The Timing of the Anglo Tapes Leak

rumour

All,

The recent anglo tapes are a revelation. BUT where did they come from and why now?

As an ordinary citizen I'm supposed to believe that 'in passing' the garda commissioner can bring up a garda warning to Mr Wallace yet completely forget to mention this issue.

I am expected to believe that tapes in the possession of the garda lets say 3yrs after the event (don't know when they got them) didn't even highlight in a conversation?

Only the most naive person would believe that.

So our government, which we elected have known for some considerable time yet they decided no to tell us. To put this in context it's inconceivable they could brief the Minister for Justice in passing about Mick Wallace and not on this issue.

The question arises, why did the Minister of Justice not let us know about this?

I know we'll have numerous arguments about prejudicing a case, frankly this is horsemanure either they are genuine or they are not.

While the issue at hand is not directly economic, it has enormous implications on the economic direction this government is taking the country. If they are not free to tell us this issue what else are they not telling us?

Following that (and we delve into conspiracy) given that it was evidently not beyond the means of certain individuals in Anglo to 'play' the government AND knowing that the government have access to recorded minor indiscretions of who knows how many citizens of this country, why do we as a nation accept that these people inform us of the truth?

Is it because they rely on the implicit support of the media to mange opinion?
For instance this is valid media today, some may argue that it was the media that told us of these tapes? I would argue that is moot as the Government already knew and thay have the responsibility NOT the media.

So if they could keep this issue quiet for 5yrs and behold they suddenly become available...what are they up to?

I am just interested to hear peoples perspectives on this. I do believe its an economic issue, if we are being fed information on a drip feed basis how can anyone make an informed decision.

I do believe it's ultimately a reflection on how government view managing the masses as opposed to representing them.

Duggys Housemate

rumour wrote: »

All,
The question arises, why did the Minister of Justice not let us know about this?

He shouldn't have known about Wallace.

RichardAnd

In my opinion, the anglo tapes came to light because the states wants to re-run that referendum on inquiries that was rejected some time ago. By throwing those tapes to he masses, a sense of outcry has been created that will be conducive to passing a referendum that is probably required for all sorts of shady crap.

The Irish public are manipulated by the a venal media at the behest of the government. I've seen countless stories on the news or in newspapers that only serve to further a government agenda or drive a wedge between the plebs (i.e., some civil service related story written to rile up Joe Public).

Don't believe anything unless you can back it up for yourself.

Chips Lovell

So the government should have published the Anglo tapes as opposed to let the Gardai and the ODCE carry out their investigation?

Scofflaw

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

So the government should have published the Anglo tapes as opposed to let the Gardai and the ODCE carry out their investigation?

Apparently the government and Central Bank should have been told about the tapes and their contents in an investigation which might have reached into either of those august bodies.

Because that would not prejudice an investigation in any way. Obviously.

cordially,
Scofflaw

_Kaiser_

I wouldn't trust the Gardai with anything as important as this.

Look at the whole penalty points/Clare Daly/Alan Shatter debacle as a recent example. Then there's the countless stories of Garda corruption/incompetence in the not so distant past as well... to be fair I suppose it's not ENTIRELY their fault I suppose, the Gardai is made up of individuals and that's the "Irish way"

I think it is important to find out who released these tapes, why now, and for what purpose/agenda .. but as with so much else in this country I doubt we'll ever find out the complete true story.

It does however highlight again just how we shouldn't be let at the controls of a country.

Scofflaw

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

I wouldn't trust the Gardai with anything as important as this.

Look at the whole penalty points/Clare Daly/Alan Shatter debacle as a recent example. Then there's the countless stories of Garda corruption/incompetence in the not so distant past as well... to be fair I suppose it's not ENTIRELY their fault I suppose, the Gardai is made up of individuals and that's the "Irish way"

I think it is important to find out who released these tapes, why now, and for what purpose/agenda .. but as with so much else in this country I doubt we'll ever find out the complete true story.

It does however highlight again just how we shouldn't be let at the controls of a country.

It's how investigative journalism works - journalists get their hands on things that are in the public interest but to which access is in some way restricted, and publish them. The hue and cry over the source, and the intent of the publication is kind of funny, in that it shows just how unused we are to such a thing - but this is actually what newspapers should be doing all the time.

cordially,
Scofflaw

_Kaiser_

Scofflaw wrote: »

It's how investigative journalism works - journalists get their hands on things that are in the public interest but to which access is in some way restricted, and publish them. The hue and cry over the source, and the intent of the publication is kind of funny, in that it shows just how unused we are to such a thing - but this is actually what newspapers should be doing all the time.

cordially,
Scofflaw

I agree, but the questioning/waiting for the other shoe to drop is probably also due to the point that we don't exactly have a stellar record of "independent" "free" press in this country hence the assumption there has to be a catch/agenda here too.

