SHUAU JIAO & BJJ

OLDMAN1

https://www.facebook.com/SjEvolve?fref=ts

This is a new group teaching SJ evolve, it's supposed to be a combination of Shuai Jiao and BJJ, now i know that the guys teaching the Shuai Jiao are fakes but who is the BJJ blue belt teaching the BJJ?

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10200189935532726&set=pcb.10200189936372747&type=1&theater


According to their facebook page these are 4 of the 5 founder fathers

Tom.D.BJJ

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

This is a new group teaching SJ evolve, it's supposed to be a combination of Shuai Jiao and BJJ, now i know that the guys teaching the Shuai Jiao are fakes but who is the BJJ blue belt teaching the BJJ?

Did you ask them before you came here? Also who are the fake shuai jiao teachers?

OLDMAN1

Tom.D.BJJ wrote: »

Did you ask them before you came here? Also who are the fake shuai jiao teachers?

Everyone in that pic is a fake Shuai Jiao teacher. A link to the pic was sent to me and no i didn't ask. Just wondoring who the blue belt is who is a founding father!

Chris89

content unavailable, nothing like a good fake though.

Tom.D.BJJ

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

Everyone in that pic is a fake Shuai Jiao teacher. A link to the pic was sent to me and no i didn't ask. Just wondoring who the blue belt is who is a founding father!

I dont see a BJJ blue belt? I may be looking at a different pic on the page though, as the one you linked isnt available. It looks like lots o styles getting together to train though. I dont see anything to cause twisty knickers.

What's it to you anyway, i thought you were sambo? What qualifies someone to teach Shuai Jiao? I do see Wally Dillion who's been teaching kung fu in Ireland for years. He's a nice guy, maybe you could talk to him?

Niall Keane

Shuai jiao is simply chinese wrestling and exists as one of 4 pillars to all kung fu H2H systems, the others being Die Pu, Chin Na and Dim Mak.

How can kung fu schools then practice "fake" shuai jiao

Shuai Jiao exists as a sport and a style in itself born from the sport, NOONE in Europe is pure Shuai Jiao in a traditional sense WITH a lineage!!! In any case it doesnt matter, my own coach a Tai Chi man (our TCC has a famous verifiable lineage btw) won the IMAF ISJU world chionships in 2005, another Tai chi brother of mine Quang Sam won the all China championship in the early 2000's and went on to captain the UK team for a few years. Bottom line - our "shuai jiao" has proved better than the "pure" lineages even at their own game from time to time. We didnt have to be sport shuai jiao only! Im sure any "pure" shuai jiao lads we competed against genuinely valued the experience and wouldnt try to hide behind a style specific restricted competition. That only leads to being the best fighter ever... Maybe in the whole damn vilage!

Seems these lads are "evolving" their own sport, and competitions? fair play, I say, better than hiding behind "too deadly for competition" BS most kung fu schools in Ireland do!

OLDMAN1

Niall Keane wrote: »

Shuai jiao is simply chinese wrestling and exists as one of 4 pillars to all kung fu H2H systems, the others being Die Pu, Chin Na and Dim Mak.

How can kung fu schools then practice "fake" shuai jiao

Shuai Jiao exists as a sport and a style in itself born from the sport, NOONE in Europe is pure Shuai Jiao in a traditional sense WITH a lineage!!! In any case it doesnt matter, my own coach a Tai Chi man (our TCC has a famous verifiable lineage btw) won the IMAF ISJU world chionships in 2005, another Tai chi brother of mine Quang Sam won the all China championship in the early 2000's and went on to captain the UK team for a few years. Bottom line - our "shuai jiao" has proved better than the "pure" lineages even at their own game from time to time. We didnt have to be sport shuai jiao only! Im sure any "pure" shuai jiao lads we competed against genuinely valued the experience and wouldnt try to hide behind a style specific restricted competition. That only leads to being the best fighter ever... Maybe in the whole damn vilage!

Seems these lads are "evolving" their own sport, and competitions? fair play, I say, better than hiding behind "too deadly for competition" BS most kung fu schools in Ireland do!

