Lions tactics in the modern era

padser

Watching The Lions and Gatland I'm struck by the thought that what he is doing is prehaps the only way to have a competitive Lions team in the current era.

Essentially what he has done is pick most of Welsh first team (14 initially) for the squad and them adopt the Welsh gameplan suplemented by the best players from other teams. Where there is a toss up between a Welsh player and one from another country he invariably picks the Welshman (Heaslip being the only non Welshman I can see who was the beneficiary of what might be called a marginal or semi marginal call).

Obviously this is quite frustrating in some ways for Fans from other countries, we see people like Sean O Brien, Chris Robshaw etc overlooked for what some might call "inferior" Welsh players.

However, is there really any other way to do it? The Lions need a game plan and style of play. To have any chance of being competitive they really can't create that style from scratch so they have to go with an existing one from one of the four contries. Realistically given the shambles of Ireland and the players from Scotland that means English or Welsh. Once you decide it's Welsh suddenly every single Welsh player has about a 20% premium attached to them. "Inferior" players rightly become more important to the Lioms because they understand the system inside out. It doesn't mean Priestland gets ahead of Sexton, but it does mean Cuthbert is ahead of Zebo.

I guess my question is, is there any other way in the modern era to have a Lions team to be competitive? (Short of making the tour 3 months long!)

Tox56

Highly debatable that some of the players you mention are being blocked by "inferior" players.

Watching The Lions and Gatland I'm struck by the thought that what he is doing is prehaps the only way to have a competitive Lions team in the current era.

Maybe the approach where combinations are retained for familiarity (centres, halfbacks etc.) has some merit, but that isn't the approach Gatland took on this tour. The second rows, halfbacks and centre pairings on Saturday were split, and the 3 backrowers came from 3 different countries.

The matchday 23 that could/should have won the 2nd test v South Africa in 2009 contained 8 Irish, 9 Welsh, 4 English and 1 Scot.. i.e a fairly even spread.

padser

Tox56 wrote: »

Highly debatable that some of the players you mention are being blocked by "inferior" players.

.

That may have come across incorrectly. I'm not definitely saying the other players mentioned are "inferior" - I'm saying in marginal calls the Welshman tends to get the nod. I've re worded as it's not really the focal point of my argument

Swiwi.

padser wrote: »

That may have come across incorrectly. I'm not definitely saying the other players mentioned are "inferior" - I'm saying in marginal calls the Welshman tends to get the nod. I've re worded as it's not really the focal point of my argument

Dont think so. Croft ahead of Lydiate. Youngs ahead of Hibbard. Maybe Bowe ahead of Cuthbert this weekend. Don't really think there is a Welsh bias TBH.

padser

Le vieux renard wrote: »

Dont think so. Croft ahead of Lydiate. Youngs ahead of Hibbard. Maybe Bowe ahead of Cuthbert this weekend. Don't really think there is a Welsh bias TBH.

Lydiate by rights shouldn't even have toured based on current form and fitness (both non existent).

I don't really see how you could argue that Cuthbert is on a par with Bowe. Bowe is a considerably better player (North and Bowe are head and shoulders above the other wingers) and in any case it hasn't actually happened.

Hibbert was lucky to tour in my opinion. There are two hookers in Irelad alone I think are better than him.

Maybe you are right and Welsh players pound for pound better than their opposite numbers from other countries but I don't think it's a particularly controversial statement to say Welsh players have benefited from a lot of marginal calls on the tour.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Gray, Lydiate, Maitland, Jenkins, Phillips shouldn't have toured imo

Buer

I don't think people can really say Lydiate shouldn't have toured on the basis of having no fitness or form when Bowe was picked in a near identical situation (actually less time than Lydiate) after only starting 2 games against the Dragons and Connacht before being picked.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Buer wrote: »

I don't think people can really say Lydiate shouldn't have toured on the basis of having no fitness or form when Bowe was picked in a near identical situation (actually less time than Lydiate) after only starting 2 games against the Dragons and Connacht before being picked.

