Birmingham DL Review

ecoli

Some Great races on show so I thought might be an idea to get a bit of discussion on regarding the races and the implications they could have

Mens 5k: Chris Thompson pretty much made this race for me pushing from 800m to go. Farah impressed me a bit more than I was expecting with this and ran fairly strong albeit a fairly modest pace. I think a sustained effort (from 1mile - 2km out) will be the only way to tackle Farah come worlds. There is alot of talk regarding Ethiopians using a sacrificial lamb to push the pace which to me makes sense as I reckon if there was a Tadese type character pushing the pace in the mid laps I reckon that Farah would'nt be able to compete. Looking at his times since he has become a world force he is not one for running fast times.

Womens 800m: Jessica Judd looks to be progressing nicely under Rob Denmark. I think next years World Juniors will be an interesting match up between her, USA's Mary Cain (if she decides to do the 800m) and the icelandic girl, Anita Hinriksdotter. Obviously you will also get the African factor as well but the three girls mentioned look to be fairly close in terms of ability and could make for the race of the meet.

Womens 1500m Aregawi looks unstoppable however I think you can't discount G Dibaba. She has been running well since her move to Jama Aden both in the 1500m and 5000m. I think depending on whether she decides to focus on he 1500m it could make for an interesting race come Moscow

pconn062

It's baffling me why the Africans keep letting Farah run these races his way, how many times have we seen him slow the pace down throughout the race and then out kick them all at the end? I agree about the sacrificial lamb thing, they need to run hard from the gun and really test him. If not they are playing into his hands and he could be looking at another double in Moscow.

With the 800m, if you go by what you read on letsrun, Mary Cain is the new messiah! Will be interesting to see how she progresses and copes with the pressure.

mikehammer67

jessica judd is the real deal

farah-the east africans are leavin it too late obviously

can they win either way?

Timmaay

Was over at it (in the VIP section, friends in high places ), but electric atmosphere, great finish to the 5k!

woodchopper

ecoli wrote: »

Mens 5k: I reckon if there was a Tadese type character pushing the pace in the mid laps I reckon that Farah would'nt be able to compete. Looking at his times since he has become a world force he is not one for running fast times.

It amazes me that some people think that the East Africans can run away from Mo Farah! Farah may lose the 5k if the 10k is very fast and he has lingering fatique. Remember Farah has run 26.48 for 10km by just sitting back and pushing on in the latter half of the race. Tadese threw in a few 60 second laps in the Olympic 10km final but Farah just stayed compossed and ran even splits for a few laps while Tadese went 60, 68 etc.

The only way Farah will be beaten in the 5k is if Gebremeskal can out kick him which he may do as he had terrible positioning going into the last lap in London Olympic 5k. However, if he does the 10km then that narrows the chances of Farah been beaten in the 5km as there are only one or two other guys that have a chance of beating Farah.

ecoli

woodchopper wrote: »

It amazes me that some people think that the East Africans can run away from Mo Farah! Farah may lose the 5k if the 10k is very fast and he has lingering fatique. Remember Farah has run 26.48 for 10km by just sitting back and pushing on in the latter half of the race. Tadese threw in a few 60 second laps in the Olympic 10km final but Farah just stayed compossed and ran even splits for a few laps while Tadese went 60, 68 etc.

The only way Farah will be beaten in the 5k is if Gebremeskal can out kick him which he may do as he had terrible positioning going into the last lap in London Olympic 5k. However, if he does the 10km then that narrows the chances of Farah been beaten in the 5km as there are only one or two other guys that have a chance of beating Farah.

I am not talking about running away from him I am talking about someone being sacrificed to push the pace in the mid stages as I dont feel that Farah's kick would be as impressive off a fast pace. I do agree outkicking him is the way to go but no one has the wheels to do it over the last 400-800m I think The East Africans are better suited to a kick off a fast pace.

