Leap Card when Irish Rail gate line is open

jordan7601

USING LEAP CARD FOR DART STATIONS:

I had a wound dressing done from the hospital when i decided to take the Dart Station in Sydney Parade going to Connolly Station. I've notice that all the barriers are up and not working. There is no one to ask if I have to swipe my card because I'm thinking that it won't work and might take all my credits or will charge me more.so i decided to hop in without swiping and intend to explain it at conolly station anyway. Never realized inspectors will be there at present on journey. I told them my reasons but they keep insisting i should have swipe. They said i am avoiding to pay properly and it is against blah blah blah. i can't believe how he can say that even though it's obvious i am not well. He penalized me 100.00 euro . great! im sick and injured, off at work. minimum pay.100.00 euro fine.
I ask them if these barriers are faulty, they should be giving instructions to passengers what to do to if you're a leap cardholders, students card holders, etc. i find it fishy that inspectors are very active when this fault happens all the time . To get money from the passengers? tsk so low.

devnull

The card readers still work even if the barriers are open

They normally say
"Tag On / Off Only"

And you don't need to swipe the card, you hold it there. They are not swipe cards.

Amirani

jordan7601 wrote: »

USING LEAP CARD FOR DART STATIONS:

I had a wound dressing done from the hospital when i decided to take the Dart Station in Sydney Parade going to Connolly Station. I've notice that all the barriers are up and not working. There is no one to ask if I have to swipe my card because I'm thinking that it won't work and might take all my credits or will charge me more.so i decided to hop in without swiping and intend to explain it at conolly station anyway. Never realized inspectors will be there at present on journey. I told them my reasons but they keep insisting i should have swipe. They said i am avoiding to pay properly and it is against blah blah blah. i can't believe how he can say that even though it's obvious i am not well. He penalized me 100.00 euro . great! im sick and injured, off at work. minimum pay.100.00 euro fine.
I ask them if these barriers are faulty, they should be giving instructions to passengers what to do to if you're a leap cardholders, students card holders, etc. i find it fishy that inspectors are very active when this fault happens all the time . To get money from the passengers? tsk so low.

Can you understand why they may have been sceptical of your motives? If you feel hard done by, you can appeal the fine. From a neutral point of view, I'd say your prospect of success would be fairly low though in such a case.

jordan7601

NiallSparky wrote: »

Can you understand why they may have been sceptical of your motives? If you feel hard done by, you can appeal the fine. From a neutral point of view, I'd say your prospect of success would be fairly low though in such a case.

They are in a group of inspectors in which all of us were checked. I am just telling the truth. i can't imagine even in my wildest dream not to pay a train fare. As i said the gates(platform) are all open. normally leap card is used to open this. It is BROKEN/ NOT WORKING PROPERLY.

According to leapcard.ie:
How do I use my Leap Card?

Customers using their Leap Card to travel on DART and Commuter Rail services must Touch-On at the gate onto the platform or at the pole provided before boarding and Touch-Off when leaving the station. Failure to do so will result in you being charged the MAXIMUM FARE.

Touch-On / Touch-Off at a Gate
Hold the Leap Card against the validator on the gate.
If you have credit on the Leap Card, the gate will open and allow you to enter and start your journey.
Your current Travel Credit balance will appear on the display on the gate

I have no intention of not paying. what for? Some people do not pay because they don't have money to pay for the fare. I am holding a leap card which has credit and have money to pay for the fare. The investigator should at least have ask me to pay for a ticket at that point if he knew there is a fault in the platform.

bk

Because some people will carry around a loaded leap card, but then never pay and if an inspector challenges them, they just say look, I have a leap card, I was going to pay, but the machine wasn't working. I'm not saying you would do this, but there are certainly a lot of dishonest people out there.

The gates being open or not has nothing to do with leap card. The gates are usually left open at stations off peak when there is no staff manning the station, but you still need to tag-on/tag-off either at the gate or the pole just as the FAQ above says.

