Finally upgrading: Haswell or not?

finlaycm

Hi guys,

I've been using a placeholder PC that cant play anything over TF2. (pentium dual core e2140 GT250)

But I've been putting together some stuff so I can finally upgrade to a PC that can play games for the next generation. So far I have:

Case: Modded Antec 300
PSU: Cosair Tx650 (2 year old, just got off adverts)
DVD- generic
HDD seagate 500GB
GPU: Geforce 250
Windows 8 licence

Now I know the GPU ain't great, but to spread out the cost a bit I'm going to wait till Rome TW2 comes out to upgrade. I'll prob get an SSD then too.

So that means, at the moment, I need A Motherboard, CPU and RAM.
I was thinking of spending something like 350 on those 3 items

My real question is should I go with a Haswell processor?
The motherboards seem quite expensive to me.

Also I have no experience with O/C and am unsure of it's real world benefits but am willing to try it if it's worth it.

Or should I go with Ivy bridge? It would be easy if the sockets were the same but alas.

I was thinking of looking out for 2nd hand cpu/motherboard on adverts, are 2nd hand CPUs a bad idea? Haswell realistically can only be picked up new, from all the links in these threads I see that hardwareversand is the weapon of choice.

jimmycrackcorm

I would definitely get a boot ssd or b bigger if possible

finlaycm

@Jimmy Yes I actually plan to get a 240GB whenever I can, was looking at the Samsung 840. I'd imagine it's not something I want to get 2nd hand. I was just going to wait a couple of months and do another fresh install of windows once I do.

BloodBath

Haswell isn't worth the money imo. A combo like this, while over your budget, would be better. You could drop the after market cpu cooler for now if you wanted to save a bit. That combo will do a 4.5ghz overclock pretty easily in most cases.

Item|Price
Intel Core i5-3570K Box, LGA1155|€202.90
Cooler Master Hyper 212 EVO - Intel/AMD|€29.18
ASRock Z77 Pro3, Sockel 1155, ATX|€81.89
8GB-Kit G-Skill RipJaws PC3-12800U CL9|€58.47
Shipping|€18.99
Total|€391.43

If you don't want to overclock then something like this is the best you will do inside your budget. That xeon is the same as an i7 3770 just running 100mhz slower and without an igp. It may turn out to be a better gaming processor than even an overclocked 3570k if games start using more threads.

Item|Price
8GB-Kit G-Skill RipJaws PC3-12800U CL9|€58.47
Intel Xeon E3-1230v2, boxed, LGA1155|€201.31
ASRock ZH77 Pro3, Sockel 1155, ATX|€68.71
Shipping|€18.99
Total|€347.48

finlaycm

@Bloodbath,

that looks similar to what I had thought about getting before Haswell. I knowledge didn't go far enough to choose the correct RAM and Mainboard. It's a little bit annoying that I won't be able to upgrade the CPU in years to come but its pretty solid right?

@Everyone If I was to go whole hog (on the savings) and get The SSD and GPU what are highly recommended ones, with a max budget of 350 for both and really wanting a 240/256GB SSD (bringing the whole thing to around 700)

BloodBath

The thing is you won't need to upgrade your cpu within it's sockets lifetime. If you bought a 4670k haswell I can guarantee you that you would not use that socket to upgrade. There's been less than 10% jumps in performance in the last few generations. I don't see that changing anytime soon.

A good cpu will last you 3-5 years. At that stage there will be several new generations of procs and at least 1 - 2 socket revisions.


Assuming the rig is for gaming then I'd go with something like this on a budget of €700.

Item|Price
8GB-Kit G-Skill RipJaws PC3-12800U CL9|€58.47
Intel Xeon E3-1230v2, boxed, LGA1155|€201.31
ASRock ZH77 Pro3, Sockel 1155, ATX|€68.71
Powercolor HD7950 PCS+ 3072MB GDDR5|€261.21
Samsung SSD 840 120GB SATA 6Gb/s|€81.99
Shipping|€18.99
Total|€690.68

finlaycm

Thats why I love this board. I would never of even considered the Xeon. I always heard they weren't good for gaming but never knew why didn't know they were essentially the same as an i7

Anyone out there use a Xeon for gaming?

Are you assuming games will use more hyperthreading because of the upcoming xbone and Ps4 running of slow clocked 8 core processors?

I assume that the only difference in the mainboards are there ability to overclock?

Holy **** forgot how expensive GPU were! as a matter of interest what is the nVidia equivalent? I think I would push the price up of the build so I can get a 240GB SSD that I'll be able to install games on.

BloodBath

At least a couple of others have bought the xeons here recently.

Yes I know a couple of the console cores will be reserved for running the os and other applications on it but there should still be around 6 free for games.

I am unsure of the zh77 capabilities as I can't find a definitive review of it but I think it still has overclocking features. I've read conflicting reports on the overclockability of the xeon as well. Some have reported overclocks to 4.1ghz using a feature on boards for overclocking non k intels 4 bins above their turbo frequency.

That 7950 is a high end card with good overclocking headroom. Performance wise the equivalent Nvidia card would be the more expensive 670gtx which the 7950 outperforms. A 7950 with a decent cooler for €260 new is a steal anyway.

finlaycm

And if I overclock the Xeon even to 3.7 or something I should get a cooler?

Anyway I guess this comes back to my original question

Do you recommend O/C'ing what are the gaming/working benifits? and would an O/C'ed 3570K be a lot better than that Xeon?

thegame983

@bloodbath. i've seen you recommend that 7950 before (i think). Any particular reason? Is it better then these ones I've been looking at?

http://www.hardwareversand.de/3072+MB/55042/Gigabyte+Radeon+HD+7950%2C+3GB+GDDR5%2C+PCI-Express.article

or

http://www.scan.ie/products/3gb-msi-radeon-hd7950-twin-frozr-oc-be-5000mhz-gddr5-gpu-880mhz-1792-cores-dvi-hdmi-mdportplusfree-g

or is it just the better price?

