Dog's nail bleeding after groomer clipped them

lovelyjubbly

I'm looking for a bit of feedback. I took my dog to a new groomer to get her nails clipped, I was staying with my Mam so didn't go to our groomer as normal. The nails are black so I won't do it myself, I get that it is harder to clip nails when they are black.

The groomer couldn't clip the nails with me holding her (which is usually how we do it) so she harnessed her up which is fair enough. As I was holding Lois and chatting to her to distract her I didn't notice that the groomer had clipped the quick and she was bleeding until she had finished the first paw. Lois was thrashing about which she doesn't normally do. I realised then that Lois was bleeding from two nails and the lady was starting to clip the back paw. I stopped her and told her about the bleeding, she assures me it's normal and it happens. Lois is freaking out by this stage trying to get away from this lady and I'm now covered in blood too. I try to calm Lois and the lady gets the liquid thing to stop the bleeding and puts it on the wrong paw. I had to tell her it was the wrong paw. At this stage I tell her I want to stop as the dog is too upset. She then tells me that my being upset is upsetting the dog further. I consider myself fairly level headed and I was as calm as one can be in this situation. I only realised something was wrong by Lois' behaviour. She gave me a towel to clean myself up but given how distressed Lois was I just decided to leave.

She attempts to charge me but I'm already walking out the door. The second Lois is back in the car she calms down. I ring the vet in Slane for advice (I thought maybe I'd have to get the liquid or powder thing that stops bleeding) and she told me I didn't need it and to wrap it up. I did that and the bleeding stopped eventually. Lois was out of sorts for the rest of the night and quite sleepy but other than a bit of bleeding the following day she is fine although her nails have been clipped terribly. It's not the way it normally is. I now feel that the woman hasn't a clue based on the poor job clipping the nails, the behaviour- not knowing which paw was hurt and she was quite panicked by it.

So I guess what I want to know is it accurate to say "It's normal, it happens" to two bleeding nails in one paw? Or did I over react and cause my dog to freak out , as she tried to make out it was my fault?

DBB

Jeez! Yes, it happens to the best of us, but to accept it as normal, and to brush it off like that?
Fact is, that's the last time you're going to get Lois's nails trimmed without a fight. The groomer shouldn't have kept going either, and should have administered first aid.
Might I ask, if you're in the Slane area... This wasn't one of the groomers in a big pet store in the general area, was it?

lovelyjubbly

No, it's a lady working from her home. I was half afraid that it would mean tough times ahead for future grooming. She has been good up to this but she was damn near impossible to hold on to after the lady cut her nails.

westies4ever

the first time i got my male dogs nails clipped i made the mistake of getting it done in the vets while he was being vaccinated. big mistake. he cut the quick on at least one.

my dog now completely refuses to let anyone near his nails. sometimes he will let the groomer do a few of them before he freaks out completely but generally he refuses. he is a big strong westie and my groomer says he is the most reluctant she has to deal with.

i am at my wits end with it. the last time they were done i had to get him sedated at the vet to trim them right down as they were ridiculously long but i dont want to have to do that every time!

OP, my dog has black nails too so the cutting of the quick was unfortunate and could happen to anyone but the groomers reaction was awful. poor you and poor doggy.

while slightly off topic has anyone any suggestions for calming my boy down?

Rescue remedy doesnt work a jot anymore. I actually droppped my two at the groomer on the way to work and I know when i collect them at lunchtime the poor girl will be apologising profusely for not getting his nails done.

lovelyjubbly

I was using rescue remedy for Bert, our other dog, he hated the car and I used this to try calm him down. Eventually he copped that rescue remedy = car journey and he would try and hide.

In terms of future nail care, I guess I'm going to have to switch some of our beach walks for walks on footpaths, as that does seem to keep nails neater.

Zulu

Folks, am I missing something? If the dog doesn't like it - why bother get it done? I don't bother with my lab, and I've to see any ill effects! (Ok her dew claws are bloody sharp, but...)

westies4ever

Zulu wrote: »

Folks, am I missing something? If the dog doesn't like it - why bother get it done? I don't bother with my lab, and I've to see any ill effects! (Ok her dew claws are bloody sharp, but...)

i have often wondered is it really that big a deal. his dews claws get 'curley' though and id be worried that they curl round into his foot. im also worried he'll catch a nail on something. the more they arent trimmed, the longer the quick grows as well which just makes them harder to trim in the future.

of course as murphys law goes, my females nails grow slowly and in the winter when we generally walk on pavements, the growth is stunted. his lord ships nails grow like wild fire and pavement walking doesnt stunt the growth at all.

lovelyjubbly

I got it done because we are starting volunteering in a nursing home and was advised that sharp nails can break delicate skin, but I think you're right if it is going to be distressing for her in future I won't do it.