It may have been an honest mistake on your part, but there is no way for an inspector to determine that, so you got a fine. You can appeal it if you like, but it is unlikely to be successful.

It is an expensive lesson for you to learn, but in future always make sure you have a valid ticket before you travel.

TheBandicoot

jordan7601 wrote: »

As i said the gates(platform) are all open. normally leap card is used to open this. It is BROKEN/ NOT WORKING PROPERLY.

That's not broken, nor not working properly. That's how the gates are when there is no staff available, so people with free travel passes etc can get through. It doesn't matter if the gates are open or not, you still need to touch on.

coylemj

jordan7601 wrote: »

They are in a group of inspectors in which all of us were checked. I am just telling the truth. i can't imagine even in my wildest dream not to pay a train fare. As i said the gates(platform) are all open. normally leap card is used to open this. It is BROKEN/ NOT WORKING PROPERLY.

They are not necessarily broken, sometimes they throw them open to relieve pressure when there are large numbers of people on the move or if the station is unmanned, to facilitate people with free travel as mentioned above.

Same happens on the tube in London at busy stations after sports events but everyone with an Oyster card will tag on and off even if the barriers are open, you need to do the same in Dublin with a Leap card.

Victor

Thread split.

Let's keep this thread on-topic and constructive.

Moderator

Carawaystick

I've often seen gates open with the text in the display saying 'No ticket required'
What then?

Victor

Carawaystick wrote: »

I've often seen gates open with the text in the display saying 'No ticket required'
What then?

That text shouldn't display any more. If it does, report it.

Carawaystick

Victor wrote: »

That text shouldn't display any more. If it does, report it.

I don't use the train any more, it's dearer and slower than the bus, with a higher chance of no seats free

LXFlyer

coylemj wrote: »

They are not necessarily broken, sometimes they throw them open to relieve pressure when there are large numbers of people on the move or if the station is unmanned, to facilitate people with free travel as mentioned above.

Same happens on the tube in London at busy stations after sports events but everyone with an Oyster card will tag on and off even if the barriers are open, you need to do the same in Dublin with a Leap card.

At most National Rail stations in London after a certain time each evening the gates are left open and if you are using oyster pay-as-you-go oyster you must still tag on/off as required.

jordan7601

bk wrote: »

Because some people will carry around a loaded leap card, but then never pay and if an inspector challenges them, they just say look, I have a leap card, I was going to pay, but the machine wasn't working. I'm not saying you would do this, but there are certainly a lot of dishonest people out there.

The gates being open or not has nothing to do with leap card. The gates are usually left open at stations off peak when there is no staff manning the station, but you still need to tag-on/tag-off either at the gate or the pole just as the FAQ above says.

It may have been an honest mistake on your part, but there is no way for an inspector to determine that, so you got a fine. You can appeal it if you like, but it is unlikely to be successful.

It is an expensive lesson for you to learn, but in future always make sure you have a valid ticket before you travel.

Fare evasion means you decided not pay or avoid payment for fare. Leap card automatically deducts you the maximum if an incident you dint top on or top off in the start or end of journey. I explained to inspectors im getting off in connolly and we know for a fact there is no way you barriers are open over there. It is more ideal that the inspector charged me with another ticket. I will pay for this fine. 100 euro is nothing for me . I own two shops in city and 2 shops outside dublin area. Just a lesson to remind everyone else out there who dont know anything too about leap cards. How it should be used when platforms are open and NO ONE is present to be ask.

Dravokivich

They really need to make it more obvious as well. Sometimes those little screens on the validators themselves can be hard to read.

bk

jordan7601 wrote: »

Fare evasion means you decided not pay or avoid payment for fare. Leap card automatically deducts you the maximum if an incident you dint top on or top off in the start or end of journey. I explained to inspectors im getting off in connolly and we know for a fact there is no way you barriers are open over there.

