Ireland is now a nation of "pagans"

tommy2bad

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/bishops-ireland-is-now-a-nation-of-pagans-234925.html

So we are all pagans now! The bishops think we sold out for bling and not because of any disillusionment with their inability to deal with the recent controversies. Please lets not go back over that again, I drifted from the RCC for a number of reasons and that was one but not the only one. However an obsession with materialism wasn't one of them.
I admit I'm comfortable with the term pagan but prefer heathen. ymmv.

So how pagan are you?

endacl

Not pagan at all. Paganism has too much madey uppy supernatural foolishness.

homer911

The picture in the Irish Times summed it up
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/irish-have-become-pagan-some-catholic-bishops-believe-1.1440835

Ireland is probably less 'pagan' than the UK. As tommy2bad said, heathen might have been a better choice of words.

I think it comes down to the way some of the traditional churches have engaged with the public, particularly with their sermons/homilys. If they preach a lightweight watered-down faith, they will only get lightweight watered-down Christians. This is common in both the Catholic and traditional Protestant churches, but not in the independent or more modern churches (which seem to be showing the most growth)

tommy2bad

Trust the Irish Times to use a picture of English druids to illustrate a story on Irish religious practice.
Aren't their any Irish druids or pagans or witches they could have googled a pic of?

Are the bishops right though? have we become so indifferent to faith that we are to all intents and purposes pagans. And if we have what can be done about it? I'm not holding any hope that the hierarchy can do anything, they seem to have accepted that only bad times can be used to promote faith and money will always win against faith. A bit depressing a thought, no?

Manach

When I think Pagan, my image of that of a pre-Christian world of the Classics from the writings of Robert Kaplan. The state/local official/chieftan embody what is the now acceptable, where law is morality. That morality is then deemed to be whatever the special interest group that has the most power deems it to be, as per Thucydides.
That the stable bedrock morality that is the foundation of religion is instead a mishmash of archaic rituals that were trotted out by the ruling classes depending on the situation, with the seeming mutual incompatibilities of people both so concentrated within their own drive for individuality and the same time unwilling to rock the new social norms for fear of being label distributive and old-fashioned.

elfy4eva

Just a sign as to how delusional the Irish clergy have gotten.

I wonder does it even cross their minds that their loss in practising
members could be down to how they have avoided answering, consistantly
and coherently, for the questions the nation have posed about the church
abuse scandels.

Ask a clergyman about church abuse and he'll sidestep the question as quick
as a politician will about welfare cuts.

But "NO" say the church. It's definately the paganism thats causing this.
making its biggest comeback for a thousand years.

Seriously RCC cop on to yerselves.

charlemont

I'm a pagan and proud of it..

munchkin_utd

I do find it amusing when the leaders of the catholic church accuse folks of being pagans rather than christian when a large part of the catholic church's practices are themselves devoted to praying to statutes, holy medals, saints and most importantly Mary. Praying for release from purgatory or giving cash to buy release of course no longer happens as the Pope said that the whole concept was made up in the first place. But you get the pattern!

Sure poor Jesus Christ himself barely gets a mention amongst the fog of devotion to all class of non christ(-ian) related things and only for the fuss made about Easter and Christmas you'd nearly forget that its a religion which is supposed to be devoted to a certain man and his teachings.

tommy2bad

munchkin_utd
Praying for release from purgatory or giving cash to buy release of course no longer happens as the Pope said that the whole concept was made up in the first place.

Your confusing purgatory with limbo! purg is still part of the teaching.

Manach;
When I think Pagan, my image of that of a pre-Christian world of the Classics from the writings of Robert Kaplan. The state/local official/chieftan embody what is the now acceptable, where law is morality. That morality is then deemed to be whatever the special interest group that has the most power deems it to be, as per Thucydides.
That the stable bedrock morality that is the foundation of religion is instead a mishmash of archaic rituals that were trotted out by the ruling classes depending on the situation, with the seeming mutual incompatibilities of people both so concentrated within their own drive for individuality and the same time unwilling to rock the new social norms for fear of being label distributive and old-fashioned.

Say wha?
I've read that twice and still have trouble understanding it. I'm ok up to where you mention stable bedrock morality.
Are you saying that pagan is to be understood as a social system which uses pragmatism as a moral base or something else?
Maybe it's the eastern europeans that did it! http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2011/sep/16/estonia-least-religious-country-world
Oh and the Greeks seem to be going pagan as well, Case for materialism leading to paganism is getting weaker!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22972610

lazygal

Weren't Irish people pagans before Christianity? So really we're just reverting to a previous set of superstitions.