Zulu

westies4ever wrote: »

i have often wondered is it really that big a deal. his dews claws get 'curley' though and id be worried that they curl round into his foot. im also worried he'll catch a nail on something. the more they arent trimmed, the longer the quick grows as well which just makes them harder to trim in the future.

of course as murphys law goes, my females nails grow slowly and in the winter when we generally walk on pavements, the growth is stunted. his lord ships nails grow like wild fire and pavement walking doesnt stunt the growth at all.

TBH, I've, on occasion tried to file her dew claws with a metal file when she's panned out at night - which has worked well to take the point off.

lovelyjubbly wrote: »

I got it done because we are starting volunteering in a nursing home and was advised that sharp nails can break delicate skin, but I think you're right if it is going to be distressing for her in future I won't do it.

I reckon try walking her on concrete for a while each week and try filing her dew claws - my labs claws are grand. (save the dew claws, but I should probably make more of an effort to file them)

Oh and, sorry I should have already said: really sorry to hear about your experience, I'd have been well pissed off if I'd to go through that. Your poor little pup!

westies4ever

yeah see my fella thats freaked out about it he barely lets me touch his paws never mind his nails. even when hes panned out! i keep trying to desensitive him and when hes relaxed beside me i'll talk to him in a nice voice and pet him working my way towards the paws just with the intention of massaging them and then touching the nails but he still wont have any of it!

lovelyjubbly

Zulu wrote: »

I reckon try walking her on concrete for a while each week and try filing her dew claws

Yea I think that's what I'll do, there is concrete footpaths in our estate so I'll walk them both on that more. I'm going to give it a week or so before I try filing her dew claws though!

Zulu

yeah dogs hate people touching their paws! My lab isn't fond of it, but I think training her to give the paw, and practicing that lots has helped. A bit.

aonb

Your poor little Lois.
I guess some dogs nails grow faster/longer than others. Walking on roads/pavements most days has meant my lot never needed clipping (or maybe they're just slow-growing nails)

Ive used Nutri-Kalm from a company in waterford called Nutriscience, its for dogs specifically. A calmer, for stressful occassions. Its non-prescription and my vet has it, but Ive seen it in Tesco too, also online I think.

Its the pits when a bad experience puts them off for life :mad:

Just out of curiosity - years ago (when there were less laws/regulations) dew claws used to be clipped by the breeder when the puppies were born, given that dew claws can cause so many problems to the dog (tearing easily when caught on something etc) is this now illegal?

Zulu

aonb wrote: »

Just out of curiosity - years ago (when there were less laws/regulations) dew claws used to be clipped by the breeder when the puppies were born, given that dew claws can cause so many problems to the dog (tearing easily when caught on something etc) is this now illegal?

I'd hope so. It's a bit needless to amputate them; it's certainly not an option I'd consider. My one certainly uses them when controlling/managing bones/food/toys.

borderlinemeath

I always find with either nails/ear cleaning/first aid, that the promise of really good tasty treats works really well with my pair. Because they're raw fed, it's usually cooked meat or hot dogs.

My female has zero tolerance of any grooming whatsoever and will run when she sees the brushes come out. Nails are done when she's sleepy so puts up less fuss but she's so active that it's mainly the dew claws need attention. She doesn't get scared though, just a dirty look as if to say "fat chance your doing that to me, don't you know I prefer to look and smell unkempt?":D

OP, my male used to exhibit a lot of fearful behaviour when he's getting his ears cleaned. (He had bad ear infections when he was found abandoned) As soon as he saw the bottle of cleaner he would jump onto the sofa and starts licking his lips and he would jump about like a grasshopper rather than get them cleaned. To desensitise him to it, I started taking out the bottle every other day to pretend to clean them. I would pretend to squirt the stuff in each ear and then whoop and holler about how good he is and that it was "all done", and then a nice treat. It's probably taken the guts of a year but now he still jumps up on the couch but he doesn't jump away anymore, he grumbles a bit when I squirt it in, but actually seems to enjoy the massage and cleaning afterwards.

I don't know whether something like that would work, slowly, slowly with Lois and maybe if you got a clippers and literally took millimetres off more often than trying to take it all off at once. If you take a little sliver off every few days the quick naturally retracts anyway. It might be something worth trying to learn how to do, to see will Lois let you do it as her association with the pain may be left at the groomers as she calmed down completely once she left?