BloodBath

There's not a huge difference to be honest. In most games there will be 0 difference between the two. In some cpu bound games, like starcraft 2 which only uses 2 cores, then it can be a noticeable increase.

However the turbo frequency of the xeon is 3.7ghz. An overclocked 3570k will be around 4.5ghz so it's still around 700-800mhz difference on those 2 cores which nets it higher frame rates. Starcraft 2 is an exception to the rule really though. Most games are gpu bound.

If the xeon can be overclocked to 4.1 then that gap is even smaller but I don't know for sure if it can.

If and when games start using more than 4 threads then the xeon should have the advantage.

thegame983 wrote: »

@bloodbath. i've seen you recommend that 7950 before (i think). Any particular reason? Is it better then these ones I've been looking at?

http://www.hardwareversand.de/3072+MB/55042/Gigabyte+Radeon+HD+7950%2C+3GB+GDDR5%2C+PCI-Express.article

or

http://www.scan.ie/products/3gb-msi-radeon-hd7950-twin-frozr-oc-be-5000mhz-gddr5-gpu-880mhz-1792-cores-dvi-hdmi-mdportplusfree-g

or is it just the better price?

They all have good coolers. Is it better? There's not much in it to be honest. It was more of a price point. There are lot's of models with good coolers these days. The quality of silicon you get will determine your outcome more than the cooler will most of the time. The club3d royalkings seemed to be binned higher than most i've seen. 1200-6000 seems to be a pretty standard overclock on those.

finlaycm

Well I have to say, It does make sense, and those boards definitely support xeon (cause they just say core i3 etc)?

And correct me if I'm wrong, there are 2 types of Overclocking:

unrestricted, you need a K series and a z77 (ivy) or a Z87 (haswell)

moderate O/C with non K processors including Xeon and you need a Zh77 chipset.

If I wasn't going to over clock would I stand to save much money (or loose much speed) by goign with a non-K i5 (ivy or haswell).

Sorry for all these questions but I feel like I am only at the lower end of usable knowledge and a little more would be of great use, considering I'm about to drop 700e+

BloodBath

Yes the board supports those xeons.

There are a few types of overclocking. The standard these days is multiplier overclocking which needs a z77 (sandy, ivy), z78 (haswell) board and a k series chip. This lets you change the multi for easy overclocks.

There's the turbo overclock, I can't remember the proper name for it, which will overclock non k chips 4 bins above their turbo frequency. Using the xeon as an example it's stock speed is 3.3ghz, turbo of 3.7, the overclock would bring the multi up to 41 giving it a speed of 4.1ghz. I don't know for sure if this works with xeons though or only non k i5's and i7's.

There's blck overclocking then as well which is more like the old school method of overclocking and isn't used much on modern boards or cpus as they no longer have the features to make this safe but it is still possible to do small overclocks like this. It's even possible to use it in combination with the turbo overclock on non k chips but I'd avoid it tbh.

You can get an i5 3330 for €160. Compared to the xeon it's 200mhz slower, it's turbo is 400mhz slower and it doesn't have hyper threading. It does have an igp though. You should also be able to take it 4 bins above it's turbo to 3.7ghz. You wouldn't need an after market cooler for a small overclock like this.

As for the boards I think the zh77 has the same overclocking features as the more expensive z77 but I'm not 100%. It would be a pretty misleading board name if it didn't.

marco_polo

Looks like it might be a misleading name , the "No-K OC" is unchecked on the HZ77 feature list, which is the bin method.

http://www.asrock.com/mb/compare.asp?SelectedModel=Z77+Pro3&SelectedModel=Z75+Pro3&SelectedModel=H77+Pro4%2FMVP&SelectedModel=ZH77+Pro3

Incidentally I wonder where the z75 has gone, it was on HWVS for a few weeks and was a super price.

BloodBath

Thanks marco. That's a load of balls.

finlaycm

So the z77 pro 3 give me a lot more options when it comes to OC, If I leave out the cooler, I can always pick up one when people upgrade to the new boards? Or do coolers change when the socket changes? Or I could get away with a moderate non-K overclock of the xeon without a new cooler.

Have to say I am finding it hard to find sites that reviewed the Xeon as a game CPU.

finlaycm

I'm doing a bit of reading and people are saying that not all mobo accept Xeons, any way to check which ones do/don't?

http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1723151

finlaycm

No wait I looked at the spec sheet and Asus do support Xeons, http://www.asrock.com/mb/Intel/ZH77%20Pro3/?cat=CPU

I guess there is no reason not to go with that set up!

finlaycm

Right so, I'm going to look and see if I can get a good second hand motherboards, and then buy the xeon and the rest.

Also would this be better than the 7950?

http://www.hardwareversand.de/2048+MB/82942/ZOTAC+GeForce+GTX+760%2C+2GB+DDR5.article

BloodBath

I didn't realise they were out yet. They are basically a rebadged overclocked 670gtx.

The price is good but I wouldn't get that model. The cooler is crap. The zotac is priced well and has some of the highest clocks.

http://www.hardwareversand.de/2048+MB/82940/ZOTAC+GeForce+GTX+760+AMP%21+Edition%2C+2GB+DDR5.article

For that price I'd probably go for the 760.

finlaycm

Buying a asrock z77 extreme4 tonight for 70e. I think it's in my budget and its a better board for the same price...would be a shame not to get something than can overclock...

I take it that it accepts the same type of RAM?

BloodBath

Yes. It's a good board that supports sli as well so you could add a second card in future if you wanted.