Good point, although they are very different players and Bowe looked a lot fitter on his return than Lydiate did on his

.ak

Buer wrote: »

I don't think people can really say Lydiate shouldn't have toured on the basis of having no fitness or form when Bowe was picked in a near identical situation (actually less time than Lydiate) after only starting 2 games against the Dragons and Connacht before being picked.

Ah yeah, but one was tearing teams apart on his return and scoring tries. The other looked like he had a summer off and spent it working in a cheese mongers.

.ak

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

Gray, Lydiate, Maitland, Jenkins, Phillips shouldn't have toured imo

Philips and Maitland completely deserved their calls up. Just because they're not playing well now doesn't change the fact they were playing well coming up to the tour. Hindsight's a great thing, so whilst Maitland hasn't dealt well with the pressure cooker he was certainly excellent in the 6N and his club form was extremely good. Philips had a decent 6N, and was instrumental to them clinching the victory from the English in the end.

Grimebox

I don't understand how people constantly insist that there are conspiracies behind team selections. This is tin foil hat stuff imo. Gatland picked the best team he thought was available and a lot of them happen to be Welsh.

conf101

Grimebox wrote: »

I don't understand how people constantly insist that there are conspiracies behind team selections. This is tin foil hat stuff imo. Gatland picked the best team he thought was available and a lot of them happen to be Welsh.

Exactly. And just because people disagree about what the best 15 is doesn't mean that's not how Gatland is picking it.

Gatland's a professional, has a professional reputation to maintain and has his eye on the All Blacks job in the future. To suggest that someone like that would screw around with selections just to keep his favourites happy is nonsense imo.

Buer

It's convenient to blame selection policies or the politics of the coach in question rather than saying the player selected is the best man for the job or considering that he has been selected for a specific purpose.

The fact that Wales have won the 6N two years in a row now suggests that their players are there because they've performed better than any other players.

Just because we don't know/understand the rationale behind a selection doesn't mean there is one. A lot of the fuss before the first test surrounded the selection of Lydiate ahead of SOB. Yes, it was a risk but, as it turned out, I would be much happier with Lydiate coming into the last quarter with the Lions defending a one score lead than SOB.

For Paws

Familiarity with players will always place those players above those who aren't familiar. When professional sports people are asked to carefully consider and select a squad you would think that they, being aware of this natural bias, would come with a more representative squad than is currently the case. With the current Lions squad, Gatland has made a priority of selecting from the national squad with which he is most familiar. This strikes me as being a basic error.
Because Gatland is perceived to be the best coach working within Britain & Ireland, he then selects the largest grouping within the Lions squad from the group he perceives to be the best (Wales). He then selects his group leader from amongst the largest grouping.
It's his call to make, and good luck to them.

But they should be called the Welsh & Others Lions'.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

.ak wrote: »

Philips and Maitland completely deserved their calls up. Just because they're not playing well now doesn't change the fact they were playing well coming up to the tour. Hindsight's a great thing, so whilst Maitland hasn't dealt well with the pressure cooker he was certainly excellent in the 6N and his club form was extremely good. Philips had a decent 6N, and was instrumental to them clinching the victory from the English in the end.

Not saying Maitland wasn't in good form but I think and thought Zebo or Wade would have been a better option

And with regard to Phillips, saying he had a decent six nations is a bit of a stretch. He played well in the final game, but he was pretty bad for every other game, in fact I thought he was on the verge of losing his place.

Would have taken Laidlaw myself instead

chippers

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

Not saying Maitland wasn't in good form but I think and thought Zebo or Wade would have been a better option

And with regard to Phillips, saying he had a decent six nations is a bit of a stretch. He played well in the final game, but he was pretty bad for every other game, in fact I thought he was on the verge of losing his place.

Would have taken Laidlaw myself instead

Watching the highlights of the Scotland Italy game there and Laidlaw looks like he's in good form.

Buer

For Paws wrote: »

With the current Lions squad, Gatland has made a priority of selecting from the national squad with which he is most familiar. This strikes me as being a basic error.

Because Gatland is perceived to be the best coach working within Britain & Ireland, he then selects the largest grouping within the Lions squad from the group he perceives to be the best (Wales).

He hasn't selected from the side that he is most familiar with. He has selected from the side that is the most successful by a distance which happens to also be the one he is most familiar with.

