants to go to relax I know its hard cos he'll wreck the place but if you could put him in bathroom st the moment and start from scratch with crate because if you dony get it right now you'll have sum fun trying to lift him in as an adult. good luvk with it

sadie06

The whole concept of a crate is new to me, as when we had family dogs growing up, we never had one. That being said, I do remember our lab puppy absolutely destroyed my mother's kitchen chairs!

We will be getting a puppy in 4 weeks at 12 weeks old. Our plan is to use our children's old travel cot, with one of these in it (made cosy) for sleeping in. Eventually, when the little guy loses the urge to chew all around him, we'll remove the travel cot, and the soft-crate will remain as a den/sleeping area.

That's the plan...no idea if it will work. Hope things improve with your guy. The playpen idea sounds good.

StickyIcky

My doberman loves his crate aka bed. All I have to do is say bed? In a questioning tone and legs it into the crate. Reason being because bed is associated with food and he's a massive food drive. Can't remember how much I gradually introduced him. I think I'm just lucky he's got a massive food drive. But yeah I never really locked him in there. Only when crate training him when is get up 2 or 3 times at night to take him out to toilet. Luckily I work from home so had that in my favour too. Sounds like you definitely need a puppy play pen. At least then he won't be free to have free run of the house but he also will have the freedom he craves. If you can put his create as part of the play pen and make it so his food and water and toys are in there but don't close the door, you might be able to also make him associate the crate with food etc one day :-) good luck

mel.b

Hooked wrote: »

Hey melb

I've just skimmed through the above and wanted to ask/add 2 things...

1. I've a very content 2 year old crate trained Siberian husky. It serves us well on holidays and (the fabric version) when camping. Hugo happily retires there by himself most evenings. And sleeps all night (even as a 16 week old pup with slow, built up introduction, he was fine with it). So, it can work!

2. As above... Too much time spent in there at present. Can I just ask (as your routines with lunch are identical to mine), why is he not in the yard from 9 till lunch and after lunch till you finish work?

EDITED to add. I see you have a yard which seems secure but are nervous of someone stealing him. We let our lad out back from 9-1.30 and again after lunch from 2.30-5.30 and if someone wanted to steal him, they certainly could. Back when he was a pup our yard was far les secure than it is now. In the end for piece and quiet (and for Hugos sanity) we had to put a bit of work and cash into fencing and a higher wall. Not to stop Hugo getting out, to stop others getting in. Maybe that move to the new house will allow this? Will you still get home at lunch? If so - and he's out the yard as above, I can't see how it wouldn't work with only crating at night?


But as DBB said, there's a certain amount of 'damage' done by now so I'm not sure how you'd approach the changes...

Cheers
Hooked

Hi hooked,

Yes, i'm worried esp at the moment that someone will steal him. I am in rented accomodation amd there was no fence / gate between the side of the house and the boundry fence. I have improvised a fence with cement blocks so it keeps him in, but would not keep anyone out.

Fortunantley the house i have purchased has tall fences all around so will be much more secure. The worry of theft is still there though, but maybe i'm being overly paranoid, although even the vet did mention for me to be careful of it.

I will still come home at lunch when i move to the new house, even though it is a bit further away than where i am currently. The plan is to install a doggy door into the the kitchen (as well as the one into the shed) so that will give him access to the yard and house.

Last night i left him in the kitchen rather than trying the crate again. He didn't whine or cry at all and my kitchen is still intact this morning I got up at 2.30am to let him out for a wee as i wasn't sure that he would know to tell me, and then he woke me at 5.45 for another pit stop. He didn't want to come in after the 2.30am pit stop and went and hid in the bushes again. I tried to coax him out with treats but he wasn't budging. 20min later i had to pick him up and bring him outnofnthe bushes. I then tried to get him to come inside on his own but he just curled up at my feet so i ended up carrying him inside. No crying or whining then again either so at least that is something.

