A Park and Ride system for Dublin?

monument

Like this but on a greater scale:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLznXL7VQXU

coylemj

I only watched half that movie but it looks identical to the P&R system they have across the water in Chester where there are four car parks outside the city. Parking is free and you pay £2 for the return bus trip.

http://www.cheshirewestandchester.gov.uk/residents/transport_and_roads/park_and_ride.aspx

jack presley

The amount of cars that park in the Phoenix Park and then get the Luas into town shows how a good park and ride system would work in the city.

Cookie_Monster

the lack of cars parked in Carrickmines shows how a good park and ride system is ruined by overcharging

markpb

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

the lack of cars parked in Carrickmines shows how a good park and ride system is ruined by overcharging

Luas from Carrickmines isn't very fast, most people wold be better off driving to Sandyford or Balally and using the P&R there.

Macy0161

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

the lack of cars parked in Carrickmines shows how a good park and ride system is ruined by overcharging

It's also the wrong place for it - those coming from North Wicklow still get caught with the worst of M50/M11 merge traffic (which is worse again if you go as far as Sandyford - no benefit getting snarled up in that traffic). I think it'd do better if it was in Cherrywood (or further out (eg Fassaroe) if the extension ever happened). Same argument could probably be made for the Red Cow Park and Ride - moving it further out could make it more attractive.

Also regarding North Wicklow, there are already a few bus routes (Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann) that could be utilised if there was safe parking in the likes of Kilmac, Kilpedder, Newtownmountkennedy.

Aidan1

There has been a full time dedicated park and ride in operation in this country for nearly a decade, €5 combined for parking and bus fare into town with a dedicated fleet (ok a small fleet) of double decker buses owned by the local authority. Works well - it paid for itself for a long time (don't know about more recently because demand has to have fallen off). It's not in Dublin of course;



http://www.corkcity.ie/services/roadstransportation/trafficdivision/blackashparkandride/

bk

Aidan1 wrote: »

with a dedicated fleet (ok a small fleet) of double decker buses owned by the local authority.

Cork City Council don't own the buses, they are operated by Bus Eireann under contract with CCC.

But yes a great example of a very successful park and ride.

Dravokivich

How much are people going to spend parking and then using a commuter service?

Around Dublin doing so would probably cost the same as driving into town and parking.

But then again, do the commuting services meet their needs as well? In most areas the only way to get around Dublin with public transport is by going through town.

Aidan1

Cork City Council don't own the buses, they are operated by Bus Eireann under contract with CCC.

Slightly more complex than that - they were specced and bought by the City Council (and the livery chosen by them), but Bus Eireann threw a blue fit when they thought that their monopoly on running bus services would be broken (this after the CC trying to persuade them to run this service, or change existing services for years). So they got to run this service, including housing the buses and providing drivers. If it were done now, you can take it as a given that it would opened up to tender for commercial operators to run it (including BE, of course).

Note the reference to the City Council holding an operator licence and using the 1933 Act as a basis to run the service - all of this to overcome the deliberate obstructionism of BE.

monument

Dravokivich wrote: »

How much are people going to spend parking and then using a commuter service?

Around Dublin doing so would probably cost the same as driving into town and parking.

But then again, do the commuting services meet their needs as well? In most areas the only way to get around Dublin with public transport is by going through town.

Re driving into town:

Easy. Follow the Dutch example and implement P&R as part of a wider plan for less cars entering the city. More space and priority to walking, cycling and public transport -- and also more space to seating and hanging around spaces.

Aidan1

Monument - that's an approach that works well in areas with well worked spatial planning - and particularly where city centres are older and less suited to large amounts of vehicular traffic but where the city isn't big enough to justify a comprehensive public transport system. It was part of the thinking behind the one in Cork, I'm sure, but I'm not so sure that a bus based one is quite so necessary in Dublin. In the first instance, the city has a patchy but functional public transport system, in the second, I'm not sure that anybody wants to be promoting further long distance commuting - it's bad enough already.

monument

Aidan1 wrote: »

Monument - that's an approach that works well in areas with well worked spatial planning - and particularly where city centres are older and less suited to large amounts of vehicular traffic but where the city isn't big enough to justify a comprehensive public transport system. It was part of the thinking behind the one in Cork, I'm sure, but I'm not so sure that a bus based one is quite so necessary in Dublin. In the first instance, the city has a patchy but functional public transport system, in the second, I'm not sure that anybody wants to be promoting further long distance commuting - it's bad enough already.