It's not just him that perceives them to be the best, it's the majority of people. They've won the 6N in consecutive years straight after going to the semi finals of the WC. If Wales didn't have the largest representation, it would have been very odd.

A month before flying out, I'd have had Adam Jones, Leigh Halfpenny, AWJ, Mike Phillips and George North as massive favourites to start. Davies and Cuthbert were in the side because of injuries. Warburton is the only one I wouldn't have had in the side. With that said, a hell of a lot of non-Irish people would have had Faletau in ahead of Heaslip.

.ak

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

Not saying Maitland wasn't in good form but I think and thought Zebo or Wade would have been a better option

And with regard to Phillips, saying he had a decent six nations is a bit of a stretch. He played well in the final game, but he was pretty bad for every other game, in fact I thought he was on the verge of losing his place.

Would have taken Laidlaw myself instead

Philips is still one of the best scrumhalfs in the home nations tho. He can be slow, but when it boils down to it he's a top class SH. For me, I would've brought Youngs, Philips and Laidlaw, in that order of preference. Oddly enough the one person I left out of that list is probably the inform SH of the tour: Murray.

But thems the breaks. I don't think there's any conspiracy. Like in '09 when we won the GS the team was riddled with Irish. The Welsh have dominated the home nations 2 years in a row and so they rightfully are the best players available to pick.

My agreement Buer stops there though - Lydiate and SOB isn't a 50/50 call, it can't be, because Lydiate quite simply hasn't done enough on tour to warrant that kind of action. You may be right, he might be a better player to tackle our way to victory whilst holding a one point lead, but with this group of talent I think that's a painfully conservative attitude to have. Unleash SOB at 60 min to win by a two score lead instead.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

.ak wrote: »

Philips is still one of the best scrumhalfs in the home nations tho. He can be slow, but when it boils down to it he's a top class SH. For me, I would've brought Youngs, Philips and Laidlaw, in that order of preference. Oddly enough the one person I left out of that list is probably the inform SH of the tour: Murray.

But thems the breaks. I don't think there's any conspiracy. Like in '09 when we won the GS the team was riddled with Irish. The Welsh have dominated the home nations 2 years in a row and so they rightfully are the best players available to pick.

My agreement Buer stops there though - Lydiate and SOB isn't a 50/50 call, it can't be, because Lydiate quite simply hasn't done enough on tour to warrant that kind of action. You may be right, he might be a better player to tackle our way to victory whilst holding a one point lead, but with this group of talent I think that's a painfully conservative attitude to have. Unleash SOB at 60 min to win by a two score lead instead.

I think we'll have to disagree on Phillips

btw, not saying there's a conspiracy, just that, in my opinion, Gatland made a few big selection mistakes

.ak

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

I think we'll have to disagree on Phillips

btw, not saying there's a conspiracy, just that, in my opinion, Gatland made a few big selection mistakes

Me too. Nothing to do with nationality tho.

Buer

.ak wrote: »

My agreement Buer stops there though - Lydiate and SOB isn't a 50/50 call, it can't be, because Lydiate quite simply hasn't done enough on tour to warrant that kind of action. You may be right, he might be a better player to tackle our way to victory whilst holding a one point lead, but with this group of talent I think that's a painfully conservative attitude to have. Unleash SOB at 60 min to win by a two score lead instead.

I'd have had SOB on the bench too just in the situation that arose, it turned out that Lydiate was probably a more suitable player to introduce, in my opinion. But taking into account every possible scenario, required impact and positional cover, SOB is the right call for me.

For Paws

Buer wrote: »

He hasn't selected from the side that he is most familiar with. He has selected from the side that is the most successful by a distance which happens to also be the one he is most familiar with.

It's not just him that perceives them to be the best, it's the majority of people. They've won the 6N in consecutive years straight after going to the semi finals of the WC. If Wales didn't have the largest representation, it would have been very odd.

A month before flying out, I'd have had Adam Jones, Leigh Halfpenny, AWJ, Mike Phillips and George North as massive favourites to start. Davies and Cuthbert were in the side because of injuries. Warburton is the only one I wouldn't have had in the side. With that said, a hell of a lot of non-Irish people would have had Faletau in ahead of Heaslip.