Manach

Sorry for the dense language, just trying to fit concepts that I've spent a good while reading/studying about and realizing how little I know on them, whilst hoping a manager does not pop by and ask how the project is going .

Fanny Cradock

Probably better suited to the Paganism forum, no?

Tabnabs

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Probably better suited to the Paganism forum, no?

Hardly, this is a statement by leading Irish christian holy men who are referring to their own audience (who are not able to unsubscribe from the catholic mailing list either...). This cleanly belongs in this forum.

tommy2bad

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Probably better suited to the Paganism forum, no?

Ah I don't think pagans would consider us pagan, I doubt the bishops meant actual real polytheists. I think they were referring to how we don't go to mass and stuff but still like weddings and horoscopes and child of Prague statues in hedges to get a fine day.

Fanny Cradock

"So how pagan are you?"

That line make me think otherwise, but I guess it's up to the mods. Anywho, this thread seems to be going south and fast so I'll bow out now.

tommy2bad

Fair question!
TBH I'm as pagan as they come, I celebrate all the pagan festivals, winter solstices( ok I hold on till xmass) spring equinox(again its more convenient to wait till Easter) Midsummer, (St Johns eve is a good time for a bbq) winter equinox (love Halloween)
I am a country boy so tend to measure the year in seasons and base most of my festivals at the quarters. St Bridgit's day, May eve and 15th Aug, all times of holiday for me.


I find it hard to take this kind of unthinking nonsense from the hierarchy seriously. It reminds me of the old 'we all partied' bull from FF.
If theirs a crises in the church in Ireland (or Eire ) then it's the job of the church to address that not just blame materialism. Presuming that we got distracted by shiny things rather than that we got disgusted with revelation after revelation is just dishonest.
Yes I know we have this from a group with a vested interest in making the bishops look bad but the fact that it's now a front page story and not on a slow news day is something worth discussing.
As flippant as I have been, this is a serious issue, if the report is true it shows a deep disconnect with the people, never mind reality, on behalf of the bishops.

Benny_Cake

I think it's probably reasonable to leave it here, although I don't think the bishops or whoever wrote the report quite understand the meaning of the word "pagan".

It strikes me that the Bishops have essentially no idea what to do next. I actually think that materialism is an issue for us all, but I don't think it even makes the list in terms of the problems that the Catholic church faces in this country. It's striking that the only answer they can come up with is evangelisation, but they seem to have no idea how to advance that. The full text is here if anyone is interested.

(puts mod hat on)

It would be nice if this didn't turn into an exercise in kneejerk Catholic bashing. If it does, it will be closed.

homer911

Personally I think its great to see any church talking about a need for evangelisation. Hopefully we will never see American style televangelists, but a recognition of the need to share the word of God with the average Irish person, and not just with perceived heathens in developing countries is to be very welcome. I recall a programme I saw on BBC a while back about an African minister from a church established by a Scottish missionary going back to his home church and finding it in dire need of evangelism (I think it was about 150 years later..)

tommy2bad

Evangelisation ? in a country with religious education in all the schools and a nominally 80% catholic population, who are they going to evangelize?
It's all a bit Fr Ted, "sure another mass couldn't hurt'.
We have an existing church that needs leadership and invigoration. People are not antagonistic to faith, their sick of the aloof and distant hierarchy. Their doesn't seem to be any desire to do more than ride out the storm. World wide the RCC seems to have abandoned the western world and decided that it's best 'market' is now in the developing world.
Is it any wonder that we are all pagan? We have been abandoned.

The age, lack of energy, tiredness of priests was very obvious. Expecting these men to bring about any real change was clearly not living in the real world. Keeping the show on the road for another few years is the most that can be expected from most of them.

Sadly that sums it up.

lmaopml

While the Catholic Bishops and the vast majority of Priests are releasing statements on the current legislation to go through the Dail on Abortion - and organising events during the Year of Faith together will the laity to evangelise and revitalise our Parishes.....while building blocks are being put down, initiatives started...

The ACP's leadership are publishing statements that are nothing more than their own interpretation of their own private meetings that they requested with Priests and were obliged in many cases and refused point blank in others.......and all they can do is pubish a report speaking for the Bishops and basically how in their opinion this is the 'only' problem the Bishops seem to see with the Church in Ireland?!?!..because that's helpful and evangelising isn't?