But the inspector doesn't know you will be getting off at Connolly, you could just as easily be getting off at another non city center station (e.g. Clontarf Road) that will also have the gates open (almost all non city center stations have the gates open at off peak times).

They couldn't just charge you a standard ticket price, because that isn't the way ticket inspection and enforcement works. There aren't ticket inspectors on most journeys, so if a ticket inspector just charged you a standard fare, then every dishonest person would just chance their arm and travel for free on most journeys and then the odd time they get caught by a ticket inspector, ask for the standard ticket price.

The idea is that a person might get away with 10 free journeys (saving them as much as €40), but will get caught the 11'th time and that the €100 fine will make back the money lost and also help pay the inspectors wages.

The high fine is to stop people from even thinking about not paying their fare.

So you didn't have a ticket, so you got fined. That just the way it is.

Infini

Theres 4 machines in Sydney to tag on and a post near the old night gate to tag on. If ya didnt take care to tag on then its your own fault Ive seem people rushing too quickly or not holding the card over the scanner for it to tag on properly. Its your own responsibilty to be sure you tagged on properly or pay for a regular ticket out of the TVM.

Hilly Bill

Dravokivich wrote: »

They really need to make it more obvious as well. Sometimes those little screens on the validators themselves can be hard to read.

How much more obvious do you want it? Its simple , you tag on and off. There is nothing else to it .

corktina

ah no it's OK to do what you did, just tell them someone on Boards said so....

Dravokivich

Hilly Bill wrote: »

How much more obvious do you want it? Its simple , you tag on and off. There is nothing else to it .

You know that.

I know that.

But its not about us we are talking of. I've seen loads of people gazzumped at gates unsure of what to do or what's just happened. The op being one I've read of now as well.

lucernarian

Hilly Bill wrote: »

How much more obvious do you want it? Its simple , you tag on and off. There is nothing else to it .

Can it be too obvious?? I'm sure it could be made more obvious compared to the current situation. And it can be regarded as ambiguous when some of the machines displayed "no ticket required" until recently. It wouldn't be much effort to display a "ticket/Leap tag-on still required" notice.

jordan7601

jordan7601 wrote: »

There is no one to ask if I have to swipe my card because I'm thinking that it won't work and might take all my credits or will charge me more.so i decided to hop in without swiping and intend to explain it at conolly station anyway. i can't believe how he can say that even though it's obvious i am not well.

jordan7601 wrote: »

i can't imagine even in my wildest dream not to pay a train fare. It is BROKEN/ NOT WORKING PROPERLY.

The investigator should at least have ask me to pay for a ticket at that point if he knew there is a fault in the platform.

jordan7601 wrote: »

I own two shops in city and 2 shops outside dublin area.

1. The barriers were working. There was no 'fault in the platform'. They were set in open position in order to account for no one being around to help if someone couldn't get through. No one has ever explained to me that this is why barriers are sometimes open. It's common sense.

2. Being sick, or owning shops, or being able to afford the fare, isn't an excuse for not paying it. You evaded the fare. You say you can't imagine in your wildest dream not paying? Well that's exactly what you did. I can't understand why you'd be confused as to why you got in trouble.

Dravokivich

true-or-false wrote: »

1. The barriers were working. There was no 'fault in the platform'. They were set in open position in order to account for no one being around to help if someone couldn't get through. No one has ever explained to me that this is why barriers are sometimes open. It's common sense.

It's common sense to those commonly using it. Someone who's just picked up a leap card and goes to a gate to scan it, and open the gate to enter or exit the station, are stumped when they come to an open gate they expect to be closed.

I've seen it many times.

OP didn't know at the time it was expected to happen and that they could still use their leap card.

true-or-false wrote: »

2. Being sick, or owning shops, or being able to afford the fare, isn't an excuse for not paying it. You evaded the fare. You say you can't imagine in your wildest dream not paying? Well that's exactly what you did. I can't understand why you'd be confused as to why you got in trouble.