I am going to leave the crate in the lounge room and try to restore a positive assosciation with it becuase he will still walk in and out if it on his own accord. I saw a you tube video yesterday called 'crate games' so am going to try that. While it says 'games' it is actually just training the dog very gradually for the crate.

maggiepip

Hes almost certainly not wanting to come back into the house as hes associating the house with being locked in the cage.

Like another poster here Ive never liked crates nor would I ever use them and the reality is they can only be compared to a dog den if the door is left open and the dog stays in it by his own choosing (dogs dont get locked into their natural den) But also like another poster I dont wish to start any arguments over crates

Can I say though OP some great advise has been given to you by others and fair play to you for taking it on board and genuinely trying to do the best for your dog....:)

Hooked

Hey melb

I hear you re: your current set up / stealing / worry, etc. I live in limerick city and pass a a few undesirable places twice daily with my fella. Like you, I was TERRFIED that Hugo would be noticed and stolen. I guess we just have to take that chance?

I guess removing the crate as sleeping quarters until you get to the new house is a good idea. Maybe move its location in the current house - and with the 'crate games' or with high end treats (frankfurters in Aldi, wink wink) slowly introduce it as part of his routine. During the day or evening, building up time spent and never locking it.

On the running and hiding during pee breaks... I do remember Hugo started this for about a week when he was a pup. My solution... Put the lead on him when heading out to pee. Saves having to chase him at 5am in your smalls. Small treat and loads of praise when the job is done. We actually use (and still do) the phrase 'go pee'. Even at 2 years old, Hugo forgets to go before bed unless I stand in the yard (blocking the door) and say... No, go pee!!!

It's great to hear you'll still be coming home at lunch. Dogs love routine! I know not everyone is happy with the idea of a crate. But for all the ins and outs, ups and downs, when you hit say 15, 16 months and all this training starts to pay off as he gets less 'puppy-like' - you'll have a well behaved, toilet trained, crate loving malamute. And if (like us) you take him holidaying or camping, he won't be any trouble to you or others, as he'll be used to his crate at night or for time out.

I'll end with a few points that worked for us.

1. I feed Hugo in his crate at lunch and in the mornings (only if its wet out).

2. I used it as part of his training (along with sit, paw, down, etc... 'Go to bed' became a trick. Come, was already learned, so each time he hit the crate I could say sit, down, speak etc (while in the open crate) and then come (he'd come hurtling out of it at me).

3. Our crate is just inside the back door, and beside the dining table (for feeding) so we use it to dry off wet paws, and he sits and waits there when we eat (if its not one of his meal times). I usually throw him a few small scraps and praise - basically making it a positive, rewarding environment.

We had Hugo neutered as he had one undescended testicle. A lengthy recovery by comparison to the usual 'snip' as he had a second internal one to be found. The crate was a life saver during those 2 weeks!

Should you neuter, and even if you don't, we decided (after advice on boards) to get ID tags made in the uk... Think its identitag.co.uk. They say 'I'm Hugo the husky (Gay, I know!). I'm microchipped and neutered. No one wants a large husky or Mal if they can't breed from them? Right? At least that's what I keep telling myself.

And lastly (I really must start the painting) if you're ever in Limerick for the day with Cooper, you must drop us a PM. My other half LOVES Alaskan Malamutes (we very nearly chose one over a Sibe for our [not yet bred] soon to be second dog). It would be nice to let the 'cousins' meet up and have a play and swap some advice.

mel.b

Thanks hooked. I'd love to meet up when i'm in limerick next...i'll send you a pm when i am heading down that way

Thanks for the hints & tips. I have one of those identitag's - Cooper's says 'if i'm alone i'm lost' and 'please scan me, i'm chipped' along with my phone number. When he's neutered i'll get another one with that on it.

