The Fully Accessible Airport!

AlekSmart

Whilst absent mindedly trawling through E-Tenders last night,I came upon this .....

https://irl.eu-supply.com/app/rfq/publicpurchase_frameset.asp?PID=67189&B=&PS=1&PP=ctm/Supplier/publictenders

Now,the whole tendering for Bus Stop space at the Airport thing,remains perhaps one of the DAA's few original ideas in their endless quest to turn a buck.

This time around however,I was struck by the seemingly innocous little sentence at the end....

All buses and coaches used to provide the Services shall be fully wheel-chair accessible by no later than 31 December 2014

Ye Gods !! whats all this then.....a full 14 years after Dublin Bus took the decision to embark upon a 100% Low-Floor Easy Access fleet,we have an Official Agency (after a fashion) finally recognising that this stuff has to be forcibly monitored if its to mean anything at all.

What makes it worse is that sister agency,The National Transport Authority,continues to issue licences to successful bidders without any such reference to the requirements of the Equal Status Act 2000.

Examples I can think of are the High Floor Touring Coaches still operating the Swords Express and of late the new arrival,Balbriggan Express,featuring ex BAC Olympians,retired by their original owner because they were NOT compliant with the ESA2000.

It is surely a matter of concern as to why,13 years into the 21st Century,a National Transport Authority refuses to incorporate the principle of disability access into it's Route Licencing Procedure.

The first generation of Low Floor,Easy Access vehicles are now being retired by Operators,and are available on the second-hand market,which makes the arguement about extra cost and poor availability a non-runner.

Why,one wonders,are the NTA seemingly reluctant to front-up to the accessibility issue ?

devnull

Difference is though generally low floor coaches have been around for a much shorter length of time and still to this day a vast number of coaches that are offered do not feature wheelchair accessibility although it's true that this is now improving in this regard, high floor buses have been unable to be purchased for many years now.

Taking the above into account, you could have a situation where a vehicle manufactured in 2000 is allowed but one manufactured seven years later is not allowed and most of this is purely down to the fact that a coach and a bus is a different type of vehicle with wheelchair accessible nature of the later being far more common far earlier than that of a coach.

It would be much fairer if the date for all buses to be low floor was earlier than the date for coaches to be low floor because of the greater availability of low floor bus vehicles at a much earlier time-frame, treating them both as the same is like comparing vans with lorries at the end of the day when both types are fundamentally different vehicles.

It is nonsense to bar a company who spent 350k on a high-end luxury coach in 2005 when most coaches didn't even have an option of a wheelchair accessibility but allow someone who spent 150k on a basic no frills bus in 2000 to have access, it is unfair to treat both as the same as they are not.

A far better scenario would be to require all buses to be low floor by the end of 2014, and allow until the middle of 2016 for coaches, recognizing that the low floor market of the coach sector is much younger than that of the bus and such vehicles were not widely available, and only became so during the financial crisis and that straight away gives coach operators a complete disadvantage.

But instead they are expecting the coach sector, which is struggling in this country as it is, to invest in vehicles that were not available for most of the boom time in a recession, but the bus sector does not have that problem since low floor bus vehicles have been around for almost 15 years so don't need to invest. That simply isn't viable and there has to be a realisation that applying the same rules to bus and coach is nonsense.

It also raises an interesting question on routes that have had vehicles replaced with wheelchair accessible vehicles in a recession via taxpayer funding where other operators simply couldn't afford to do so and if this tender will aid such company in their bid, especially if they operate a mix of commercial and PSO vehicles in an area they win a tender for, since would that be as viable if they didn't operate vehicles funded by the taxpayer as that would mean there would be less services operated from the area.

Whilst there needs to be a push to getting a fully accessible network in the next few years from the airport, I honestly don't believe that it's viable to get all bus and coach services to be converted by this time. A two stage approach, for bus, then coach services is what is required, recognising the current environment and the passenger flows which each service makes. By doing it too early DAA risks turning people away from public transport which I'd assume is the last thing they want.

Although I would argue that before the DAA moans about the operators operating to the airport, they should instead address the poor public transport infrastructure that is provided at Terminal 2 and the information on such that is provided at the airport, that is nowhere near up to scratch, rather than just pointing their fingers at other companies, which for the most part doing have the luxury of large government funding that they do.

bk

While of course we all would like to see full wheelchair accessibility eventually, this seems to be a far too aggressive and unfair time line to meet.