To be honest, as a fully practicing lay Catholic it doesn't actually surprise me anymore what the ACP's leadership says in the name of our Priests.
I only wish the few apparently nameless priests that they claim to speak for would distance themselves, because the group is not helping with it's current leadership imo - who seem to have a really bad case of sour grapes.

tommy2bad

lmaopml wrote: »

While the Catholic Bishops and the vast majority of Priests are releasing statements on the current legislation to go through the Dail on Abortion - and organising events during the Year of Faith together will the laity to evangelise and revitalise our Parishes.....while building blocks are being put down, initiatives started...

The ACP's leadership are publishing statements that are nothing more than their own interpretation of their own private meetings that they requested with Priests and were obliged in many cases and refused point blank in others.......and all they can do is pubish a report speaking for the Bishops and basically how in their opinion this is the 'only' problem the Bishops seem to see with the Church in Ireland?!?!..because that's helpful and evangelising isn't?

To be honest, as a fully practicing lay Catholic it doesn't actually surprise me anymore what the ACP's leadership says in the name of our Priests.
I only wish the few apparently nameless priests that they claim to speak for would distance themselves, because the group is not helping with it's current leadership imo - who seem to have a really bad case of sour grapes.

Indeed, I'm well aware of the source of this report. I've lashed it with salt and still get a feeling that it hits the nail on the head.

lmaopml

tommy2bad wrote: »

Indeed, I'm well aware of the source of this report. I've lashed it with salt and still get a feeling that it hits the nail on the head.

Sure Tommy, I know you would be aware that the ACP have come up a few times on threads here, and salt is a requirement....;)...you're getting the forum active..lol...divils advocate?

Anyways, there' s always going to the source too to get the real picture - there is a really good site called www.catholicbishops.ie with very many links to keep people up to date on various initiatives and news etc. Also people can contact their bishops too....and indeed get involved with others. I'm looking into starting a bible group or lectio divina in my own parish, which may or may not take off so long as people don't mind looking at some girl with a massive redner


Also, I just found a really cool little App for my phone called 'Missio' that was endorsed and indeed Pope Francis actually pressed the button to release it himself - It gives wonderful little talks, news and homilies etc. by our new Pope - who I might add is a really lovely guy and well worth listening to with no salt required...very uplifting, just what we need methinks.

tommy2bad

Do you think Francis is what might make a difference? Is it too late?
Opening up a bit here, (not something an agent provocateur like me dose often ) I was a regular mass going RCC, did readings, took part in all the extra stuff, confirmation classes, you know the kind of thing. I even defended the church when the abuse scandals broke, "not a church for saints, a church for sinners" I'd say but after the long drawn out response that in realty wasn't worth the wait, I decided enough was enough.
It wasn't the only reason, my view on God and some other things made me an outsider in my cradle church. I think a lot of people who used to be strong cultural catholics left at the same time because the social compulsion to participate was gone. More left as they, like me found the churches position on things didn't match with what their experience of the world taught them.
Perhaps it all came too late, if the scandals had been exposed 30 years ago when we had a young and vibrant clergy things might have been different, but it didn't and I cant help but think it didn't happen because that same clergy were not as vibrant as we thought.
I duno, are we now a pagan country, secular country, or atheist country? Is their an opportunity to reinvigorate the church? Maybe it's for the best and the institutional church is done with, can the church in the sense of the people of God stand on their own feet?

lmaopml

tommy2bad wrote: »

Do you think Francis is what might make a difference? Is it too late?

The Church is still vibrant Tommy in many parts of the world, including in Ireland among lots of practicing Catholics - we're still here - I don't think it's the Pope who will save the world, but the people at the end of the day who in vast numbers need Jesus Christ and know it.

Opening up a bit here, (not something an agent provocateur like me dose often ) I was a regular mass going RCC, did readings, took part in all the extra stuff, confirmation classes, you know the kind of thing. I even defended the church when the abuse scandals broke, "not a church for saints, a church for sinners" I'd say but after the long drawn out response that in realty wasn't worth the wait, I decided enough was enough.
It wasn't the only reason, my view on God and some other things made me an outsider in my cradle church. I think a lot of people who used to be strong cultural catholics left at the same time because the social compulsion to participate was gone.

