A Few Thoughts On Irish Landlords & Owning Property in Ireland

gdkaufmann

I'm still fairly new to Ireland, and am still learning what I don't know, but I have had some recent experience ( 2011-2013) that may help some folks.

I'd also love to get an "Irish perspective" on Irish property ownership and landlord practices.

You'll find my thoughts here:

http://anamericanindublin.com/2013/06/23/a-pot-of-gold-or-not-immigrant-property-ownership-and-problems-with-irish-landlords/

Cheers.

beauf

You briefly touch on some interesting ideas, then fall back to the same old stereotypes and clichés.
So delete those, and and expand on the rest and you might get a better response.

athtrasna

As a landlord I actually find it insulting. You take stereotypes and make it reflect on all of us. My tenants live in a larger and much more luxurious house than I do and it's my job to ensure that their home is well maintained.

djimi

You seem to base your opinions, especially on the rental scene, more on heresay than on experience.

gdkaufmann

beauf wrote: »

You briefly touch on some interesting ideas, then fall back to the same old stereotypes and clichés.
So delete those, and and expand on the rest and you might get a better response.

Beauf,

Thanks for responding. I know I've got some "clichés" in there. But, sadly if the ones you are referring to are the ones I'm thinking of, they are, at least partially born out by experience.

Could you elaborate and tell me which ones you are referring to?

Thansk.

gdkaufmann

athtrasna wrote: »

As a landlord I actually find it insulting. You take stereotypes and make it reflect on all of us. My tenants live in a larger and much more luxurious house than I do and it's my job to ensure that their home is well maintained.

athtrasna, Obviously you aren't one of the culprits, and not all Irish landlords are horrendous, but there is plenty of anecdotal evidence to show that local landlords are, on average, nowhere near as competent as you.

gdkaufmann

djimi wrote: »

You seem to base your opinions, especially on the rental scene, more on heresay than on experience.

Djimi - I've lived here for two years and spoken to numerous immigrants and locals alike. How is that not experience?

beauf

Its very limited one sided experience. If you want reasoned discussion you have to put some effort into it rather than taking a narrow view point and shrinking it to fit the caricature. These one sided diatribes are a dime a dozen. TBH none of it is interesting.

You seem to be missing the point about what is interesting. The contrast between the US experience and the Irish one, would be something. Or your interest in Irish property ownership, whats that all about. Most of the other stuff is the same the world over.

The_Conductor

It really is playing into stereotyping in a ridiculous manner.

Yes- older properties do have crap plumbing and wiring- and very often landlords who really couldn't care less. Newer properties conform to different building regulations however- and by and large are far easier to reside in (apartments aside).

New comers to areas don't always want to buy property- thankfully a great many people have learnt lessons from the 1994-2008 period, and aren't nearly as ham headed as they once were- renting may not be that tangible link to the community that you think it is- but then again, buying isn't necessarily either.

Bureaucratic and banking obstacles? I guess you've never had the misfortune to try to help with purchasing property in Italy, Portugal or any of a wide range of other countries? Yes- there are processes to go through- and yes, it can take weeks (or even months if there are issues with title documents)- but its a damn sight easier than in many other countries (and some US states).

I agree with you- about buying being a bad idea if you have no emotional link to the area (I'll beg to differ on the cultural part- as from personal experience, I've found not having a cultural link to be an excellent point to explore my surroundings, to learn about those around me- and to discover little nuggets of curiosity that perhaps even locals have forgotten about). If you have no emotional link to a particular area- you're not going to be happy there- anyone who tells you otherwise, is delusional.

The Irish countryside- is not a wholly owned subsidiary of Irish culture. Its a patchwork of vast differences, wild beauty, picturesque landscapes, busy towns, small rural communities, bustling university cities- its not a homogeneous place at all- and its a pleasure exploring all these differences.

Land ownership in Ireland has always been fraught with difficulties. People do get notions about who should be able to buy a farm that comes up for sale- and you will have trouble if you break these pre-conceived notions. Its not very long ago that machinery and buildings would mysteriously go up in flames or a forest burn down- if it was owned by someone considered to be an outsider (or even worse- someone from Dublin).