Do the DAA really think it is reasonable to give a whole industry just a year to replace entire fleets of coaches at 300,000 a pop!

The private bus companies have been one of the best things to happen to Dublin Airport, bringing massive numbers of passengers from Cork, Galway, Limerick, etc. right to their front door quickly and for a very low cost. Allowing Dublin Airport to expand it's passenger numbers significantly at the expense of Cork and Shannon airports.

To now turn around and do this to the very people who are boosting your business seems like utter madness!

devnull

I honestly think that the idea of requiring all buses be low floor from December 31st 2014 is a good one. In fact, I'd argue that there is no reason that this cannot be brought even further forward since low floor buses have been around for 15 years and as AlekSmart has said, Dublin Bus are even selling on their oldest ones to second homes.

I'd also agree that there should not be any more licenses issued for BUS services that are being serviced by non low floor vehicles for the same reason, since allowing new services to start up with 15 year old vehicles is not really desirable such as the mention Balbriggan Express shows.

As AlekSmart outlines, the fact that low floor buses have been around for 15 years and Dublin Bus and others are starting to withdraw and sell dozens of BUS vehicles to third parties, means that that the argument about extra cost and poor availability of such BUSES is indeed a non-runner.

I would also agree that all NEW coaches ordered and built from the date of the notice linked to above should be wheelchair accessible to be run on any public transport operators license, since most coach builders now offer an option that provisions for a wheelchair area be included on the specification now in 2013.

However I do not believe that the intention to make all coaches wheelchair accessible by the end of 2014 is feasible in the current climate, when you consider that I know one respected operator who leased multiple top of the range coaches from one of the leading manufacturers in 2009 and 2010 that were not wheelchair accessible since the manufacturer did not offer such an option. Such company is now left with an asset which they have invested in that will almost lose it's value and usefulness to the company overnight through no fault of their own.

An alternative to the proposed rule, is to allow an exception until the middle of 2016 for coaches built between 2004 and 2010, reflecting the fact that during such time the number of accessible wheelchair coaches were limited whilst also ensuring that the age of such vehicles is not too high.

If the DAA won't do this then one must ask them why they don't apply the same rules to taxis?

Grandeeod

AlekSmart wrote: »

Whilst absent mindedly trawling through E-Tenders last night,I came upon this .....

https://irl.eu-supply.com/app/rfq/publicpurchase_frameset.asp?PID=67189&B=&PS=1&PP=ctm/Supplier/publictenders

Now,the whole tendering for Bus Stop space at the Airport thing,remains perhaps one of the DAA's few original ideas in their endless quest to turn a buck.

This time around however,I was struck by the seemingly innocous little sentence at the end....



Ye Gods !! whats all this then.....a full 14 years after Dublin Bus took the decision to embark upon a 100% Low-Floor Easy Access fleet,we have an Official Agency (after a fashion) finally recognising that this stuff has to be forcibly monitored if its to mean anything at all.

What makes it worse is that sister agency,The National Transport Authority,continues to issue licences to successful bidders without any such reference to the requirements of the Equal Status Act 2000.

Examples I can think of are the High Floor Touring Coaches still operating the Swords Express and of late the new arrival,Balbriggan Express,featuring ex BAC Olympians,retired by their original owner because they were NOT compliant with the ESA2000.

It is surely a matter of concern as to why,13 years into the 21st Century,a National Transport Authority refuses to incorporate the principle of disability access into it's Route Licencing Procedure.

The first generation of Low Floor,Easy Access vehicles are now being retired by Operators,and are available on the second-hand market,which makes the arguement about extra cost and poor availability a non-runner.

Why,one wonders,are the NTA seemingly reluctant to front-up to the accessibility issue ?

LOL! You're right. No further comment.:D

bk

It is interesting to note, that the location of many of the bus stops at Dublin Airport actually aren't suitable to be used by a wheelchair accessible coaches!

Many of the stops have railings and bus shelters that would preclude the use of wheelchair lifts on coaches.

So if the DAA proceed with this, do they plan to also spend a lot of their own money making all the bus stops wheelchair accessible?