You are missing my point.
I, like your 'majority of people' percieved Wales as the best team in the 6N.

My point is that if Gatland had been between jobs, and his last coaching post had been Scotland's national coach, there might well be a sight more Scots on the Lions squad. He would have been more familiar with the Scottish squad and that familiarity would have informed his selection.

Go back to the selections boardsies made 6 months ago and count the number of 'probable Lions starters' from Wales, and those selections were being made by 'the majority' who agree that Wales were top team.

Buer

For Paws wrote: »

You are missing my point.
I, like your 'majority of people' percieved Wales as the best team in the 6N.

My point is that if Gatland had been between jobs, and his last coaching post had been Scotland's national coach, there might well be a sight more Scots on the Lions squad. He would have been more familiar with the Scottish squad and that familiarity would have informed his selection.

Go back to the selections boardsies made 6 months ago and count the number of 'probable Lions starters' from Wales, and those selections were being made by 'the majority' who agree that Wales were top team.

I'm not going to go back over those selections for the simple reason I posted in those threads that the team would be completely different as picking several months in advance is no indication of who will be in form come tour time.

For example, I couldn't fathom people not selecting AWJ. A lot of people were still selecting Richie Gray mainly because they'd seen bugger all of him and assuming he was still playing excellently.

6 months ago, the 6N hadn't taken place. That's always been the biggest indicator of who goes on tour.

Maybe, if Gatland had been Scotland coach, he'd have brought some additional Scottish players. Extremely possible. The fact is though, he's the Welsh coach and they're the best side and they have a suitable representation in the test team. I don't think anyone can have any complaints about those who he has selected; the vast majority of his selections have been the correct ones. Has his familiarity influenced them? Maybe. Have they still been the right calls though regardless? Yup.

nipps

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

Gray, Lydiate, Maitland, Jenkins, Phillips shouldn't have toured imo

what about matt stevens?! :eek::pac:

almostover

nipps wrote: »

what about matt stevens?! :eek::pac:

Gatty wanted to make sure that he had someone to tempt Beale back to sampling some mood altering produce if the need arose

irishbucsfan

Haven't read the rest of this thread but OP, what
else do you expect?

Gatland didnt impose Wales' style on the Lions. He imposed HIS style on Wales. And then was chosen to coach the Lions. And then he imposed his style on the Lions and picked the players that suited it best. Really don't think there are any players out there that would suit it better to be honest. He got the calls pretty spot on really imo.

jm08

For Paws wrote: »

You are missing my point.
I, like your 'majority of people' percieved Wales as the best team in the 6N.

There is little or nothing in the teams in the 6Ns - and Wales lost to Ireland this year.

Wales has the 2nd worst record of the 6Ns against SH opposition - success in the 6Ns is not really that relevant when playing against Australia.

Fireball07

Don't think he's overly biased, but he has still made some questionable calls....I don't think Phillips should have toured, and certainly shouldn't have started. He is not a top class scrum-half and hasn't been for a long time, if he ever was (I think top class is a bit much anyway....Genia is top class). I'd have brought Murray, Youngs and Care/Laidlaw. (Maybe both, as Laidlaw could have been OH cover).

Maitland was a toss-up, fair enough.
In hindsight, maybe not bringing Best was a mistake, but still, would have had him over Harley.
Bringing Gray over his fellow countryman, Hamilton, was a big mistake.
Not bringing a 3rd proper OH was a mistake imo.
And the Warburton captaincy was too.

Klunk_NZ

He's up 1-0 on the 2nd best team in the world. I'd say he is doing everything right.....

padser

Klunk_NZ wrote: »

He's up 1-0 on the 2nd best team in the world. I'd say he is doing everything right.....

By that logic If Beale hasn't slipped he would be doing everything wrong....

Teferi

Klunk_NZ wrote: »

He's up 1-0 on the 2nd best team in the world. I'd say he is doing everything right.....

Ah c'mon. We were very lucky boys to win that match. I felt Aussie lost it more than we won it.