Ireland has a rather unique and inept form of government- where everything goes back to the local parish. Pump-parish politics have to have been invented by the Irish- and my own thoughts are that its modelled on the GAA and the manner in which it pitches every little village against its neighbour, every county against each other- and every county together, against Dublin. Sure- there are ridiculous examples of pork barrel politics in the US- a rather infamous bridge that goes no-where comes to mind- however we only need look to parts of Kerry to beat any of the US examples you might care to share.

There are plenty of good Irish landlords, and indeed good tenants in the country- however the actions of a cadre of accidental landlords, amateur landlords who have no idea of the law, and how it applies to their rights and obligations and those of their tenants- has sullied the reputations of very many people who are professional in the utmost, and treat their properties and tenants with the care and dedication they deserve. As by some accounts up to 40% of buy-to-let mortages are in arrears- hopefully once repossessions really begin in earnest- these amateurs will be chased from the profession, and people who really know what they're doing, take their places.

The wealthy in Ireland have not always owned land. Its always been dangerous to conspicuously display wealth in Ireland- the wealthy in Ireland have as a rule, always emigrated (and indeed done very well for themselves elsewhere).

We can't blame our history of repression on the pigheaded herd mentality that drove the euphoria associated with the property boom. Hell- it wasn't even our first property burst (think what happened to land prices after we joined the EEC as it then was called). Nor was it the first time the state had to step in and rescue our banks (something AIB keep very quiet about).

If you haven't already done so- I'd highly recommend you get hold of a few of David McWilliams books- esp. his 2005 book 'The Pope's Children' which explores the psyche behind the 'Celtic Tiger' and the nouveau rich it generated. He followed this up with an award winning 3 part documentary in 2007-2008- entitled 'In Search of the Pope's Children'- which is also worth watching (its still in the RTE shop).

While I can see where you're coming from with your blog- and indeed agree with you on many points- on other points, its very plain that you had preconceived expectations and notions- and when these weren't met, you tried to apply your experiences both from here and from home- to explain why things aren't as you expected them to be.

D3PO

awfuly clichéd piece with little to no insight and based on hearsay and anecdotes.

gdkaufmann

The_Conductor wrote: »

It really is playing into stereotyping in a ridiculous manner.

Yes- older properties do have crap plumbing and wiring- and very often landlords who really couldn't care less. Newer properties conform to different building regulations however- and by and large are far easier to reside in (apartments aside).

New comers to areas don't always want to buy property- thankfully a great many people have learnt lessons from the 1994-2008 period, and aren't nearly as ham headed as they once were- renting may not be that tangible link to the community that you think it is- but then again, buying isn't necessarily either.

Bureaucratic and banking obstacles? I guess you've never had the misfortune to try to help with purchasing property in Italy, Portugal or any of a wide range of other countries? Yes- there are processes to go through- and yes, it can take weeks (or even months if there are issues with title documents)- but its a damn sight easier than in many other countries (and some US states).


The Irish countryside- is not a wholly owned subsidiary of Irish culture. Its a patchwork of vast differences, wild beauty, picturesque landscapes, busy towns, small rural communities, bustling university cities- its not a homogeneous place at all- and its a pleasure exploring all these differences.

Land ownership in Ireland has always been fraught with difficulties. People do get notions about who should be able to buy a farm that comes up for sale- and you will have trouble if you break these pre-conceived notions. Its not very long ago that machinery and buildings would mysteriously go up in flames or a forest burn down- if it was owned by someone considered to be an outsider (or even worse- someone from Dublin).



If you haven't already done so- I'd highly recommend you get hold of a few of David McWilliams books- esp. his 2005 book 'The Pope's Children' which explores the psyche behind the 'Celtic Tiger' and the nouveau rich it generated. He followed this up with an award winning 3 part documentary in 2007-2008- entitled 'In Search of the Pope's Children'- which is also worth watching (its still in the RTE shop).

While I can see where you're coming from with your blog- and indeed agree with you on many points- on other points, its very plain that you had preconceived expectations and notions- and when these weren't met, you tried to apply your experiences both from here and from home- to explain why things aren't as you expected them to be.

Dear Conductor,

Thanks for the feedback.