I think a far better solution is that the DAA require that all coach routes using the airport are accessible, but not necessarily all coaches.

So require that a wheelchair user can pre-book a wheelchair space, which the coach operator can then service either with one of their wheelchair accessible coaches or even just send a wheelchair accessible taxi to handle the person.

A much fairer solution IMO, which would satisfy the needs of wheelchair users, without the need for the coach operators to replace whole fleets of coaches.

BTW I've no problem with them requiring all buses (as opposed to coaches) being wheelchair accessible.

Carawaystick

I see an opportunity for someone with a bit of land near the airport to build a coach station and run fully accessible busses to the airport

devnull

Carawaystick wrote: »

I see an opportunity for someone with a bit of land near the airport to build a coach station and run fully accessible busses to the airport

Pray tell where such company will find the money to buy wheelchair accessible coaches and the land, and the building of the place. Because the sector is finding it very hard to access money at the moment and now they are being expected by the DAA to basically cast aside almost any coach built before 2007 despite the fact high standard coaches were almost impossible to come by with wheelchair access and even up until 2010, the choice was still quite limited.

By the way buses are already accessible and virtually every bus design has been since 1999, high floor buses have been gone for at least 10 years now. The same cannot be said for coaches as illustrated above and of the operators who do operate such vehicles they report that barely anyone uses them, I'm not saying we shouldn't aim to make all services accessible in the future, but the fact is the requirement for coaches to be so at the same time as buses is grossly unfair.

And besides, as has been pointed out, the airport does not have the adequate facilities geared up to loading disabled passengers in many peoples view since such loading requires a great deal amount of space, one needs to go and look at the bus stop layout in T2 where there is all manner of barriers which hardly make wheelchair loading easy peasy lemon squeezy.

Marcusm

bk wrote: »

It is interesting to note, that the location of many of the bus stops at Dublin Airport actually aren't suitable to be used by a wheelchair accessible coaches!

Many of the stops have railings and bus shelters that would preclude the use of wheelchair lifts on coaches.

So if the DAA proceed with this, do they plan to also spend a lot of their own money making all the bus stops wheelchair accessible?

I think a far better solution is that the DAA require that all coach routes using the airport are accessible, but not necessarily all coaches.

So require that a wheelchair user can pre-book a wheelchair space, which the coach operator can then service either with one of their wheelchair accessible coaches or even just send a wheelchair accessible taxi to handle the person.

A much fairer solution IMO, which would satisfy the needs of wheelchair users, without the need for the coach operators to replace whole fleets of coaches.

BTW I've no problem with them requiring all buses (as opposed to coaches) being wheelchair accessible.

And this is the idea which would provide a better resolution to the problem; provide accessible services but allow the operator to decide on either accessible coaches or alternative private arrangements (without additional passenger cost). City buses are different animals and should be accessible.

LXFlyer

Just to make a point here.

The etender only applies to the two sets of stops at the arrivals road at Terminal 1, and to the stops beyond the Terminal 1 car park (the atrium).

It does not refer to the coach park at all.

Therefore this applies to (as currently operating):
Aircoach
Dublin Bus Airlink
Dublin Bus local services
Bus Eireann
Citylink
Car Park Shuttles

Therefore the impact is nowhere near as big as people are suggesting.

devnull

Not forgetting Citylink

bk

So the impact is almost totally on private operators (Aircoach and Citylink) with almost no impact on semi state operators who have long had wheelchair accessible buses bought for them at tax payers expense!

If this goes ahead, will the NTA also pay for Aircoach and Citylink to buy new wheelchair accessible coaches too?

As it stands, Aircoach would have to replace 24 of their coaches at a cost of 300,000 a pop or a total of 7.2 million!

Is it in any way reasonable to expect a private operator to do that in the middle of a recession?

Again I would say a reasonable compromise would be to require the service (with pre-booking) to be wheelchair accessible, but not all coaches. In the case of Aircoach, the other half of their fleet is wheelchair accessible, so it would be relatively straightforward for them to sub in a wheelchair accessible Jonck or Levante when needed and then everyone is happy.

I'm less familiar with the specs of Citylinks fleet, but I do know their overdecker and double deckers are wheelchair accessible so they would also have a few coaches they could sub on when needed.