The issue is that he didn't understand he could still use his leap card because the environment in the station he was departing from, wasn't as expected. He went their with the mindset of using his leap card. He isn't using it as an excusing but defining it as the reason after already posting previously that he'll accept the fine. But it doesn't take away from the fact that he didn't know the gates were still operating when they were left open.

Additionally saying he should have bought a ticket doesn't cover the query either. This is an instance where he could have used the leap card, but didn't know it.

Hilly Bill

Dravokivich wrote: »

You know that.

I know that.

But its not about us we are talking of. I've seen loads of people gazzumped at gates unsure of what to do or what's just happened. The op being one I've read of now as well.

Then maybe the Leap card is not for them .

Dravokivich

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Then maybe the Leap card is not for them .

If so, then it's for no-one.

Hilly Bill

Dravokivich wrote: »

If so, then it's for no-one.

99.9% percent of leap card users have no difficulty in understanding what to do with it at the barriers especially after being told what they have to do.

Dravokivich

Hilly Bill wrote: »

99.9% percent of leap card users have no difficulty in understanding what to do with it at the barriers especially after being told what they have to do.

You entirely sure on that?

It's been casually remarked here loads of times that people were put off using the leap card because it wasn't always too clear to them on how/when they could use it.

I saw someone "Tag off" at a validator that was switched off the other day. But sure, as long as they think they are understanding what they are doing...

Hilly Bill

Dravokivich wrote: »

You entirely sure on that?

It's been casually remarked here loads of times that people were put off using the leap card because it wasn't always too clear to them on how/when they could use it.

I saw someone "Tag off" at a validator that was switched off the other day. But sure, as long as they think they are understanding what they are doing...

Yep

There is a phone number and a web site address for Leap on the card so if anyone is in any doubt as to how the card works then they can either give Leap a call or check out the website . They can also read the leap card leaflets that are in the stations or ask a member of staff . It would make a bit of sense to suss out something before you buy it to make sure its meets your requirements .

Dravokivich

I've seen staff at Irish Rail give the wrong details too. But as this OP indicates, if the information is clear in the first place, their isn't a question or uncertainty over how to use it. He would of used the card. Gates left open are shown to be a source of confusion for people and to brush it aside as minor once off events shows a sense of carelessness to the user base.

And pushing it towards Leap doesn't do anything, as there was nothing they could get involved in on this instance. What's needed is to reduce the chance of occurrence in the user base, not educate one user after the event.

touts

jordan7601 wrote: »

Fare evasion means you decided not pay or avoid payment for fare. Leap card automatically deducts you the maximum if an incident you dint top on or top off in the start or end of journey. I explained to inspectors im getting off in connolly and we know for a fact there is no way you barriers are open over there. It is more ideal that the inspector charged me with another ticket. I will pay for this fine. 100 euro is nothing for me . I own two shops in city and 2 shops outside dublin area. Just a lesson to remind everyone else out there who dont know anything too about leap cards. How it should be used when platforms are open and NO ONE is present to be ask.

Which shops would those be because I want to see how far I would get if I walked out the open door (I presume people don't have to swipe in and out) with something I didn't pay for. "I forgot to pay for because there was no one at the till and like the door was open and therefore I just assumed that they were happy for me to take the stuff and leave. And I have one of those new easy swipe contactless Laser cards and I thought maybe they had installed a scanner on the door. But I really, really, honestly, swear guard, would have come back to pay once I realised I hadn't paid and they actually wanted me to pay, like.".

Can't blame them for doing their job. If only the rest of the civil service was as efficent.

Hilly Bill

Dravokivich wrote: »

I've seen staff at Irish Rail give the wrong details too. But as this OP indicates, if the information is clear in the first place, their isn't a question or uncertainty over how to use it. He would of used the card. Gates left open are shown to be a source of confusion for people and to brush it aside as minor once off events shows a sense of carelessness to the user base.