Shuai Jiao is not simply Chinese wrestling, you're getting confused with Chinese fast wrestling which most Chinese martial arts styles have, yours and mine but sadly not practiced by most . Pure lineage Shuai Jiao as you call it (NO ONE ELSE DOES) is a group of styles that do just Shuai Jiao (although that is not 100% right either) AND IT IS IN EUROPE with verifiable lineage A HELL OF ALOT LONGER THAN YOURS,if thats the sort of thing you're into.I agree Wudang have done very well at international Shuai Jiao competitions, by the way, how many SHUAI JIAO BLACK BELTS has Wudang given out in the last 10 years- i would guess ZERO!!! why then do you believe that people that have never done SHUAI JIAO can give them out like smarties and sign certs making people judges AND COACHES when they're not qualified to do SO, AND LETS NOT FORGET "DANS" (a japanese term) ...


If i open a club tomorrow and call it BJJ EVOLVE, wear a bjj gi and a black belt, people are going to think that i have done bjj. this is the same thing except that their wearing Shuai Jiao jackets and black belts.Can you really not see this or are you turning a blind eye.Even though the guy in the picture was wearing a bjj gi and a blue belt, it turns out that he's a white belt,so they've brought in a bjj white belt to teach Chinese Chi Na AND TO BE ONE OF THE FOUNDING FATHERS OF sjevolve..."NIALL ARE YOU SERIOUS"

No one is trying to hide behind style specific restricted competitions and you know it, the Irish Shuai Jiao Union and the World Shuai Jiao Federation are open to all REAL Chinese martial arts styles and you mentioned that WUDANG has already entered some, they were not restricted then or now, WUDANG is more than welcome to get involved, you're not because of you're past behavior (maybe i shouldn't have said that,you might threaten to take legal action against me again )


"HOW CAN A KUNG FU SCHOOL THEN PRACTICE "FAKE" SHUAI JIAO"


So Niall as the representative of Wudang in Ireland and one of Dan Doherty's senior students would you like to tell everyone here which one of these guys YOU PERSONALLY would recommend as a GENUINE Chinese martial artists/style OR DO YOU WANT TO REMAIN SILENT????


ONCE IT'S UP ON THE INTERNET, IT'S THERE FOREVER...

smacl

Paul Mitchell, Niall, and myself set up the Irish Shuai Jiao Union back in 2006, details here, as we were regularly training in this format and were keen to grow the style locally. Prior to that, the only person I was aware of teaching Shuai Jiao regularly was Liam Dale. We didn't get a whole lot of interest in Dublin, and a club in Cork took up running the ISJU in 2008, no idea if they're still there. Outside of China, the style is popular in France, with the Coup de Maire (Mayors Cup), being one of the larger competitions. Myself and Paul attended the Coup de Maire in 2004, and started practising shuai jiao from a base of practical tai chi chuan shortly after. From what I've seen, UK clubs that teach shuai jiao as a wrestling style also teach san shou, whereas the French and North African schools teach SJ with shou bo.

No idea who SJ evolve are, but the combination of SJ and BJJ sounds like pretty good fun, so more power to them. As for belts, lineage, etc... if they enter and win open competitions, they're good, simple as.

OLDMAN1

So by your way of thinking if i or one of my guys enters a judo,tkd,karate or bjj competition and win then i can open a club in any of those styles and give myself and others black belts in any of those styles.that does'nt sound right to me ...

Doug Cartel

Leaving aside the issue of insurance or political problems, if someone with no judo experience somehow opened a club that consistently produced good judo competitors, I couldn't see myself advising people against going to that club.

smacl

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

So by your way of thinking if i or one of my guys enters a judo,tkd,karate or bjj competition and win then i can open a club in any of those styles and give myself and others black belts in any of those styles.that does'nt sound right to me ...

I couldn't care less what a martial arts instructor wears to be honest. If they've competed and won in open competitions in a format that I was planning on trying out myself some day, that would be a big plus. I'm not a big fan of grading, complex hierarchies and all the kowtowing that seems to go with it.

One thing I have noticed in different SJ comps, is that some wear judo style belts and others don't. The main effect of the belt in this case is to add extra grip locations. I'd guess the collar and back of belt based techniques could be handy enough for a bouncer.