I've heard excuses along these lines before but it's just not dealing with the reality of the current mid-to long diatance commuters and others who need to access the city.

If this traffic is not managed it's a lot harder to make the city -- including the city centre but also areas inside the M50 -- more attractive to and more able to handle larger amounts of residents, tourists and other visitors.

Provisions for walking, cycling and public transport for shorter distances would be improved -- P&R for those driving into the city would allow reallocation of space.

In Dublin, any such P&R system would be not just based on buses alone but also BRT, upgraded Luas, and Dart. Bikes as well -- like the Dutch system.

The park and walk element would also be key to keeping access.

Cool Mo D

As a basic measure, free parking stickers should be given out with Irish Rail monthly and yearly commuter tickets. Not quite park and ride, but would at least provide some incentive to leave the car.

Aidan1

I've heard excuses along these lines before but it's just not dealing with the reality of the current mid-to long diatance commuters and others who need to access the city.

I'm all for traffic management, and for pushing cycling and pedestrian use of the city (a congestion charge is more than likely the best way to do this though). But encouraging to being their cars further into town isn't helpful - it would be far more productive to encourage people to park and ride further out - at nodes on the rail based public transport system if at all possible.

Dublin is quite different in terms of it's geography by comparison with many other European countries after all, being far less dense and with congestion occuring much further out. This means the time/distance benefits associated with bus based P&R don't work the same way. It's also developing more in a multi-polar manner than most cities, which means that the journy profile is quite diverse (less identifiable point to point type traffic). For Limerick and particularly Galway, on the other hand, it has huge potential (and is much more cost effective than light rail, by comparison).

monument

Aidan1 wrote: »

But encouraging to being their cars further into town isn't helpful - it would be far more productive to encourage people to park and ride further out - at nodes on the rail based public transport system if at all possible.

The kind of P&R I'm suggestion with more spaces and priority taken away from cars inside the city and city centre does more than just encouraging cars away from the city -- it would force cars out but at the same time give people who live further out an alternative.

By putting P&R along the M50 and near the end of larger roads (UCD, Islandbridge etc), you're limited the affects of cars without being too unreasonable.

Re rail based public transport -- I can't see why it would not work with a mix of improved bus services / BRT, the expanding Luas network, and Dart.

Aidan1 wrote: »

Dublin is quite different in terms of it's geography by comparison with many other European countries after all, being far less dense and with congestion occuring much further out.

Amsterdam
Urban population: 1,557,905
City density: 3,506/km2 (9,080/sq mi)

Dublin
Urban population: 1,187,176
City density: 4,588/km2 (11,880/sq mi)

Copenhagen
Urban population: 1,230,728
City density: 7,300/km2 (19,000/sq mi)

I can't find the urban density quickly online for all three, so can't compare that, and the city boundaries are useless to compare population size. Would welcome any extra data.

Aidan1 wrote: »

This means the time/distance benefits associated with bus based P&R don't work the same way.

It works on the bases of reduced car capacity within the city and more so the city centre. The principal works at 4km and at 8km etc.

Aidan1 wrote: »

It's also developing more in a multi-polar manner than most cities, which means that the journy profile is quite diverse (less identifiable point to point type traffic).

The multi-polar stuff is mainly at or beyond the M50, so it would not really come into this.

Cool Mo D wrote: »

As a basic measure, free parking stickers should be given out with Irish Rail monthly and yearly commuter tickets. Not quite park and ride, but would at least provide some incentive to leave the car.

It has to be carefully planned -- making all station car parks free would cause problems and there's some stations where it's undesirable to promote car parking (ie some stations close to town or village centres etc).