I believe a similar compromise would also be needed by Bus Eireann, while they currently have a larger fleet of wheelchair accessible coaches, you actually have to contact BE to use them as BE need to fit the wheelchair space before the coach leaves the depot.

I don't think the DAA has thought out this very well. I hope it was just the work of an overzealous admin who created the tender without really thinking about it and that a more reasonable compromise can be found to satisfy everyone.

lucernarian

devnull wrote: »

Although I would argue that before the DAA moans about the operators operating to the airport, they should instead address the poor public transport infrastructure that is provided at Terminal 2 and the information on such that is provided at the airport, that is nowhere near up to scratch, rather than just pointing their fingers at other companies, which for the most part doing have the luxury of large government funding that they do.

That is a very long sentence but I fully agree with the meaning behind it! That terminal is almost intrinsically a car-oriented experience with its lanes and lanes of barrier-segregated traffic just in case, God forbid, the drop-off section outside Departures might be inconvenienced by pedestrians.

The signage situation is such that upon my first public transport journey to the then-new terminal, I had to ask for directions to arrivals as I wandered outside looking for signs as I could only see Departures indicated. That's just my own experience but even still the DAA ought not to throw stones in their own glasshouse when it comes to accessibility (rather than just meeting legal minimums and to hell with how practical the solution is)

LXFlyer

bk wrote: »

So the impact is almost totally on private operators (Aircoach and Citylink) with almost no impact on semi state operators who have long had wheelchair accessible buses bought for them at tax payers expense!

If this goes ahead, will the NTA also pay for Aircoach and Citylink to buy new wheelchair accessible coaches too?

As it stands, Aircoach would have to replace 24 of their coaches at a cost of 300,000 a pop or a total of 7.2 million!

Is it in any way reasonable to expect a private operator to do that in the middle of a recession?

Again I would say a reasonable compromise would be to require the service (with pre-booking) to be wheelchair accessible, but not all coaches. In the case of Aircoach, the other half of their fleet is wheelchair accessible, so it would be relatively straightforward for them to sub in a wheelchair accessible Jonck or Levante when needed and then everyone is happy.

I'm less familiar with the specs of Citylinks fleet, but I do know their overdecker and double deckers are wheelchair accessible so they would also have a few coaches they could sub on when needed.

I believe a similar compromise would also be needed by Bus Eireann, while they currently have a larger fleet of wheelchair accessible coaches, you actually have to contact BE to use them as BE need to fit the wheelchair space before the coach leaves the depot.

I don't think the DAA has thought out this very well. I hope it was just the work of an overzealous admin who created the tender without really thinking about it and that a more reasonable compromise can be found to satisfy everyone.

Just to correct you slightly - the Bus Eireann expressway fleet is not funded by the state - it's funded from the company's own resources.

The state only funds the stage carriage fleet.

devnull

It would effect Bus Eireann too, since I believe that all coaches bought before 2007 by them also would not have wheelchair accessibility as far as I'm aware, and I believe there was even some debate about that, who argued that the choice of models were not appropriate for their needs.

The point I'm making is, that effectively the new regulations would effectively require the operators listed by LXFlyer to restrict almost every single coach purchased prior to 2007 to non airport work.

As stated before I completely agree with the aspect behind making BUS services like this and that we should also look to make coach services the same in the future, but the deadline is too early since the two are vastly different vehicles.

The cost of such rule is unfairly burdened on coach operators who are being asked to cast vehicles bought in a time when they did not have the choice of buying what the DAA want that are still well within their serviceable life. I agree there should be a maximum age limit brought in though. For example 12 years but the DAA need to understand the way the industry is at the moment and they have no idea.

LXFlyer

Well it doesn't restrict them from serving the airport - it just means that they would have to use the coach park instead of the terminal forecourt and atrium stop areas.

There is a difference!!

dowlingm

I suppose one could question whether the DAA should have such a specific role in deciding bus types or whether the NTA should be able to say "no, it's not your business to dictate that". That said, DAA were probably thinking that coaches would be a much smaller part of their transport infrastructure because people would be coming in from the City Centre via Metro North (and maybe a transfer point at Lissenhall) and now they are scrambling.