Yeah, i'm going to have to try putting him on the lead when he goes out to do s business in the middle of the night. I use 'go wee wee' and he's really good at it. I also keep a stash of baby wipes at the back door so if it's been wet and he's muddy i can clean his paws - he's pretty good at sitting there and letting me do that. Really, he's a great boy, so placcid - putting his harness on and off for the car he just sits there, is very good in the car and rarely jumps up on me...we're still working on 'down' for when he puts his paws up on the furniture - i think that one is going to take a while! He also sits and waits when i have put down his food until i tell him 'ok' and yesterday i made a digging pit for him to dig in the rather than destroy the landlords lawn a month before i move out. I hate the thought that i have scarred him with the crate, but hopefully now we can move forward in a more positive way.

mel.b

I have to say that i love ireland and that it is my adopted country but the dog stealing that occurs i just find dispicable When i had my Mal in Australia i used to walk her into town all the time and tie her up outside a dozen shops while i got what i needed. Never once did i think she would be stolen. However here it is a different matter. For example, right now i need to head out to get some milk. I would love to walk Cooper down to the shop that is nearby but i'm not taking the risk, so instead i have to leave him the kitchen. It's really not fair.

sadie06

mel.b wrote: »

I have to say that i love ireland and that it is my adopted country but the dog stealing that occurs i just find dispicable :(

It really is disgusting! A shameful aspect of life in Ireland. I noticed this when we visited Copenhagen. People left buggies with changing bags, cameras etc outside cafes, without a worry that anything would be stolen.

I can't imagine the sheer panic when a dog is taken!

Hooked

Ha!!! The "if I'm alone I'm lost" is exactly what's on the end of Hugos tags!

You seem like you're doing so much right, we do the food release too, and paw, other paw, for cleaning the front paws when sitting. That's gas!

It seems your current situation has thwarted the crate training momentarily. Start again in the new pad and don't be so hard on yourself.

Now, more painting!!!

mel.b

Hooked wrote: »

Now, more painting!!!

You can come and paint my place after i move in...i'm sure hugo would love to come and play with cooper while you do

JustAThought

Hi - I was a bit horrified to see the amount of time your dog /pup is being locked up in a crate/cage for. Mine is crate trained but I couldn't imagine leaving a high energy curious dog like that ( similar to mine) effectively locked up for the majority of each day. It's great that you have now left the crate door open & allowed your pup to drift in & out, and to sleep out/with the door open at night.

Doggie day care is a great idea - I know it's difficult when you are in work but have you considered having someone / student come in to Hang out with the pup even just to watch Tv & be there & do a few games to keep it amused for an hour or two while you are out. I know it's hard & you are doing your best & have good ideas for the future but it seems that if the dog is in great distress & howling & refusing to go back in, the kinder thing might be to make alternative plans,or to let it loose in even one room while you are out during the day.
They are curious high energy pups with the stamina to race all day - IMO its not fair to have it locked up in a cage for the majority of its waking life. It seems that the Puppy is telling you that too with every fiber of it's little body .

mel.b

Just thought i would post a quick update.

Cooper has been sleeping in the kitchen since last Sat night and also stayong in the kitchen during the day. I was off work Wed arvo and Thurs this week. He has done really really well no whining at night at all. He will occasionally jump up on the door when i am leaving for work but again no whining or howling like previously. And thankfully my (or more accurately!) the landlord's kitchen is still in one piece and he hasn't tried to destroy anything (she says, touching lots of wood).

He also hasn't had any accidents inside and last night went the whole night without having a wee stop. The previous few nights i'd been having to wake him to take him out sometime around 3am, so when the alarm went off last night at 3.30 i decided to just wait until i heard him whine (which is what he does at 6am to go out for a wee). Anyway, no whining at all and it was 6.30 before i got up and he still hadn't asked to go out . Considering he's only just going 17wekks i'm impressed he was able to hold on that long. I'll see how he goes tonight, but i've got my fingers crossed i won't have too many more middle of the night wake up calls.

ABajaninCork

Good boy, Cooper!