The Sweeper

My dog has fast growing talons on his feet. Front dew claws have me demented too - am actually considering elective surgery to have them off. He rips them off twice a year and its incredibly painful for him. I clip his nails myself but can't get them as short as the groomer did when he was in kennels, so I have to assume she nicked the quick. The quick recedes if nicked repeatedly but grows out into the tip if the nails are left long.

lovelyjubbly

borderlinemeath wrote: »

It might be something worth trying to learn how to do, to see will Lois let you do it as her association with the pain may be left at the groomers as she calmed down completely once she left?

That's interesting, I'd be delighted if this was the case. We have clippers (I lacked confidence in using them though) so I can try a treat association thing with them for the next while. I never tried to train her to give the paw but it's also something that I'm going to try. No harm in it!

westies4ever

quick update - my groomer just called and my boy has bit her on the thumb! its worse he's getting. he didnt hurt her - it was more of a warning she said. and she was only trimming one of his legs - says hes in the worst mood shes ever seen him in. shes has recommended i contact a dog behaviorist to see if they can help. hes not at all aggressive but has never really enjoyed being handled or touched unless its on his terms

lovelyjubbly

Well westies4ever, I'm going to start showing her the clipper and give her treats from now on (even though I'm hoping I won't have to get them cut again except for the dew) and I'm going to start training her to give the paw. This seems like good advice to me.

borderlinemeath

lovelyjubbly wrote: »

That's interesting, I'd be delighted if this was the case. We have clippers (I lacked confidence in using them though) so I can try a treat association thing with them for the next while. I never tried to train her to give the paw but it's also something that I'm going to try. No harm in it!

Remember - slowly slowly catchy monkey;)

I would leave the clippers lying around so she can sniff them. Put them on the floor and put a treat beside them and let her take the treat from beside them. Leave them hanging about, like they're just a normal thing that sits there all the time. You don't want her to associate that when she sees them she runs, you firstly need to make sure she isn't frightened of the clippers at all before you go near the nails.

If she's nice and relaxed then pretend to do the nails, do this a few times and treat. Don't actually do them but if she gives the paw then put the clippers to the nail, take it away immediately before she gets a chance to retract her paw, whoop and holler and praise and treat. And repeat. And repeat. And when she's happy with this and expecting the treat, give it a teeny tiny clip and whoop and holler and praise and treat.

It might work, it might not, it works for me anyway, my pair are at the stage now where they trade off a small amount of time being slightly out of their comfort zone with getting something yummy at the end of it. They don't jump for joy when they see ear cleaners or nail clippers but they don't lose the will to live either.

westies4ever

borderlinemeath wrote: »

Remember - slowly slowly catchy monkey;)

I would leave the clippers lying around so she can sniff them. Put them on the floor and put a treat beside them and let her take the treat from beside them. Leave them hanging about, like they're just a normal thing that sits there all the time. You don't want her to associate that when she sees them she runs, you firstly need to make sure she isn't frightened of the clippers at all before you go near the nails.

If she's nice and relaxed then pretend to do the nails, do this a few times and treat. Don't actually do them but if she gives the paw then put the clippers to the nail, take it away immediately before she gets a chance to retract her paw, whoop and holler and praise and treat. And repeat. And repeat. And when she's happy with this and expecting the treat, give it a teeny tiny clip and whoop and holler and praise and treat.

It might work, it might not, it works for me anyway, my pair are at the stage now where they trade off a small amount of time being slightly out of their comfort zone with getting something yummy at the end of it. They don't jump for joy when they see ear cleaners or nail clippers but they don't lose the will to live either.

I think I'm just going to have to sort this myself - i've sorted all his other issues and I'm going to follow your lead. I think if I can get him calmed down and get to the stage where I can clip one nail per day then when he goes to the groomer he just needs his coat doing.

can you recommend a good brand of quality clipper or would I be better with a grinder?

borderlinemeath

westies4ever wrote: »

I think I'm just going to have to sort this myself - i've sorted all his other issues and I'm going to follow your lead. I think if I can get him calmed down and get to the stage where I can clip one nail per day then when he goes to the groomer he just needs his coat doing.

can you recommend a good brand of quality clipper or would I be better with a grinder?

I don't really like the grinders, anything that makes noise for my pair is a no no. Benson doesn't even like my toothbrush! I just use the old fashioned clippers like these.

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR7idCqXxuvEGbfQLcv6YGKvo28KhcrJdLEHDeNKU78KoTA2Y9m2w

westies4ever

i agree on the grinder - the noise would probably freak him out. i'll order a pair and start very slowly and carefully. he had some terrible behavior issues when i got him and i've managed to sort all that so i guess its just a matter of going back to the beginning. some great advice here borderlinemeath - thanks a lot.