I think disabled advocates would say "we shouldn't have to wait for the private operators to decide when they feel flush enough to offer accessible service, we shouldn't be subject to a lottery as to whether the bus that turns up is accessible and we shouldn't have to forgo walk-up fares"

bk

dowlingm wrote: »

I think disabled advocates would say "we shouldn't have to wait for the private operators to decide when they feel flush enough to offer accessible service, we shouldn't be subject to a lottery as to whether the bus that turns up is accessible and we shouldn't have to forgo walk-up fares"

I think disabled advocates would believe a common sense approach would be best.

If the private operators can guarantee you are carried either by a wheelchair accessible bus or Taxi (at no extra cost) then I'd think they would consider that quiet reasonable IMO.

Note that usually for coaches fares booked online are cheaper then walk up fares, so that really shouldn't be an issue.

In the case of Aircoach, for their Dublin City Airport routes, if the coach pulled up to find a wheelchair user at the stop and the coach wasn't wheelchair accessible, then the coach driver could simply call for a wheelchair taxi to pick the person up and bring them to the airport (at no extra cost).

For their Cork route, it also wouldn't be a big deal, from what I've seen 95% of their coaches on this route are wheelchair accessible (mostly Joncks and Levantes).

Only the Belfast route would definitely need pre-booking as they normally use Setras on this route that aren't wheelchair accessible and a Taxi from Belfast would cost too much, so they would need probably at least 24 hours advance notice to bring in a Jonck to serve the wheelchair user.

I think 24 hours advance notice is pretty reasonable. In the UK, National Express (think BE) who have a very large fleet of wheelchair accessible coaches, require 24 hours advance notice:

http://www.nationalexpress.com/coach/OurService/Code-of-Practice-Disabled-Travellers.aspx

Anyway we are talking about people heading to the airport here, I doubt many people (never mind wheelchair users) suddenly decide to take a flight at less then 24 hours notice!!!

So I believe a reasonable compromise can be found for all, as long as the DAA don't do anything daft like looking for 100% of coaches using the airport to be wheelchair accessible.

I'd imagine what wheelchair users want is accessible and usable services, not thick some box exercise.

bk

Thinking about it more, I think wheelchair users might actually prefer a wheelchair accessible service, rather then 100% wheelchair accessible fleet!

Think about it, lets say Aircoach follows the DAA ruling and goes 100% wheelchair accessible. One day the Aircoach comes along and finds a wheelchair user and they board. They come to the second stop and find a second wheelchair user, well though on them, the coach can only take one wheelchair and the person gets left behind, all while following the letter of the DAA's law at great expense!

Now imagine instead it is a wheelchair accessible service, An Aircoach Setra (no wheelchair access) comes to the first stop, sees the wheelchair user and orders a wheelchair accessible taxi to take them to the airport for no extra cost. The driver then continues on to the second stop sees the second wheelchair user and does the same again.

Likewise, imagine two wheelchair users try to book a trip from Cork on Aircoach at the same time. Well though on the second person. However if instead the service is wheelchair accessible and the person had to book 24 hours in advance, Aircoach could see there were two wheelchair users and temporarily bring in a wheelchair mini bus to take both.

So a wheelchair accessible service could actually be far more beneficial to disabled people then a 100% wheelchair accessible service!

This all feels more like a bureaucrat ticking a box, then seriously thinking of the needs of disabled people.

devnull

dowlingm wrote: »

That said, DAA were probably thinking that coaches would be a much smaller part of their transport infrastructure because people would be coming in from the City Centre via Metro North (and maybe a transfer point at Lissenhall) and now they are scrambling.

Well the tender was only issues in the last few weeks and you'd expect the DAA to actually base it on the current situation when it comes to transport, not one which they thought could have been the case a few years ago, it isn't about a few years ago it is about now

I think disabled advocates would say "we shouldn't have to wait for the private operators to decide when they feel flush enough to offer accessible service, we shouldn't be subject to a lottery as to whether the bus that turns up is accessible and we shouldn't have to forgo walk-up fares"

Whether an operator is public or private has nothing to do with this situation so bringing it in is a complete red herring, it's about the state of the market and the availability of vehicles and the fact is whether some people like it or not, accessible coaches have been around a lot shorter time than accessible buses yet the DAA refuse to acknowledge this and treat them as the same. Nobody is saying BUSES should not be accessible, but a Bus and Coach are two completely different vehicles.