Actually I have found that the construction quality is exactly the opposite of what you suggest. While much of the wiring and plumbing in older Irish construction is antiquated and now needs to be replaced/upgraded (as it often does if you own a house for more than a few decades). Yet, the overall "bones" of older Irish construction is actually quite good. By comparison, the Celtic Tiger construction and recent work done since 2008 is almost universally bad. Regardless of new "regulations" everyone was ( and is still) out to turn a quick buck and the work is, in my experience ( and in the experience of many of the local tradesmen I've spoken to) mostly shoddy and cheap.

When I said that country culture in Ireland is a wholly owned subsidiary I meant that it is part of the overall Irish culture, but is very much its own thing, and must be approached as such.

Ireland may in fact be better at immigrant landownership than other countries. But my larger point in the blog post as that immigrant land ownership is often very difficult.

And, honestly, the "we're not as bad as other places" attitude is exactly the "It works well enough" mindset that I think holds Ireland back to a great extent. That, more than anything, frustrates me because I do see so much potential here.

Thanks for the David McWilliams suggestions. For someone writing about the topic I've chosen that's an invaluable tip.

beauf

Small towns are the same everywhere. As a student I remember getting the greyhound from SF to LA and stopping in some of the towns on the way, and heading out to Carmel. In one town, we couldn't get a drink in any bar in the town. The motel would only rent a room for one night to us. Basically get out. Like something out of a movie.

Construction in Ireland has always been poor. Even before the boom. Its effectively unregulated. In my opinion it comes down to the mindset of getting around rules, and the powers that be. I think it springs from being invaded and rule by people/forces for so long. It also has an impact on the easygoing mentality. In countries where they are sticklers for rules they are generally not that easy going. So Ireland is easy going, but as a result its mostly unregulated (well not enforced). Its also very corrupt.

Most of the issues pretty much stem from the same source.

complicit

Split / dual taps is a general British thing , not Irish .

gdkaufmann

beauf wrote: »

Small towns are the same everywhere. As a student I remember getting the greyhound from SF to LA and stopping in some of the towns on the way, and heading out to Carmel. In one town, we couldn't get a drink in any bar in the town. The motel would only rent a room for one night to us. Basically get out. Like something out of a movie.

Construction in Ireland has always been poor. Even before the boom. Its effectively unregulated. In my opinion it comes down to the mindset of getting around rules, and the powers that be. I think it springs from being invaded and rule by people/forces for so long. It also has an impact on the easygoing mentality. In countries where they are sticklers for rules they are generally not that easy going. So Ireland is easy going, but as a result its mostly unregulated (well not enforced). Its also very corrupt.

Most of the issues pretty much stem from the same source.

Beauf,

Thanks for that.

I completely agree.

It's one of the things that really breaks my heart for Ireland. The very thing that makes Ireland such a wonderfully relaxed and pleasant place to live is simultaneously a thing holding Ireland back from reaching its full potential.
But would its potential be so evident if not for that very thing.....

I say "a thing" because it's clearly not the only thing.

Thanks for discussing this.

Cheers.

gdkaufmann

complicit wrote: »

Split / dual taps is a general British thing , not Irish .

Complicit,

Regardless, why hang onto them if they are outdated, and unhygienic, particularly if there is an easy alternative?

beauf

Because plumbing in the country costs a fortune and the trademen in general are poor, and unregulated. As a result you go for KISS. As simply and as basic as possible.

valleyoftheunos

gdkaufmann wrote: »

athtrasna, Obviously you aren't one of the culprits, and not all Irish landlords are horrendous, but there is plenty of anecdotal evidence to show that local landlords are, on average, nowhere near as competent as you.

"anecdotal evidence" is evidence of nothing but the existence of anecdotes so best not to rely on it for anything else.

With regards to purchasing property in this country the actual process is reasonably streamlined at this stage and is likely to become even more so in the next few years as eConveyancing becomes a reality. Contrary to your suggestion that it is another example of the "ah sure it's grand" mentality that pervades parts of our society I believe it is the very opposite, it has changed steadily and been improved constantly over the last 30 to 40 years. That might not be fast enough for you but the phrase "legislate in haste repent at leisure" applies here particularly when the original process was merely slow rather than broken.

