Finishing Spreadsheet

locky76

Hey folks,

A spreadsheet i'm developing to see if short term finish is profitable, any comments are appreciated;)

moy83

locky76 wrote: »

Hey folks,

A spreadsheet i'm developing to see if short term finish is profitable, any comments are appreciated;)

Great profit in 3 months . Where did you buy them on paddys day ? :-)

Sam Kade

Why are you using dollars
Interesting dates
You need to start from scratch again

1chippy

Never buy on paddys day. i bought 4 springers last paddys day, complete disaster.
Good set up there, its just a case of how complicated to you want to go with it. maybe link the meal feeding to the number of days on farm and the cost per ton, leaving the option of say feeding 1kg versus say 5. also items like silage intake could be linked back to housing dates and such also say 1.1 isnt really going to be achieveable all year round so maybe an option on say what dates may be optimum growth and when it may be poor. i hope you dont think im being critical its just a few suggestions and all depends on how far you want to go with it.

blue5000

Might be a bit ambitous with prices?

Maybe put in a few lines for target Live weights, you have a line there for breakeven price, maybe expand a bit there with breakeven liveweight@ x,y,z carcase price?

Good idea though, I'd imagine most lads around the ring would be able to do this sort of stuff in their heads. Can you do more with a spreadsheet? Like different straights, price/ton/ufl values?

bob charles

your costs are far from accurate, include €20 at least for mortality. Everything has to be costed like stupid things such as hedgecutting, maintenance, vehicles, interest figure for money (or opportunity cost), land cost. Love your optimism on prices and performance:)

Sam Kade

bob charles wrote: »

your costs are far from accurate, include €20 at least for mortality. Everything has to be costed like stupid things such as hedgecutting, maintenance, vehicles, interest figure for money (or opportunity cost), land cost. Love your optimism on prices and performance:)

Opportunity cost? You are either farming your land or renting it

1chippy

Sam Kade wrote: »

Opportunity cost? You are either farming your land or renting it

maybe your rrenting somebody elses land to farm

Sam Kade

1chippy wrote: »

maybe your rrenting somebody elses land to farm

Which would be an actual cost.

bob charles

well I could stick what money I have invest in cattle and put in the bank and get 3% for it for doing SFA thats if I had money. I rent 85% of my ground and include an opportunity cost for the owned 15% and the yards, again you could lease this and have to do SFA to get reward for this. Include a 6% interest figure which is €60 on top of a decent animals head after keeping for a year. If you pretend you land is worth nothing then its easy make money. Also factoring a cost of reseeding 10% each year at min. Real cost soon start changing the profit.

Dampintheattic

bob charles wrote: »

well I could stick what money I have invest in cattle and put in the bank and get 3% for it for doing SFA thats if I had money. I rent 85% of my ground and include an opportunity cost for the owned 15% and the yards, again you could lease this and have to do SFA to get reward for this. Include a 6% interest figure which is €60 on top of a decent animals head after keeping for a year. If you pretend you land is worth nothing then its easy make money. Also factoring a cost of reseeding 10% each year at min. Real cost soon start changing the profit.

Bollox, bollox, bollox. If we all included opportunity cost, we would all get out of farming, and lease the land.
What would that do. ......... Drive down the rental value of land. Consequently drive down the capital value of land.
Make Bob and his mates profitable farmers. Can't have that -;)

bob charles

Dampintheattic wrote: »

Bollox, bollox, bollox. If we all included opportunity cost, we would all get out of farming, and lease the land.
What would that do. ......... Drive down the rental value of land. Consequently drive down the capital value of land.
Make Bob and his mates profitable farmers. Can't have that -;)

So if you make €10,000 farming but you could have rented the ground to someone else for €12,000 what price do you put on the fruits of your labour. If your repaying for your bought land where do you include this in your figures

Dampintheattic

bob charles wrote: »

So if you make €10,000 farming but you could have rented the ground to someone else for €12,000 what price do you put on the fruits of your labour. If your repaying for your bought land where do you include this in your figures

Because money isn't everything. Sure half the country should be planted from a pure accounting / financial perspective.
It's not happening though.
I for one would make more by letting my place. However the thought would never cross my mind, so long as the health allows me to farm.
I work full time, minimum 45 hours or week. If I wasn't farming what would I do with the other hundred hours? -;)
Holidays and golf, and all that other bollox stuff, don't interest me! I'd rather a bit of poorly paid hardship any day of the week.