A coach generally will have a 12 year lifespan on front-line work and many of which will require finance spread over multi-years if bought as they cost 2-3x more than a regular city bus. Many operators will also lease their vehicles because of this and will need to enter into agreements that cannot be cancelled without a hefty fee as compensation to the company who is leasing the vehicles.

A company may have purchased/leased vehicles between 2004 and 2007 when they had no choice since there was barely any low floor coaches that could be purchased on the market and certainly nothing of anywhere near a decent standard that passengers would come to expect, this is something even Bus Eireann went on record of stating in 2006 when they bought a range of Scania Irizar PB's. Whilst things improved a little between 2007 and 2009, it wasn't really until 2010 that wheelchair coaches became more widespread.

What is being asked now is that the companies are now basically excluded from the prime spots at Dublin Airport, simply because they didn't buy a product that was not available, and are expected to dump coaches that are mid-way through their serviceable life and may or may not still have to be partly paid for or have leases to run and replace them with expensive coaches with a years notice because the DAA seem to think that a bus and a coach is the same kind of vehicle, when they are unfairly discriminating against the coach industry

Throughout 2011 and some of 2012 Dublin Bus were running 12-13 year old high floor Olympians to the airport, despite the fact low floor buses were widespread on the market in the year 1999 after which high floor city buses were not even built after 2000. And despite this, it's 14 years after the low floor bus is introduced and high floor buses are discontinued they start to restrict high floors from the airport.

Now lets take a look at coaches. Companies buy vehicles between 2004 and 2006 where wheelchair options are limited. In 2007 and 2008 we start to see the first wheelchair accessible coaches enter service with the highest profile coach operators in the country (Bus Eireann, Aircoach, Citylink). Gradually more and more manufacturers start offering such an option that by 2010 almost all offer such an option.

So we'll be generous, we'll date back to 2007 when wheelchair coaches first started to become properly available. That means that the DAA have given companies 8 years to convert their fleets from the start of such vehicles they request being properly available. With the average coach life expected to be 12 years. This means that that the vehicles are expected to be cast aside or lose access after 2/3' of their life.

Now we take a look at buses. Low floor widely available in 2000. Average life cycle is 13 years (as defined by Dublin Bus). Even the oldest vehicle bought in 1999, would have been planned to have reached the end of it's serviceable life by 2012, well before the 2015 deadline set by the DAA. This means there would be no loss to the company, since such inaccessible buses would have been replaced anyway since all of them came to the end of their life before the deadline by the time which the company had got it's full working life desired out of vehicles when purchased.

If there was fair treatment to bus and coach companies, the coach deadline would be after the bus one.

Carawaystick

devnull wrote: »

Pray tell where such company will find the money to buy wheelchair accessible coaches and the land, and the building of the place.

Why not read my post. I said bus people out of the airport to a nearby coach station.

You have land banks at the quickpark, the show centre.

Although, the etender doc seems to have rowed back on a total ban in the airport, so it's less likely to be a runner.

devnull

I don't see any rowing back here, it still says:
All buses and coaches used to provide the Services shall be fully wheel-chair accessible by no later than 31 December 2014.

I haven't seen the exact spec since I am not in the industry and the documents are only able to be viewed after expressing your interest.

LXFlyer

devnull - other people (carwaystick included) interpreted it as every coach using the airport would have to be wheelchair accessible.

That patently is not the case. Coaches using the coach park will not have to comply with this requirement.

That's the point that he's trying to make.

bk

Yes, but as it stands it potentially artificially pushes them out of the most valuable stop locations.

It also seems stupid from the DAA's point of view as surely it greatly reduces the number of companies who can bid on the tender, thus reducing the money the DAA make from it.

LXFlyer

I'm not questioning the rights or wrongs of it - merely clarifying it in the interests of the debate as several people took it up wrongly.

dowlingm

bk wrote: »

Yes, but as it stands it potentially artificially pushes them out of the most valuable stop locations.

It also seems stupid from the DAA's point of view as surely it greatly reduces the number of companies who can bid on the tender, thus reducing the money the DAA make from it.