I don't accept "ah sure its grand" when I hear it but I also know that the relaxed attitude of Irish people that everyone including ourselves loves is a double edged sword, nice and chilled out people are unlikely to be proactive about the frequency of buses or eager to provide services outside regular working hours.

I worked with visiting American students for a number of years and I'll say the same thing to you I said to all of them:

Let go, give it up. If things like a post office that opens at times that suit their customers and buses that run on time are important to you, you will find yourself battling up hill for all of your time here. What is more, you wont change anything only make yourself unhappy.

valleyoftheunos

gdkaufmann wrote: »

Complicit,

Regardless, why hang onto them if they are outdated, and unhygienic, particularly if there is an easy alternative?

What is outdated or unhygienic about split taps in a Bathroom?

gdkaufmann

valleyoftheunos wrote: »

What is outdated or unhygienic about split taps in a Bathroom?

valleyoftheunos,

With split taps you either scald yourself with hot water or have to use cold water to effectively clean your hands.

Otherwise you have to insert the stopper to fill the sink with warm water. For everyday rinse and go that may be fine. But if you've ever got a baby, pet, or anyone with intestinal distress in the house, chances are you'll get something fecal (or otherwise unhygienic) on your hands. Now, unless you want to scald yourself, you've got to marinate your hands in a warm stew of the very fecal matter (or acetone, or whatever other toxic/foul substance you happen to have gotten into) that you are trying to remove.

In countries with more civilized plumbing, every tap in the house (and not just the kitchen tap- as is the case in most houses in Ireland) will have a mixer tap, which means you can adjust the heat appropriately and simply wash the unhygienic material off of your hands and down the drain (no stewing in fecal matter).

Hope that helps.

valleyoftheunos

gdkaufmann wrote: »

valleyoftheunos,

With split taps you either scald yourself with hot water or have to use cold water to effectively clean your hands.

Otherwise you have to insert the stopper to fill the sink with warm water. For everyday rinse and go that may be fine. /but if you've ever got a baby, pet, or anyone with intestinal distress in the house, chances are you'll get something fecal on your hands. Now, unless you want to scald yourself you've got to marinate your hands in a warm stew of the very fecal matter ( or acetone, or whatever other toxic/foul substance you happen to have gotten into) that you are trying to remove.

In countries with more civilized plumbing, every tap in the house (and not just the kitchen tap- as is the case in most houses in Ireland) will have a mixer tap, which means you can adjust the heat appropriately and simply wash the unhygienic material down the drain.

Hope that helps.

I've been to lots of civilised countries including the US but I've never seen the Emboldened section to be true. Whats more I've never heard anyone complain about it before. I don't know what you get on your hands that soap and water can't remove or perhaps your standard for having clean hands is closer in fact to having sterile hands but I do know that its a gross exaggeration to describe split taps as unhygienic. if they were as unhygienic as you describe they simply wouldn't be produced, we'd be sick all the time! laws would be in place! Especially in those countries not burdened with medieval plumbing such as ours!

What you are actually describing is an inconvenience not a lack of hygiene.

gdkaufmann

valleyoftheunos wrote: »

I've been to lots of civilised countries including the US but I've never seen the Emboldened section to be true. Whats more I've never heard anyone complain about it before. I don't know what you get on your hands that soap and water can't remove or perhaps your standard for having clean hands is closer in fact to having sterile hands but I do know that its a gross exaggeration to describe split taps as unhygienic. if they were as unhygienic as you describe they simply wouldn't be produced, we'd be sick all the time! laws would be in place! Especially in those countries not burdened with medieval plumbing such as ours!

What you are actually describing is an inconvenience not a lack of hygiene.

valleyoftheunos,

I lived the US for 45 years, and except for the very occasional old farmhouse, split taps are almost never seen in private homes.

Read more carefully. It's not that soap and water won't remove those things, it's the fact that with split taps, unless you want to scald yourself with hot water, you have to soak your hands in the very thing you are trying to remove. Not very bright.