DublinWriter

The timing of the leak Anglo tapes makes me feel suspicious.

The public will be voting on three referenda in the autumn (Seanad, Patent Law and Court reform) and possibly a fourth (abortion).

The occasion and timing of the Anglo leak feels like a premeditated attempt by the government to whip up public anger in order to stage a successful re-run of the failed 2011 Thirtieth Amendment.

From Wikipedia: The Thirtieth Amendment of the Constitution (Houses of the Oireachtas Inquiries) ... was a bill which, if enacted, would have amended the Constitution of Ireland "in order to provide for the Houses of the Oireachtas to conduct full inquiries".[1] The bill was passed by both houses of the Oireachtas, but rejected at a referendum held on 27 October 2011

hatrickpatrick

If we had a system which made any sense whatsoever, there'd be no need for any sort of parliamentary enquiry into this incident as it would be a criminal matter for the courts.

What would be the point of an enquiry anyway? It'd be just like the tribunals - able to ascertain blame and responsibility but without the teeth to actually punish anyone for their wrongdoing.

Scofflaw

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

I agree, but the questioning/waiting for the other shoe to drop is probably also due to the point that we don't exactly have a stellar record of "independent" "free" press in this country hence the assumption there has to be a catch/agenda here too.

Sure, I'd agree, but I think it's possible in this case that the tapes are simply too good not to use, in a straightforward "will this sell a lot of papers? hell yes!" way.

Meanwhile, the leaker may well have thought the tapes were just too good to languish in the bottom of an evidence drawer, and eventually make an appearance in summary form buried somewhere in a legal document.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Bits_n_Bobs

Suspect some Garda just got frustrated looking at the tapes and the lack of progress on any front and decided to leak them just for the hell of it.

Scofflaw

Bits_n_Bobs wrote: »

Suspect some Garda just got frustrated looking at the tapes and the lack of progress on any front and decided to leak them just for the hell of it.

Borrowing from K-9 here, since I don't watch Vinnie:

K-9 wrote:

The Independent journalist who was on the VB show said it wasn't anything to do with the slow pace of the investigation. That could well mean it is from somebody involved in the investigation, and maybe aware of how complex the work is. They may have finished with the tapes and interviewed the parties about them, so they aren't really of any use to the team now, so best to leak it and show the public.

He also seemed to suggest that others have come forward recently with more information.

A big fraud investigation is very complex. I doubt anyone involved would consider 3 years slow.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Godge

DublinWriter wrote: »

The timing of the leak Anglo tapes makes me feel suspicious.

The public will be voting on three referenda in the autumn (Seanad, Patent Law and Court reform) and possibly a fourth (abortion).

The occasion and timing of the Anglo leak feels like a premeditated attempt by the government to whip up public anger in order to stage a successful re-run of the failed 2011 Thirtieth Amendment.

From Wikipedia: The Thirtieth Amendment of the Constitution (Houses of the Oireachtas Inquiries) ... was a bill which, if enacted, would have amended the Constitution of Ireland "in order to provide for the Houses of the Oireachtas to conduct full inquiries".[1] The bill was passed by both houses of the Oireachtas, but rejected at a referendum held on 27 October 2011

Wow, that is some conspiracy theory. The Government sits on tapes it has for four years and doesn't release them until it decides it wants to re-run a referendum it lost within the last 18 months even though it had the tapes at that time and didn't release them then, I suppose because they thought they had the referendum in the bag but in releasing them they were giving no thought to the effect the tapes would have on their negotiations in Europe.

Was that Homer Simpson on the grassy knoll?:)

DublinWriter

Godge wrote: »

Wow, that is some conspiracy theory. The Government sits on tapes it has for four years and doesn't release them until it decides it wants to re-run a referendum it lost within the last 18 months

Oh yeah, like when did any Irish government ever re-run a referendum a second time to get a positive result...

Godge

DublinWriter wrote: »

Oh yeah, like when did any Irish government ever re-run a referendum a second time to get a positive result...

Just like a conspiracy theory only uses half the facts, you used half my quote to misrepresent my point.

rumour

Godge wrote: »

Wow, that is some conspiracy theory. The Government sits on tapes it has for four years and doesn't release them until it decides it wants to re-run a referendum it lost within the last 18 months even though it had the tapes at that time and didn't release them then, I suppose because they thought they had the referendum in the bag but in releasing them they were giving no thought to the effect the tapes would have on their negotiations in Europe.

Well its possible they sat in a box for quite some time, but only the most naive person would believe them coming into public light was by chance or any ethical journalistic public interest horse manure.

You have a valid point above in that they may have been trying to manage 'opinions' during negotiations, but what a tangled web we weave when we first plan to deceive.