They handed Farah the gold last year allowing him to kick off a 13.50 pace roughly

mikehammer67

ecoli wrote: »

I am not talking about running away from him I am talking about someone being sacrificed to push the pace in the mid stages as I dont feel that Farah's kick would be as impressive off a fast pace. I do agree outkicking him is the way to go but no one has the wheels to do it over the last 400-800m I think The East Africans are better suited to a kick off a fast pace.

They handed Farah the gold last year allowing him to kick off a 13.50 pace roughly

yes


they've done this in the past haven't they


maybe someone like gebrihiwet

drquirky

woodchopper wrote: »

It amazes me that some people think that the East Africans can run away from Mo Farah! Farah may lose the 5k if the 10k is very fast and he has lingering fatique. Remember Farah has run 26.48 for 10km by just sitting back and pushing on in the latter half of the race. Tadese threw in a few 60 second laps in the Olympic 10km final but Farah just stayed compossed and ran even splits for a few laps while Tadese went 60, 68 etc.

The only way Farah will be beaten in the 5k is if Gebremeskal can out kick him which he may do as he had terrible positioning going into the last lap in London Olympic 5k. However, if he does the 10km then that narrows the chances of Farah been beaten in the 5km as there are only one or two other guys that have a chance of beating Farah.

Farah would not win a sub 12:50 5k. Simple as.

woodchopper

drquirky wrote: »

Farah would not win a sub 12:50 5k. Simple as.

You do realize that aerobically Mo Farah is the number 1 track runner in the world with perhaps the exception of Geoffrey Mutai and Tadese in top form. Yet, neither of these two have the speed endurance to match Farah over the last mile. People seem to forget Farah ran a 60 minute half marathon on a hilly course in New York without killing himself. The idea that Farah cant cope with a fast pace is utter nonsense. He won in Monaco with a 12.53 even though the pacers messed up that night. He won a time trial 10k in Pre two years ago in 26.48.

You seem to think the East Africans are so much fitter that Farah's gasket will be blown come the final lap in a fast race where in reality Farah will have the aerobic fitness to still grind out the win.

So going by your argument Farah wont run 2.05 for the marathon as he isnt fit enough to run a 12.49 and win a race.

drquirky

woodchopper wrote: »

You do realize that aerobically Mo Farah is the number 1 track runner in the world with perhaps the exception of Geoffrey Mutai and Tadese in top form.

Wow- thats a pretty sweeping statement. If he is that incredible- why has he only run sub 13 TWICE in his career (the last time coming TWO years ago)? I'm telling you right now- if Gebrewhit(sp) were to drop a sub 12:50 in Moscow Farah would not be with him. 15 men have gone below 12:50 before and Farah is certainly not one of them. To compare him to everyone from Geoffrey Mutai on down is ridiculous - he is what he is a (recently acquired post Salazar) :rolleyes: great kicker who would have been considered average next to Gebresalassie and Tergat in their day but is benefiting now from a bit of a down era in elite distance running (w/ the exception of the marathon) standards.

Pherekydes

Farah is a racer. He will do what's necessary to win regardless of pace. He will run as fast as is required.

ThePiedPiper

Really enjoyed the atmosphere at the meet too, the crowd were excellent in getting behind all of the British athletes.

There were a couple of very odd performances from athletes I assumed would be in or getting close to peak form. Sally Pearsons, for example, looked very sharp doing her warmup routines, and I was really excited about seeing her. But, she didn't seem to execute her race at all. Likewise, Merritt in the 110 hurdles. Looked totally off his game. Looks like these two will have a lot of work to do over the next few weeks just to be in with chances of medals.

Sanchez in the 400 wasn't as much as a surprise, as I was reading in the programme notes that he is a few months behind the race in his training due to injuries or something. Looks like London 2012 was the fairytale end for him, and this year is really just about a lap of honour around the world as Olympic Champion.