OLDMAN1

Doug Cartel wrote: »

Leaving aside the issue of insurance or political problems, if someone with no judo experience somehow opened a club that consistently produced good judo competitors, I couldn't see myself advising people against going to that club.

So Doug if a guy that had never trained in Judo opened a Judo club and graded himself and others to BB. You would not have a problem with it? I find that hard to believe. Do you think the Irish Judo Association would be as understanding and let that club join there association?

Doug Cartel

If he claimed to be IJA approved but wasn't, then I would consider him to be deceptive.

If he claimed to be a judo black belt, and had the skills to back it up, then I'd probably give him the benefit of the doubt.

Do you think the Irish Judo Association would be as understanding and let that club join there association?

Did I not say "leaving asside the issue of insurance or political problems"? I'm pretty sure I did.

OLDMAN1

Doug Cartel wrote: »

If he claimed to be IJA approved but wasn't, then I would consider him to be deceptive.

If he claimed to be a judo black belt, and had the skills to back it up, then I'd probably give him the benefit of the doubt.


Did I not say "leaving asside the issue of insurance or political problems"? I'm pretty sure I did.

Being a genuine Judo BB is not a political problem. Considering that this sjevlove **** is susposed to be a combitation of Shuai Jiao and Bjj will the Irish Bjj association be recgonising there black belts when they start giving them out?

Doug Cartel

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

Being a genuine Judo BB is not a political problem.

You asked about joining the IJA. Being a "genuine Judo BB" and having an IJA affiliated club are two entirely different things - you don't need a black belt to have an IJA affiliated club, and having a black belt doesn't mean your club will be affiliated. Stop moving the goal posts around.

Considering that this sjevlove **** is susposed to be a combitation of Shuai Jiao and Bjj will the Irish Bjj association be recgonising there black belts when they start giving them out?

Are they giving out BJJ black belts?

OLDMAN1

Doug Cartel wrote: »

You asked about joining the IJA. Being a "genuine Judo BB" and having an IJA affiliated club are two entirely different things - you don't need a black belt to have an IJA affiliated club, and having a black belt doesn't mean your club will be affiliated. Stop moving the goal posts around.



Are they giving out BJJ black belts?

I didn't mean to move the goalposts, I'm not a Judo black belt so i don't know how the IJA do things but i strongly doubt they would let a club join with a instructor who has questionable grades. no there giving out sjevolve BB...

Doug Cartel

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

I'm not a Judo black belt so i don't know how the IJA do things

Then perhaps it would be a good idea not to use judo in your analogies. It would also be best not to make stupid comments about them giving out BJJ belts.

But really I think the most important thing is that you stop calling these guys fakes, unless you have actual proof that they are faking something. Right now it looks like you are slandering them for no good reason other than that you don't like them.

None of the other kung-fu people here seem to have a problem with these guys. Unless you've got something conclusive to say that can be confirmed independently, you probably shouldn't say anything.

OLDMAN1

Doug Cartel wrote: »

Then perhaps it would be a good idea not to use judo in your analogies. It would also be best not to make stupid comments about them giving out BJJ belts.

But really I think the most important thing is that you stop calling these guys fakes, unless you have actual proof that they are faking something. Right now it looks like you are slandering them for no good reason other than that you don't like them.

None of the other kung-fu people here seem to have a problem with these guys. Unless you've got something conclusive to say that can be confirmed independently, you probably shouldn't say anything.

Doug you should learn how to read i never said they were giving out bjj BB, what i said was they were giving out sjevolve bb which according to them is a combination of Shuai Jiao and bjj and i was wondering if the IBBJA would recognise them, i really don't think they will but for some reason real Chinese martial artist are expected to listen to this ****.

what other Kung Fu? do you mean Niall? i would suggest you wait till he responds to my question in post 2 on weather he would personally recommend either of them as genuine Chinese martial artists/styles before you open that STUPID mouth again.

these guys are fakes and and if anybody believes i have slandered them, sue me, i just sent my full name and address to you..

or you could ask Niall what he thinks privately

Doug Cartel

what i said was they were giving out sjevolve bb which according to them is a combination of Shuai Jiao and bjj and i was wondering if the IBBJA would recognise them

Jesus wept.

I'm going to have to close this thread. If anyone can give me a *good* reason for opening it again, I will do so.