Klunk_NZ

Aussie are a good team, even the AB's accept that we might have a loss to them every 5 tests or so. Genia is probably the best 9 in the last 30 years.

Klunk_NZ

In response to the OP I think it is a very sound tactic picking a bulk from one country and implementing their gameplan. If NZ and Aus had to combine for anything you would see Genia take number 9 Digby force Savea out of wing. An aussie number 6 and a golden bench of utilities such as AAC, Beale and co. It just works better for Gelling purposes.

Webbs

Its not even the Welsh game plan in defence, its the English influence in that area

For Paws

Buer wrote: »

I'm not going to go back over those selections for the simple reason I posted in those threads that the team would be completely different as picking several months in advance is no indication of who will be in form come tour time.

For example, I couldn't fathom people not selecting AWJ. A lot of people were still selecting Richie Gray mainly because they'd seen bugger all of him and assuming he was still playing excellently.

6 months ago, the 6N hadn't taken place. That's always been the biggest indicator of who goes on tour.

Maybe, if Gatland had been Scotland coach, he'd have brought some additional Scottish players. Extremely possible. The fact is though, he's the Welsh coach and they're the best side and they have a suitable representation in the test team. I don't think anyone can have any complaints about those who he has selected; the vast majority of his selections have been the correct ones. Has his familiarity influenced them? Maybe. Have they still been the right calls though regardless? Yup.

My point exactly.

As to whether they have been the right calls regardless, we'll never know.
All we will ever know is whether or not this squad wins the Test series.
This is itself does not rule out the possibility that a substantially different squad might also have won or lost the series.
Even at this point, with the first Test won, there are posts in this thread stating the names of those players who 'should not have travelled'.

Is this tour nothing more than Gatland's application for the NZ job pasted on top of a fundraiser for the Aussie Super 15 sides ?

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Klunk_NZ wrote: »

He's up 1-0 on the 2nd best team in the world. I'd say he is doing everything right.....

Boks are far and away better than the Australians imo

Buer

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

Boks are far and away better than the Australians imo

I think they're fairly evenly matched. If Australia could figure out what to do with their 10/12 and identify an 80%+ goal kicker, I think they'd be the better side. Australia have had the better of the last two 3N/RC tournaments.

South Africa have more power and probably better depth but they struggle to translate that into results on the field. They're not the side they were 3-4 years ago though at all and have never really replaced the likes of Botha, Matfield, Smith and Smit up front.

matthew8

Buer wrote: »

I think they're fairly evenly matched. If Australia could figure out what to do with their 10/12 and identify an 80%+ goal kicker, I think they'd be the better side. Australia have had the better of the last two 3N/RC tournaments.

South Africa have more power and probably better depth but they struggle to translate that into results on the field. They're not the side they were 3-4 years ago though at all and have never really replaced the likes of Botha, Matfield, Smith and Smit up front.

To be honest I think if South Africa are on their game at all they should comfortably deal with Australia at home and have a decent chance away. I also disagree that SA haven't replaced Smit, they may well have the best 2 hookers in the world in Straus and Du Plessis. Lots of depth and options in the second row too. Smith is a big loss and the 7 shirt is tough to fill. The real worry is the prop forwards to be honest. Jannie Du Plessis doesn't look up to it anymore and Mtawarira isn't in his best form either, and the team got bullied by Italy in the scrum. They should still have the quality to deal with Australia however with Habana back in the form of his life.

Gambas

padser wrote: »

Lydiate by rights shouldn't even have toured based on current form and fitness (both non existent).

I don't really see how you could argue that Cuthbert is on a par with Bowe. Bowe is a considerably better player (North and Bowe are head and shoulders above the other wingers) and in any case it hasn't actually happened.

Can't see how you can dismiss Lydiate on the basis of no form and fitness, and yet big up Bowe. Both have come to the tour with the same sort of season behind them.

Buer

Sorry, you're right, Smit, as a player, has been replaced comfortably. But what he brought as a presence to the side has not been.

On paper, SA have always looked like the more physically dominating side and certainly have stronger depth but, when it has come to getting the job done in the last couple of years, they haven't managed to turn their power into results.

Klunk_NZ

Nobody seems to know their best position in Australia, Deans needs to go.