I think it would be a very progressive and laudable idea to give the best spots to services which will guarantee accessible vehicles even if that reduced the cash grab from the tenderers. After all, wouldn't that be one way of *compensating* those companies making the onerous investment in such equipment?

devnull

dowlingm wrote: »

After all, wouldn't that be one way of *compensating* those companies making the onerous investment in such equipment?

I don't have any problem about the fact such policy is being brought in, I welcome it, I just object that it's not being done in a way which is fair because it simply is not fair.

As stated before bus operators have an advantage since any non low-floor vehicles will have been life expired before the rules come in, whereas a coach that wouldn't be the case.

I don't see every taxi being wheelchair accessible at the moment, but the DAA won't enforce that because they would argue a taxi is not a bus. Well a coach isn't a bus either.

dowlingm

devnull wrote: »

As stated before bus operators have an advantage since any non low-floor vehicles will have been life expired before the rules come in, whereas a coach that wouldn't be the case.

I don't see every taxi being wheelchair accessible at the moment, but the DAA won't enforce that because they would argue a taxi is not a bus. Well a coach isn't a bus either.

I don't care for the argument that if we can't do everything we can't do anything.

Del2005

dowlingm wrote: »

I think it would be a very progressive and laudable idea to give the best spots to services which will guarantee accessible vehicles even if that reduced the cash grab from the tenderers. After all, wouldn't that be one way of *compensating* those companies making the onerous investment in such equipment?

Which company has the money to go out and buy a new fleet of accessible coaches and then tender for the routes? I doubt that a few stops at Dublin airport would compensate any company that has to dispose of it's fleet of high floor coaches and purchase a whole new fleet accessible ones, I can't see many banks lending the money on this proposal.

bk

dowlingm wrote: »

I think it would be a very progressive and laudable idea to give the best spots to services which will guarantee accessible vehicles even if that reduced the cash grab from the tenderers. After all, wouldn't that be one way of *compensating* those companies making the onerous investment in such equipment?

Even if the company was to guarantee that it's service was accessible and that a wheelchair passenger would always be catered for?

What difference does it make then if all the actual coaches actually have a wheelchair spot or not?

You seem to have completely ignored my posts above on how a wheelchair accessible service would actually facilitate wheelchair users better then a 100% wheelchair accessible fleet.

Carawaystick

I wonder how many people here have any experience of having to actually use a wheelchair.

A lot of discrimination being put forward here, as it'd be too hard for companies not to discriminate. I'm sure it was fierce hard and a shock to the owners of plantations who had to pay their staff after slavery was abolished too.

bk

Carawaystick wrote: »

I wonder how many people here have any experience of having to actually use a wheelchair.

A lot of discrimination being put forward here, as it'd be too hard for companies not to discriminate. I'm sure it was fierce hard and a shock to the owners of plantations who had to pay their staff after slavery was abolished too.

That is a bold clam to be making, that anyone here is being discriminatory! Please point out a single post in this thread that showed any discrimination?

All of us here are 100% in favour of wheelchair accessible services. The only disagreement is exactly when and how to implement that.

Again I point out a 100% accessible service would actually benefit wheelchair users more then having all coaches 100% accessible.

dowlingm

there's always the possibility that bus companies could lease in accessible vehicles while leasing out non-accessible vehicles to other operations until such time as the normal fleet replacement cycle completes. Or they could just go to the coach park.

AlekSmart

dowlingm wrote: »

there's always the possibility that bus companies could lease in accessible vehicles while leasing out non-accessible vehicles to other operations until such time as the normal fleet replacement cycle completes. Or they could just go to the coach park.

Quite a good Blog piece here,which offers food for thought on the Timeline of The Low Floor Bus...

http://omnibuses.blogspot.ie/2013/07/something-of-step-change-excuse-pun.html

1993.....How in heavens name can the NTA still be fluting about on the issue in 2013....?

At the very least,operators such as Eirebus/Swords Express could be directed to those Leasing Companies with perhaps a few mid 90's Low Floors in stock ?

Irish Steve

The DAA would have a lot more credibility if their own house was in order.

My (now deceased) father in law had severe mobility restrictions, and in the UK, qualified for a blue card for parking in disabled spaces etc. As he did not live in Ireland, my vehicle has no such facility.