You wouldn't be the only one Tommy. I left for years, then I became what one might call a 'revert' and actually a 'convert' in many ways too as I had dabbled in Buddhist Spirituality and basically became agnostic really in my approach. I ended up going full circle one might say. I realise there are people in the Church who will cause the faithful scandal, but then they've always been there, we're not perfect people - these days I tend to concentrate more on educating myself a little more on the teachings at source rather than learning second hand - and also the actual tremendous amount of really good Christians that have always been there. The Church is kind of like the heart of a Christian, sometimes we can look bland and grey on the outside, but once one gets inside the doors the light shining through the windows presents the beauty inside. 'Beauty' and the 'Catholic Church' in one sentence...lol....nevertheless it's true. It's her people with Christ at the head and in the heart that makes her so, to me anyways...

Still, I think you are best to be honest about where you are - there is nothing like honesty, in fact I think it's a far better quality than vague apathy.

More left as they, like me found the churches position on things didn't match with what their experience of the world taught them.

The Church's position is never going to be the position of a culture - she is counter cultural, and this has been true from the beginning. It's Jesus we're talking about - not of this world etc.....not Obama..

Perhaps it all came too late, if the scandals had been exposed 30 years ago when we had a young and vibrant clergy things might have been different, but it didn't and I cant help but think it didn't happen because that same clergy were not as vibrant as we thought.
I duno, are we now a pagan country, secular country, or atheist country? Is their an opportunity to reinvigorate the church? Maybe it's for the best and the institutional church is done with, can the church in the sense of the people of God stand on their own feet?

I tend to take a providential view on all the ages of the Church I guess - this is not the first problem ever, and it won't be the last, she tends not to take a puritanical approach, but embraces sinners....The Church is in God's hands, and in my little time here on this patch of earth, the only response I am truly responsible for as far as my faith is concerned is up to God above and my own heart to be open and receptive to where he needs me and how I can help. That's the way I look at it Tommy if that helps somewhat.

I think it's cool that you are honest however - it's the best policy I think.

Manach

At the risk/certainty of breaking Godwin, and not without a certain irony on my own part, the lionization of historical paganism to be an antidote to the perceived over-reaching flaws of segments of modern society is not a new phenomenon - an example in a recent book "A Most Dangerous Book" by Christopher B. Krebs, on Tacitus' Germania.

homer911

tommy2bad wrote: »

Evangelisation ? in a country with religious education in all the schools and a nominally 80% catholic population, who are they going to evangelize?
It's all a bit Fr Ted, "sure another mass couldn't hurt'.

There's a world of difference between knowing about God and knowing God. The difference is evangelisation. Schools can educate, but its not their role (or ability) to evangelise.

tommy2bad wrote: »

We have an existing church that needs leadership and invigoration. People are not antagonistic to faith, their sick of the aloof and distant hierarchy. Their doesn't seem to be any desire to do more than ride out the storm. World wide the RCC seems to have abandoned the western world and decided that it's best 'market' is now in the developing world.
Is it any wonder that we are all pagan? We have been abandoned.

Sadly that sums it up.

In fairness, I dont think this is an issue unique to the Catholic church. In England, some 20-30 Anglican churches are closing each year. Not exclusively to do with lack of evangelisation, but certainly related.

Zombrex

Well the real question is are you a Catholic pagan or a Protestant pagan

Geomy

tommy2bad wrote: »

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/bishops-ireland-is-now-a-nation-of-pagans-234925.html

So we are all pagans now! The bishops think we sold out for bling and not because of any disillusionment with their inability to deal with the recent controversies. Please lets not go back over that again, I drifted from the RCC for a number of reasons and that was one but not the only one. However an obsession with materialism wasn't one of them.
I admit I'm comfortable with the term pagan but prefer heathen. ymmv.

So how pagan are you?

Instinctively Pagan but willing to grow along spiritual lines. ...

Doctor DooM

Geomy wrote: »

Instinctively Pagan but willing to grow along spiritual lines. ...

That's an interesting statement- you think pagans aren't spiritual?

Geomy

Doctor DooM wrote: »

That's an interesting statement- you think pagans aren't spiritual?

Pagans are spiritual, I should rephrase it to, im willing to be open to alternative spiritual idea's...

Bigdeadlydave

They never even used the word "pagan" what was said has been misconstrued

Onesimus

Its all a case for semantics. Definitions change through history. What pagan meant in saint Paul's time was everything that encompassed secularism, heathenism today. All of that was used with the one word pagan in Paul's day. It mainly meant irreligious, secularism, atheism, heatenism, or anything other than Christ. Bishops are just using the ancient term to encompass all of it in one. They could perhaps have used a better term because nobody relates to that word anymore they way they do today.

endacl

So what they were saying is Ireland is now 'non christian'? nation? I'd have to say we're certainly moving in that direction.