Its the persistent deception that gets me and the continual basing of any reasoned debate, assisted enormously by the media. On any of the major issues that faced this country in the last few years we have legislated in a hurry, in the middle of the night. Debate on almost any level descends into a polarised issue, the recognizable government ideology on one side and the fringe fundamentalists on the other. Needless to say with the continual media use of this tactic the government ideology prevails. Frequently it is wrong. What one good decision has Irish government made in the last few years, which one made Ireland a better place to live. I could live with sacrifice if the plan was clear, these people see that willingness and exploit it rather than use it positively. Their complete lack of reasoned debate and the intellect to adopt those elements even from opposing views is almost breathtaking.

And kenny wants one chamber all to himself to monopolise this further. Again an issue that has no reasoned debate. What media outlet has even bothered to discuss/rationalise why the senad was there in the first place and against those reasons debate where to go next. No all we hear is the money that could be saved.

All this is being done by cute whore spin. Vote YES for jobs.....need I say anymore.

Godge

rumour wrote: »

Well its possible they sat in a box for quite some time, but only the most naive person would believe them coming into public light was by chance or any ethical journalistic public interest horse manure.

You have a valid point above in that they may have been trying to manage 'opinions' during negotiations, but what a tangled web we weave when we first plan to deceive.

Its the persistent deception that gets me and the continual basing of any reasoned debate, assisted enormously by the media. On any of the major issues that faced this country in the last few years we have legislated in a hurry, in the middle of the night. Debate on almost any level descends into a polarised issue, the recognizable government ideology on one side and the fringe fundamentalists on the other. Needless to say with the continual media use of this tactic the government ideology prevails. Frequently it is wrong. What one good decision has Irish government made in the last few years, which one made Ireland a better place to live. I could live with sacrifice if the plan was clear, these people see that willingness and exploit it rather than use it positively. Their complete lack of reasoned debate and the intellect to adopt those elements even from opposing views is almost breathtaking.

And kenny wants one chamber all to himself to monopolise this further. Again an issue that has no reasoned debate. What media outlet has even bothered to discuss/rationalise why the senad was there in the first place and against those reasons debate where to go next. No all we hear is the money that could be saved.

All this is being done by cute whore spin. Vote YES for jobs.....need I say anymore.

You misread and misinterpreted my post in a way that only a conspiracy theorist could.

I never said that they released the tapes to try to control the negotiations. Only a madman would believe that the tapes would have a positive effect on the negotiations.

I have made the point repeatedly that there is absolutely no reason for the government to have released the tapes.

rumour

Godge wrote: »

You misread and misinterpreted my post

Did I really, care to explain, BEFORE you indulge in a personal attacks by albeit good use of language.

Godge wrote: »

in a way that only a conspiracy theorist could.

Godge wrote: »

Only a madman

The above is a classic example of what my post was referring to.

Godge wrote: »

I never said that they released the tapes to try to control the negotiations.

Nor did I. I was more referring to them not being released over the last few years.

Godge wrote: »

Only a madman would believe that the tapes would have a positive effect on the negotiations.

Which is why it is reasonable to assume that the content of the tapes should and would be managed. If that is a reasonable assumption then the obvious question arises that why should they find themselves in the public domain now, why now?

Godge wrote: »

I have made the point repeatedly

You have expressed an opinion but you have not made a credible point ("methinks he doth protest to much") and you have attempted to discredit opposing opinions by personal attacks, and frankly nothing you have posted makes it clear that there was;

Godge wrote: »

absolutely no reason for the government to have released the tapes.

Frankly again, its simply not credible or plausible that the government or its agents sat on this, did not know about this for 4 years (while the minister of justice can know that Mick Wallace was warned for having a mobile in his hand while driving.) and that they just pop up in the media by chance.

gandalf

The leak could have come from an employee of the now disgraced bank. I am sure there are a number of people who have access to the servers that these conversations were recorded on. Given the timeframes involved it makes more sense to me that a disgruntled employee made a copy of the files and sent them to a journalist as a act of revenge.

K.Flyer

I would think that the government would have preferred that the tapes had not come to light.
The conversations on the tapes make a total mockery of our government and the dept of Finance in particular. It has left them looking like fools and feeling embarassed on the international scene.
At the end of the day, while it was F.F. who were in hot seat on the day, F.G. and Labour would have most likely rolled over and taken this cr%p from Anglo and done the same thing.
I would say it was someone who wanted to show the arrogance being displayed by Anglo and its ilk and how the Irish Government were so gullible to take the cr%p from them.

Godge

gandalf wrote: »

The leak could have come from an employee of the now disgraced bank. I am sure there are a number of people who have access to the servers that these conversations were recorded on. Given the timeframes involved it makes more sense to me that a disgruntled employee made a copy of the files and sent them to a journalist as a act of revenge.

Especially when the bank is being wound up, employees are now losing their jobs and can only leak the tapes before they are gone, afterwards they won't have access.