When he was visiting Ireland, trying to collect him from the airport was an unmitigated nightmare. The short term car park has (in theory) disabled parking spaces, but they are not accessible by people like me who are collecting someone with mobility restrictions, as I don't have a disabled sticker.

Finding a parking space close to the terminal entrance/exit is like trying to find hens teeth. So, the only solution is to either block the place up while loading the vehicle in the vicinity of the terminal link, which invariably raises the blood pressure of a number of high power executives who have left arriving to the last possible second, and not planned for the needs of an elderly and partially disabled passenger, or use the set down road to collect the passenger, which now immediately raises the blood pressure of the guardians of the the space otherwise known as the airport police.

The place is plastered with No collections from this area notices, but the reality is that the airport is collection unfriendly unless you are prepared to be ripped off in the car park. To make a collect work requires 2 people, one to drive the vehicle, and the other to find the incoming passenger, and then bring the passenger to the pre arranged collect point.

So, for DAA to now be coming hot and heavy with the coach operators is yet another example of their incompetence in terms of providing a genuine service for people with mobility restrictions, in that their own house is very much NOT in order.

Don't try ringing their help or information lines, I made that mistake, it was a complete waste of time, they were unable to offer any helpful suggestions of how to collect a passenger with mobility restrictions in a private vehicle that does not have a disabled sticker.

markpb

To be fair, you're complaining about a very specific problem. Surely most people carrying disabled people would have (or could easily obtain) a permit?

foggy_lad

Irish Steve wrote: »

The DAA would have a lot more credibility if their own house was in order.

My (now deceased) father in law had severe mobility restrictions, and in the UK, qualified for a blue card for parking in disabled spaces etc. As he did not live in Ireland, my vehicle has no such facility.

When he was visiting Ireland, trying to collect him from the airport was an unmitigated nightmare. The short term car park has (in theory) disabled parking spaces, but they are not accessible by people like me who are collecting someone with mobility restrictions, as I don't have a disabled sticker.

Most of those disabled spaces are taken up with large SUVs and BMWs and Mercs which appear to have no modifications for disabilities and may be parked there free by disabled people who are simply "using" the blue card from a deceased relative

markpb wrote: »

To be fair, you're complaining about a very specific problem. Surely most people carrying disabled people would have (or could easily obtain) a permit?

The disabled parking permit is quite hard to get as it is like gold, to get it in the past you had to be unable to walk at all but afaik the critera has been relaxed.

Also the permit is issued to the disabled person and not to any particular vehicle.

Irish Steve

markpb wrote: »

To be fair, you're complaining about a very specific problem. Surely most people carrying disabled people would have (or could easily obtain) a permit?

The ONLY way to get a permit in Ireland is if the person is resident in the property here, and even then it's not easy, so if a non resident family member is visiting, and has a permit, guess where the permit is.

That's right, it's with the intended passenger, so not available for use/inspection at the airport when they arrive, which is when the issues arise, dropping them off on departure is relatively easy, one level, and the set down road is usually accessible without too much hassle. Arrivals is another issue, between up and down levels, and then possibly having to walk from the arrivals hall out to the far end of the short stay, and then across the parking deck to the vehicle, that can be a major problem for someone with breathing difficulties, or a bad hip, or both.

Yes, it's specific, but from experience ( I used to work at the airport) there are significant numbers of people affected by this problem, and it doesn't get any easier as they get older. I'm sure if the Minister were to actually visit and see the specific issues, there would be change, but getting a Minister to become involved in this sort of level of detail is not exactly easy, their minders will have a conniption at the suggestion that they might actually mix and become involved with this level of issue, so it doesn't happen.

My parents are in their late 80's, but still pretty mobile, and they have started using the train and ferry to get here from the UK, which takes the better part of 12 hours, as they find that even though it's a much longer journey, the absence of hassle at the airports more than makes up for the longer travel time, the ferry port is way more accommodating in terms of access than the airport, and there are not the same hassles with security and the like, and things like baggage limits are more flexible.

It would be interesting to ask if any members of the DAA board are wheelchair users, or have mobility restrictions. I somehow doubt there are, if there were, then the attitude towards mobility restricted passengers and their access in and out of the airport would be very different.