DBB

Sophia Yin is a world class behaviorist, and I like how she helps owners deal with smaller but still troublesome behaviour problems... Here's her take on trimming nails, which I have used successfully, to some extent at least.

http://m.youtube.com/index?&desktop_uri=%2F

I've found that some dogs get this fast, hopefully Lois is one of them given she's had just the one bad experience and not had time to build up a big reaction like W4E's fella. But just to note, I've never progressed a dog as fast as she does in the vid. Which might say more about me than her!
On that note W4E, my old Westie was every bit as bad as yours, due to a groomer quicking him multiple times in one sitting when he was young, an experience which made both grooming and nail trimming, *ahem* difficult *ahem* for the rest of his life. I had to learn to both clip and trim, because he could not tolerate a stranger doing it. I used the technique above, albeit at a much slower pace than she does it in the video (it took days, not minutes), and finally we hit a compromise where I could trim his nails, as long as I took it slowly, and gave him ridiculous amounts of chicken!

Also, I think the nail-clipping instrument you use makes a huge difference. I don't like that design the BLM posted, I just find that a lot of dogs dislike it, and I often find it doesn't cut cleanly.
I was tipped off by a local groomer to use a little rabbit claw-trimmers, which is a scissor design, and really small. I generally find you've the nail done before the dog realises what you're at. I'll see can I find a pic, but I bought mine in a pet shop for small money!

Edited to add:

http://www.rabbithutch.org.uk/small-animal-nail-clippers-birds-rodents-rabbits-claw-snippers-scissors/

I have used these on my GSD too, tho they're really not big enough for such a big dog. I use the dog scissors-style trimmer on her.

westies4ever

Thanks DBB, its strange as he was going not too bad even after the vet cut the quick but he has lost all tolerance this last 6 months.

Sometimes I just think hes my grumpy old man (at the age of 3 ). I collected them at lunchtime and he was in the groomers house, sitting on her knee eating chicken with a big grin and snuggling up to her like they're best pals! Thankfully the goomer wasnt a drama queen and made very light of the nip.

http://www.petworlddirect.ie/product/Dogs/Dog-Grooming/Dog-Nail-Clippers/106009868

^^^^ are these something like what you'd recommend - look theres even a westie on the pack!

DBB

westies4ever wrote: »

http://www.petworlddirect.ie/product/Dogs/Dog-Grooming/Dog-Nail-Clippers/106009868

^^^^ are these something like what you'd recommend - look theres even a westie on the pack!

Yes, that's them! The fact that there's a Westie on the pack is a sign, I tells ya!

borderlinemeath

I can't use most of those scissory ones. Being the left handed clutz that I am:o

4 minutes! 4 minutes!
That's very fast, although making it a two person job probably helps a lot.

For Paws

OP, just a thought.

It seems everyone agrees that nail clipping is problematic, even when it's done at home by someone the pet trusts.

How much more stressful it must be for it to be done at the groomers, both for the groomer and the pet.

Maybe use an experienced groomer who knows how to handle stressed pets.
Not letting you hold your pet while being clipped didn't impress me.

DBB

For Paws wrote: »

Maybe use an experienced groomer who knows how to handle stressed pets.
Not letting you hold your pet while being clipped didn't impress me.

You're spot on here For Paws. It never ceases to surprise me how some groomers can deal with even the most difficult dogs, because they are gentle, patient, take their time etc, whilst others seem to leave a trail of destruction behind them!
Many groomers don't like the owners to hold their dog... I always wondered why? I know for certain that my dogs would prefer if I was there. Indeed, would you believe there has been research carried out into this very thing, by the Family Dog Project in Budapest, which found that dogs do not get as stressed in strange situations if their owner is with them. So why not let owners stay? Have these groomers (or trainers!) something to hide?
I'd imagine, to be fair, that some owners would be a nightmare to have around when trying to do anything with their dog, but I'm inclined to think that these are in the minority. I am hearing of more groomers who do allow the owner stay with the dog... Good for them!

westies4ever

^^^^
I agree with this. I tried quite a few before I found the girl that does them now and had a few unplesant experiences. My current groomer is great and is the only groomer that ever managed to trim my boy's nails. Just this last while he's got very grumpy and intolerant. Im hoping he's just going through a phase. I've stayed with him before but it didnt really help - the last time he was groomed, she was behind him clipping the nails on his back paws while i stroked his face and told him what a good boy he was and feeding him bits of chicken. He still freaked out!

tk123

I use one of these - he prefers it to the clippers?! It has variable speed so you can start it low/quieter and move it up. We have a blaster and he follows us if we use the hoover (I think he's thinking it sounds like the blaster so should be getting it pointed at him) so no probs with the noise from the grinder which is mad because he can jumpy.

As for why bother - wait until your dog catches their nail and you'll know why people cut them!