locky76

moy83 wrote: »

Great profit in 3 months . Where did you buy them on paddys day ? :-)

local dairy farmer, weigh scales, farm to farm :-)

locky76

thanks for all the feedback folks, i'll amend the spreadsheet accordingly, I take the point that the financial figures and weight gain may be ambitious but at least it's a start. I suppose this is something i would like to develope year on year to allow me make informed decisions on whether to buy cattle or not and what costs & weight gain are involved.
Point taken that the boys around the ring know this stuff instinctively.
I'll post up rev 1 when i get it done...

bob charles

locky76 wrote: »

thanks for all the feedback folks, i'll amend the spreadsheet accordingly, I take the point that the financial figures and weight gain may be ambitious but at least it's a start. I suppose this is something i would like to develope year on year to allow me make informed decisions on whether to buy cattle or not and what costs & weight gain are involved.
Point taken that the boys around the ring know this stuff instinctively.
I'll post up rev 1 when i get it done...

if you get into this business you have to stay stocked so as to move with the market wether its up or down. Replacement cost determines whether you made a profit or not, as the market constantly moves. I have often being happy to sell stock that were loosing money to replace them with cheaper stock IYKWIM.

locky76

bob charles wrote: »

if you get into this business you have to stay stocked so as to move with the market wether its up or down. Replacement cost determines whether you made a profit or not, as the market constantly moves. I have often being happy to sell stock that were loosing money to replace them with cheaper stock IYKWIM.

yeah I'm begining to appreciate that, it's the margin between selling last years stock and buying this years stock plus the expenses inbetween is the profit. I have a buffer zone in that half of what I finish will be from a suckler to beef with the other half bought in and finished within 9 months.

Sam Kade

bob charles wrote: »

well I could stick what money I have invest in cattle and put in the bank and get 3% for it for doing SFA thats if I had money. I rent 85% of my ground and include an opportunity cost for the owned 15% and the yards, again you could lease this and have to do SFA to get reward for this. Include a 6% interest figure which is €60 on top of a decent animals head after keeping for a year. If you pretend you land is worth nothing then its easy make money. Also factoring a cost of reseeding 10% each year at min. Real cost soon start changing the profit.

What about selling up and sticking the money after CGT in a deposit account in Argentina 20.88% interest at the moment
Of course country risk and Political Risk could change that
http://www.deposits.org/world-deposit-rates.html

Farmer Pudsey

In your first spread sheet you are expecting to buy cattle that will gain 1KG/day for 1.85/kg you also allow them to K/O the same even though they one animal is killed way lighter than the other. Even though one animal is on the farm 3 times longer than the other you are allocating virtually the same costs.

In finishing some cattle finish faster than others high energy ration help to kill cattle earlier. Only the best of Contenintal bullocks kill 55%. My own rule is that a 0=3=/+ animal kill about 50% and ever step you go up or down on the grid allow for a single percent and allow 1% for a fat score. up and down. It not total accurate but it seem to work. Only the best of cattle gain a kg/day on grass alone and you need good silage and ration to gain over over a kg/day indoors along with good cattle. You are allowing 1Kg for cattle that are overwintered when in reality 0.4 is good and 0.6 is exceptional for cattle that are going to grass.

4.65 is an exceptionally good price for cattle at the moment ''R'' grade bullocks, according to the comic the national average for R+3= was 4.67 /kg the week before last and we are at the highest price levels every.

TBH the biggest influences on profitability is buy in price, you input prices you ability to grow cheap grass and you ability to efficently overwinter cattle wheater this is out wintering or having cattle in a shed with good silsge.

tim04750

Fair play to ya, tis the only way to know whats actually goin on in your yard, killout % is an eyeopener

severeoversteer

Gains daily from grass (kg)
0.83
0.83 1.25 0.75 1.00 0.83 1.58 0.58 0.33 0.67 1.17 0.58 0.67 0.50 0.83 0.42 0.50 0.25 0.42

what you can take from this is that no two animals gain the same, you'll always have stragglers that eat your prospect of making a punt:rolleyes:

Farmer Pudsey

severeoversteer wrote: »

what you can take from this is that no two animals gain the same, you'll always have stragglers that eat your prospect of making a punt:rolleyes:

0.83 1.25 0.75 1.00 0.83 1.58 0.58 0.33 0.67 1.17 0.58 0.67 0.50 0.83 0.42 0.50 0.25 0.42

the average is about 0.7kgs/day across all the cattle at the height of the grass season

severeoversteer

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

0.83 1.25 0.75 1.00 0.83 1.58 0.58 0.33 0.67 1.17 0.58 0.67 0.50 0.83 0.42 0.50 0.25 0.42

the average is about 0.7kgs/day across all the cattle at the height of the grass season

I just pulled that from weight spreadsheet of cattle at grass, at finishing at grass I am currently getting between 1.95 - 2.4 kg per day gain for first 60 days and then eases back to about 1.5 kg a day for the next 20 days or so

bob charles

severeoversteer wrote: »

I just pulled that from weight spreadsheet of cattle at grass, at finishing at grass I am currently getting between 1.95 - 2.4 kg per day gain for first 60 days and then eases back to about 1.5 kg a day for the next 20 days or so

there exceptional weight gains to be getting, is it grass only and is there compensatory growth on the animals? when are the other exact figures from?

Damo810

severeoversteer wrote: »

I just pulled that from weight spreadsheet of cattle at grass, at finishing at grass I am currently getting between 1.95 - 2.4 kg per day gain for first 60 days and then eases back to about 1.5 kg a day for the next 20 days or so

2.4kg a day? What are we talking about here, breed, gender, feeding? We're getting over 1-1.5 at the moment, 2.4 seems awful high though..

severeoversteer

current finishing batch of charolais 24-27 month old bullocks, average weight 700 kg give or take, have been fed 5.5kg of 17% pro high maize nut ( 1/2 in morn and 1/2 in evening) and getting new grass every 3 days, old pasture but high ryegrass content, i feed high amount of nuts as it covers mineral needs for animal, for the last 70 days they have been gaining 1.95 - 2.4 kg day. the average from that batch is 2.25kg head a day. this rate of weight gain will cut back to 1.7-1.5 kg for another 20 days and theyll be getting sent to factory then. they have been gaining 0.88kg a day in the shed all winter on silage to appetite and 3kgs rolled barley, animals not starved at any point, as yearlings last year they were on grass only

yesman2000

Anything over 2kg growth/day is phenomenal, well done if you have actually achieved this.

Don't think it's completely accurate to just blatantly ignore the purchase price of animals. Here's an example with made up figures (without other costs);

You bought two animals last year, one for 1,000 and one for 800
You sell them 12 months later: 1500 each.

You buyback two for 1,000 each. Under your assumption both animals have returned the same profit yet clearly the animal you previously bought for 800 has added more to your bottom-line.

I do accept what it costs to replace animals needs to be considered, but what you paid for them also has to be a major consideration.

Farmer Pudsey

severeoversteer wrote: »

current finishing batch of charolais 24-27 month old bullocks, average weight 700 kg give or take, have been fed 5.5kg of 17% pro high maize nut ( 1/2 in morn and 1/2 in evening) and getting new grass every 3 days, old pasture but high ryegrass content, i feed high amount of nuts as it covers mineral needs for animal, for the last 70 days they have been gaining 1.95 - 2.4 kg day. the average from that batch is 2.25kg head a day. this rate of weight gain will cut back to 1.7-1.5 kg for another 20 days and theyll be getting sent to factory then. they have been gaining 0.88kg a day in the shed all winter on silage to appetite and 3kgs rolled barley, animals not starved at any point, as yearlings last year they were on grass only

The gain you are getting is very good even with 5kgs nut. Would not a low protein nut be better 12% as at this time of year grass protein should still be high. I use a high cereal nut. This year it is 40% maize,10% wheat, 30% soya hulls, maize gluten and molasses with1.5% minerals. If cattle have had adequate minerals over the winter my own belief is you only need 1-2% in the finishing diet. I am using a nut rather than a ration.

severeoversteer

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

The gain you are getting is very good even with 5kgs nut. Would not a low protein nut be better 12% as at this time of year grass protein should still be high. I use a high cereal nut. This year it is 40% maize,10% wheat, 30% soya hulls, maize gluten and molasses with1.5% minerals. If cattle have had adequate minerals over the winter my own belief is you only need 1-2% in the finishing diet. I am using a nut rather than a ration.

in theory ive read every where that 12 % pro is adequate and it is. but im just sticking to what i know has worked for me before , the nut has what i want in it and the cattle consistantly do well ,