Didn't see an awful lot in the 100 metres that'll seriously worry the top guys. Kim Collins had lightning fast start and pick-up, but just hasn't got the top end speed to trouble Gay or Bolt. Carter looked in good form in the final going sub-10, certainly a very solid relay guy, but unlikely to be a big threat otherwise. The young British guy whose name I can't recall looks to be an excellent prospect. He ran a PB in the heats, which was fantastic for him. However, he then went out 2 hours later, ran another PB and took a podium place. Can't do much more than that.

The men's 800 was a great race. Aman's finish was very good and I don't think the time of 1:45 really does justice to him. The rabbit was much too fast. He was through the first 400 in 49.xx I think, which likely destroyed any chance of a good time. Aman hung in very well though on the home straight.

Farah did exactly what everybody expected him to do. But, it was damn bloody close. Jeilan didn't really do anything apart from shadow Farah until he got run out of it. But, even with 30 metres to go, it was still in the balance. I don't think a double gold in Moscow is a foregone conclusion at all.

It was fantastic to see Christine Ohirigou (spelling) take the win in the 400. I thought her form was absolutely shocking running down the back straight, I was sure she was tying up. It may have been a case of who was slowing down the least in the home straight, but nevertheless she showed for a fierce competitor she is, and that regardless of form, that she can't be discounted in any race.

Judd was absolutely awesome. The race looked very competitive, tactical and there were plenty of them in the mix, but she fought her way through them all. Her attitude in the post race interview suggests that she has massive ambitions and is prepared to work to achieve them all.

I'd not heard an awful lot about her before, maybe just recalling her from last years Nationals, and she was just here on pacing duties, but Laura Crowe from Ireland looked like a very decent 1,500 runner. The pace she took them out at was very good, she went a good bit further than expected with the stadium announcer even considering whether she might just be able to keep it going.

The field events always take a bit of a second place to the track. However, these too were very enjoyable. The big Norwegian guy in the Javelin was incredibly entertaining. He pretty much messed up, fouled every throw, got annoyed with himself and threw a tantrum for the first few throws. Then, he just fired the perfect throw to take the lead by a distance, then sat back cheering on and clapping for his competitors, who couldn't get anywhere near his mark. Seemed to be a great camaraderie with these guys.

mikehammer67

i though 49.xx was the planned time roughly at the bell

although they do take off too fast and then slow down .............messes it up

ThePiedPiper

Was that the plan Mike? You're probably right, it probably was the uneven pace in the first lap as opposed to the time it took that messed them up. Still though, I would've though 50 or 51 would have been more commonplace for the first lap.

mikehammer67

the pacemaking is pretty bad all year

athletes don't seem to be able to go with it like they used to either....

W.B. Yeats

I really enjoyed this- great atmosphere- lovely stadium, was surprised to read in one of the local papers on the way home that the attendance was only 17000 or so.
Mens 5km was an odd race- the pacer was left go away on his own and it wasn't until 800 to go that the race started- Mo really brought it home- another 50 sec last lap but it seemed like the pace was very even until the burn up at the end, I would have thought that there would have been much more fast slow fast type of racing
Judd looks fantastic-only finished her A levels last week and can't run the English schools because she's now qualified for European Youths.
Thought Moncho left the 400 behind her- Ohorugo (sic??) was well off the pace on the back straight but ran a great bend and then home straight
I enjoyed the men's high jump and the women's pole vault as they were right beside me

Between this and Ostrava the other night I've come to the conclusion that the women's steeplechase is the lowest standard event going, it was comical the amount of bad jumping and poor technique on show- I think there were 3 DNFs on Sunday. In Ostrava when the pace maker pulled out the next 2 runners just ran into the barrier......

ecoli

W.B. Yeats wrote: »

Judd looks fantastic-only finished her A levels last week and can't run the English schools because she's now qualified for European Youths. Juniors?

Judd is 2 years too old for the EYOF, she is 18. She actually got Bronze in World Youths in her last eligible year back in 2011.