And the reason that it persists is not because it's clean and safe, but because it's cheap and easy.

beauf

Hot water sitting in the pipe shouldn't be scalding. It would take a minute for hot water to come from the tank. Also the water in the tank would never be scalding unless you've the thermostat set to high and its being heated constantly.

valleyoftheunos

gdkaufmann wrote: »

valleyoftheunos,

I lived the US for 45 years, and except for the very occasional old farmhouse, split taps are almost never seen in private homes.

Read more carefully. It's not that soap and water won't remove those things, it's the fact that with split taps, unless you want to scald yourself with hot water, you have to soak your hands in the very thing you are trying to remove. Not very bright.

And the reason that it persists is not because it's clean and safe, but because it's cheap and easy.

Never been to a very old farmhouse in the US but I have seen lots of split taps in other places there.

I read and understood your post perfectly and I simply think its daft and unjustified to complain to such an extent about split taps. very hard to take you seriously when you describe them as less civilised and unhygienic.

I'm sure the reasons why these dangerous and unamerican faucets continue to proliferate are far more nuanced than merely being cheap and easy. Perhaps the fact that they are perfectly servicable is one and certainly it is not difficult to imagine that on a regular basis more expensive split taps are chosen for bathrooms over more affordable mixer taps. As a people we may be cheap sometimes and even easy but we do have other motivations in life

I for one am not only glad but proud to live in a country where I am free to have whatever sort of taps I want in my house with fear of persecution or judgment by my neighbours and guests. Something I clearly could not do in those countries with more civilised plumbing.

Queen-Mise

What a truly awful article. It is ideal material for The Mail Online if that is your audience. But if you want to be taken seriously then up the quality a LOT.

You are clumping so many different ideas together that should never be compared and contrasted in that way, or else to get the result you are getting.

You are jumping from and too so many ideas, not backing up any of them. And then throwing in emotional responses for ??

I wouldn't be reading anything else by you - if that is the quality of stuff I would be reading.

gdkaufmann

Queen-Mise wrote: »

What a truly awful article. It is ideal material for The Mail Online if that is your audience. But if you want to be taken seriously then up the quality a LOT.

You are clumping so many different ideas together that should never be compared and contrasted in that way, or else to get the result you are getting.

You are jumping from and too so many ideas, not backing up any of them. And then throwing in emotional responses for ??

I wouldn't be reading anything else by you - if that is the quality of stuff I would be reading.

Queen-Mise,

It's quite amusing that carp at me for " not backing up any of them", yet you yourself can't be arsed to give any specifics about the things I've rambled so wildly about and not backed up.

Hmmm....

who the fug

Why don't you buy a mixer tap and fit it, also what point are you making

Queen-Mise

gdkaufmann wrote: »

Queen-Mise,

It's quite amusing that carp at me for " not backing up any of them, yet you yourself can't be arsed to give any specifics about the things I've rambled so wildly about and not backed up.

Hmmm....

I seriously considered pulling the article apart and doing that. I decided against it as I would be then writing your article for you.

So no.

beauf

I said something similar earlier.

beauf wrote: »

...If you want reasoned discussion you have to put some effort into it ...

There really nothing specific to Ireland in it, that's just thrown in there to get attention. There's nothing really in there of substance to reply to. You only stuck it this forum to get attention. It would be better in the after hours forum.

Electric Sheep

valleyoftheunos wrote: »

I've been to lots of civilised countries including the US but I've never seen the Emboldened section to be true. Whats more I've never heard anyone complain about it before. I don't know what you get on your hands that soap and water can't remove or perhaps your standard for having clean hands is closer in fact to having sterile hands but I do know that its a gross exaggeration to describe split taps as unhygienic. if they were as unhygienic as you describe they simply wouldn't be produced, we'd be sick all the time! laws would be in place! Especially in those countries not burdened with medieval plumbing such as ours!

What you are actually describing is an inconvenience not a lack of hygiene.

I've never NOT seen it be true in the US. Americans expect things to actually be fit for the purpose.

beauf

That must be why they don't build tornado proof houses in tornado alley.

looksee

And they have those incredibly stupid little electrical sockets and plugs that fall out of the wall at every opportunity.

looksee

Ok, I have just read the blog. What a load of cobblers. And I am not Irish, though I have lived here 40 years. Your main gripe seems to be that buying property does not mean that you are automatically taken into the bosom of the local community. Right. Why would the fact that you own your house rather than rent it make any difference to your neighbours' attitude towards you?

Its not the same here as at home? Right! again, if you want things to be just like at home, well the US is thataway.

If you are writing for the benefit of people at home, and don't want derisive comments from locals here, why draw attention to it on an Irish chat site. There must be things that you like about Ireland or you wouldn't be here, so why not look at the glass being half full rather than half empty? You are probably right about some of the things you talk about, its a bit hard to tell what your argument is exactly, but really, it does sound a bit petty.

L1011

gdkaufmann wrote: »

Regardless, why hang onto them if they are outdated, and unhygienic, particularly if there is an easy alternative?

Plumbing standards in other countries generally have a non-return valve; ours either didn't or still don't. Old mixer taps were very prone to putting hot water back in to the cold, which may or may not have been the mains supply.

Other than that - there's a mass amount of sinks with two taps out there, and people don't like change.

I HATE the bastards myself, I'm currently trying to decide whether to redo the entire bathroom or just the sink to get a proper mixer installed.

beauf wrote: »

Construction in Ireland has always been poor.

Most 1930s-1970s tract houses, maybe a bit later with social housing, houses in Ireland are built to extremely high standards. Believe me, I've done in enough drills on them in a previous job... it was only in the 1980s recession that standards started to seriously slip from what I can see. And for some reason they've not improved since.

valleyoftheunos

Electric Sheep wrote: »

I've never NOT seen it be true in the US. Americans expect things to actually be fit for the purpose.

Are you genuinely suggesting that two seperate taps are not fit for the purpose of performing ones ablutions in the morning or washing your hands after using the toilet?:eek:

With regard to the OP I must apologise for the snide comments in my previous post. Having said that they felt broadly in line with the linked article and several other blog posts I read, the tone of which is genrally "I'm brand new in this country but here's what wrong with it... (spoilers: Things aren't done the way they are in the US)." given that such an approach is one sided and unfair it's hardly surprising that it doesn't meet with much approval here. perhaps with some balance and plenty of charm it might be different. Bill Bryson would be a good example of being successful at doing it.

As regards the linked blog post specifically, it fails for me because it sets out a derogatory thesis, moves into a self described rant mode and then finishes having failed to establish its thesis or provide any context by making valid comparisons with other landlords around the world.

Pawwed Rig

I was reluctant to read this blog after seeing the comments so far but bit the bullet this afternoon. To be fair the OP does make some good points like the building standards issue and the short termism but over all I find the passage simplistic, generalist and condescending.

To address 1 or 2 points

Sadly, stories abound of people who’ve lived somewhere for decades and are still thought of as being “fly-ins”, “from away”, or whatever the local pejorative happens to be.

This is people being people. If I (as an Irish person) was to buy a farm in a small Irish town I would never be considered a local there. My children's children might. The same is true if I bought in small town USA, small town Russia or small town Persian Empire. It's nonsense but small town mentalities prevail in every country on Earth. By the same point were I to buy a house in a larger town/city it would depend on me as to whether I joined a community or not.

Regarding the 'bureaucratic and banking obstacles'? There are none really. If you have cash you can buy straight off. If you need a loan then you will be scrutinised which I don't think anyone would find unreasonable. There are few pitfalls here such as right of ways (France) for example.

Then you go on to rant about landlords which is just that, a rant. Full of generalisations and clichés. Then the rest is condescending and most likely looking for a strong reaction.

coming soon 'Why The Irish Like Being Ruled'
seriously?

the_syco

Sadly, stories abound of people who’ve lived somewhere for decades and are still thought of as being “fly-ins”, “from away”, or whatever the local pejorative happens to be.

I like the way that Americans wanted Obamas birth cert to show that he's an American. I see this as ironic in relation to the above quote :P

ballyharpat

I think the OP is starting a blog, if it's thrown into some forums, it will get extra views, 'there's no such thing as bad publicity', I have been a tenent and a caretaker in the USA, I have been a tenant and a landlord in Ireland....both countries have good and bad landlords and good and bad tenants, can't tar everyone with the same brush, good luck getting the numbers up for your blog though........