Pisco Sour

drquirky wrote: »

Wow- thats a pretty sweeping statement. If he is that incredible- why has he only run sub 13 TWICE in his career (the last time coming TWO years ago)? I'm telling you right now- if Gebrewhit(sp) were to drop a sub 12:50 in Moscow Farah would not be with him. 15 men have gone below 12:50 before and Farah is certainly not one of them. To compare him to everyone from Geoffrey Mutai on down is ridiculous - he is what he is a (recently acquired post Salazar) :rolleyes: great kicker who would have been considered average next to Gebresalassie and Tergat in their day but is benefiting now from a bit of a down era in elite distance running (w/ the exception of the marathon) standards.

Times are completely irrelevant come Championships. Running 12:4x doesn't matter a jot if you can't put it together the only time it really matters and actually race your opponents without a rabbit carrying you along. Farah will win in Moscow. He is the best racer in the world and really that's all that matters.

And I wouldn't call it a down era. <Snip>

mikehammer67

Pisco Sour wrote: »

Times are completely irrelevant come Championships. Running 12:4x doesn't matter a jot if you can't put it together the only time it really matters and actually race your opponents without a rabbit carrying you along. Farah will win in Moscow. He is the best racer in the world and really that's all that matters.

mostly true

but el guerrouj had moroccan rabbits to pull him along


nothing to say the ethiopians can't do the same and make it a time trial


he's the best tactically but he's not the fasttest on paper

Pisco Sour

The BBCs coverage is infinitely better when it is on BBC One and the event is in the UK. I enjoyed it a lot and there was plenty of field event coverage and much less pointless chit-chat. And dare I say it, but I find an event much more enjoyable when Usain Bolt is not competing. The constant fawning and attention towards him by Jonathon Edwards and Colin Jackson on the BBC Three coverage of the DL is infuriating. Yes, he has done good things for the sport, but at times it feels a bit like golf was with Tiger Woods in his prime, with half the galleries following him around and showing no interest in the rest.

Anyway, enough ranting. Bohdan Bondarenko was the performance of the meet. Didn't fail all evening and a mile over 2:36. He should have gone for 2:40 afterwards!

shels4ever

Pisco Sour wrote: »

Times are completely irrelevant come Championships. Running 12:4x doesn't matter a jot if you can't put it together the only time it really matters and actually race your opponents without a rabbit carrying you along. Farah will win in Moscow. He is the best racer in the world and really that's all that matters.

And I wouldn't call it a down era. I would call the previous era a dodgey one.

I don't totally agree with that. He is the best racer if the race pans out the way the Olympics did. I can't see it going the same way this year if its not run hard from the start it will be a fast last 2 miles but saying that I don't expect it to be won sub 12:50 nobody will go out that hard and drag the field with them, but no way will they allow a 13:40 winning time . If he does win it again this year he'll be kicking off a faster pace. Either way I can't wait for this race.

ecoli

Pisco Sour wrote: »

Times are completely irrelevant come Championships. Running 12:4x doesn't matter a jot if you can't put it together the only time it really matters and actually race your opponents without a rabbit carrying you along. Farah will win in Moscow. He is the best racer in the world and really that's all that matters.

And I wouldn't call it a down era. <Snip>

I think that both of you are making the points going back to what I was saying. I agree with PS regarding the point that Championship racing is a completely different nature however I think this comes back to the point I was making that if someone was to be sacrificed to push the pace in the middle stages I think the guys stand a better chance. I am not saying its a lock but I think that Farah by nature is best suited in a sit and kick race as no one can compete with him at the moment in a last lap kick. We have seen him time and time again do this and win off a fast pace so its more of a case of trying something new. He has never had to kick off a sub 12.55 pace race in his life so it would be uncharted waters for him. It has not worked for others the past 2 years for the most part so try something new which I feel is more to the strengths of East African Mentality when it comes to championship racing. How would Farah have faired in Paris last year for example?

I agree he is the best racer atm but I think this is down to others being fairly poor tactically as of late. He is running the way which is best suited to him and people are just letting him do it. Coming from mid to back pack there is a chance to exploit this putting in surges which he will have to react to in order to stay in touch with lead pack is one possible weakness.

In Birmingham it was being set up for a last lap kick as most of his races have been for the last 18 months except Chris Thompson took the bull by the horns and pushed the pace. Ok didnt work for him but he was still willing to not let the race come down to a last lap kick

ecoli

Also an interesting point is that Ethiopia will have 4 in the 10k rather than 3 (due to Jelians Wild Card) so might be more of an opportunity to work together and employ tactics to attempt to beat Farah

mikehammer67

Pisco Sour wrote: »

And dare I say it, but I find an event much more enjoyable when Usain Bolt is not competing. The constant fawning and attention towards him by Jonathon Edwards and Colin Jackson on the BBC Three coverage of the DL is infuriating.

i agree

i haven't much interest in watching bolt either


the events have been watered down with the switch to the road running
and the drug testing

i'd love to go back to the 90s for a while

i mean it was great to watch like......

Pisco Sour

ecoli wrote: »

I think that both of you are making the points going back to what I was saying. I agree with PS regarding the point that Championship racing is a completely different nature however I think this comes back to the point I was making that if someone was to be sacrificed to push the pace in the middle stages I think the guys stand a better chance. I am not saying its a lock but I think that Farah by nature is best suited in a sit and kick race as no one can compete with him at the moment in a last lap kick. We have seen him time and time again do this and win off a fast pace so its more of a case of trying something new. He has never had to kick off a sub 12.55 pace race in his life so it would be uncharted waters for him. It has not worked for others the past 2 years for the most part so try something new which I feel is more to the strengths of East African Mentality when it comes to championship racing. How would Farah have faired in Paris last year for example?

I agree he is the best racer atm but I think this is down to others being fairly poor tactically as of late. He is running the way which is best suited to him and people are just letting him do it. Coming from mid to back pack there is a chance to exploit this putting in surges which he will have to react to in order to stay in touch with lead pack is one possible weakness.

In Birmingham it was being set up for a last lap kick as most of his races have been for the last 18 months except Chris Thompson took the bull by the horns and pushed the pace. Ok didnt work for him but he was still willing to not let the race come down to a last lap kick

But is somebody really willing to give up a shot at winning a medal or a high placing so that somebody else MIGHT beat Farah? And are the Kenyans and Ethiopians at the moment capable of running low 12:50s in a championship race without a proper pace-maker?

The day we see a 4th Ethiopian going gun-ho all out for 3k and then dropping out in a 5k Championship Final will be a sad day for athletics and I hope it does not happen.

Paula Radcliffe had plenty of joy against kickers at various points in her career, by running her own race and needed no sacrificial lamb. It can be done, but are any of them actually capable of doing it to the required level?

ecoli

Pisco Sour wrote: »

But is somebody really willing to give up a shot at winning a medal or a high placing so that somebody else MIGHT beat Farah? And are the Kenyans and Ethiopians at the moment capable of running low 12:50s in a championship race without a proper pace-maker?

The day we see a 4th Ethiopian going gun-ho all out for 3k and then dropping out in a 5k Championship Final will be a sad day for athletics and I hope it does not happen.

Paula Radcliffe had plenty of joy against kickers at various points in her career, by running her own race and needed no sacrificial lamb. It can be done, but are any of them actually capable of doing it to the required level?

I can see what you are saying here regarding the person being percieved as "just a pacer" but I was thinking more along the lines of a strength based runner (Like Tadese in the past) who feels there best chance of medaling is relying on their strength and pushing the pace. The likes of Geoffrey Mutai has expressed a desire to do the 10k in Moscow and he would be someone would this sort of tactic could work out to everyone (except Farah's) advantage depending on his current shape (I know he beat Wilson Kipsang last week at 10k on roads so is in decent shape)