And pushing it towards Leap doesn't do anything, as there was nothing they could get involved in on this instance. What's needed is to reduce the chance of occurrence in the user base, not educate one user after the event.

How can anyone be confused with an open gate?

Dravokivich

Hilly Bill wrote: »

How can anyone be confused with an open gate?

They don't expect tagging to still work, as they think tagging results in a gate opening.

Hilly Bill

Dravokivich wrote: »

They don't expect tagging to still work, as they think tagging results in a gate opening.

All he had to do was attempt to tag on.

Dravokivich

Hilly Bill wrote: »

All he had to do was attempt to tag on.

Yet they don't. This thread isn't the first time I've seen things like this. It is a simple mistake to make. But one which can cost 100 euro and it's due to the user not understanding what's happening.

Hilly Bill

Dravokivich wrote: »

Yet they don't. This thread isn't the first time I've seen things like this. It is a simple mistake to make. But one which can cost 100 euro and it's due to the user not understanding what's happening.

I think the OP will know the next time .

Dravokivich

Hilly Bill wrote: »

I think the OP will know the next time .

But it's not just the OP.

Hilly Bill

Dravokivich wrote: »

But it's not just the OP.

Ok, THEY will know the next time. If you know that you have to tag on and off and it takes the balance from your card, then you know that you have to tag on and off even if a gate is open. If you try and tag on and it fails then you have done your bit . If a gate is open and you walk through without attempting to tag on then you know that you havent been charged at that point and that if a gate is open at your destination and you walk through without tagging off then you know that you havent been charged for that journey.
Maybe the answer would be either BIG SIGNS at an open gate telling you to tag on or a RPU chap with some sort of hand held device that will tag you on and deduct the fare when checked.

Dravokivich

Part of the answer would be less of the condescending...

People know they don't need to scan a ticket when the gate is open.

The actions of scanning a ticket/leap card on a closed gate can lead someone to think they only work to open the gate. Not to validate the start of the journey.

Hilly Bill

Dravokivich wrote: »

Part of the answer would be less of the condescending...

People know they don't need to scan a ticket when the gate is open.

The actions of scanning a ticket/leap card on a closed gate can lead someone to think they only work to open the gate. Not to validate the start of the journey.

Why do they think the money comes off the card then ?
Maybe another option is to chaparone them until they mastered the Leap card process .

Dravokivich

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Why do they think the money comes off the card then ?
Maybe another option is to chaparone them until they mastered the Leap card process .

Yes, are you available to do that? Because I think you're the most suitable as you know everything...

Hilly Bill

Dravokivich wrote: »

Yes, are you available to do that? Because I think you're the most suitable as you know everything...

Ive done it already

Dravokivich

Dravokivich wrote: »

It's common sense to those commonly using it. Someone who's just picked up a leap card and goes to a gate to scan it, and open the gate to enter or exit the station, are stumped when they come to an open gate they expect to be closed.

I've never used a Leap card and it seems pretty simple to me. Even if it wasn't simple, that's not an excuse. If you apply for a passport, you should read the instructions first. If you take medicine, you should read the leaflet first. Hell, I applied for a Boots advantage card (something of little importance to me) the other day and still managed to read the terms and conditions. But a lot of people don't. A lot of people shirk their responsibility to be informed before using a service/product, and then refuse to take blame if it goes wrong. Even without knowing how to use a leap card, the OP could still have called someone to ask about the situation, but instead, decided to use a service which had not been paid for. As already mentioned, it's the same as going into a store and shoplifting because you weren't sure where to pay.

With people to meet and places to be, people treat public transport like a right rather than a service. I do it too sometimes. But if I get on a train without paying, I'm not going to act surprised if I get fined. There quite simply is no excuse.

LXFlyer

To be fair Dravokivich I was in London recently and had cause to take a journey between two national rail stations one evening.

The barriers at both were open, but it was fairly obvious to me that given Oyster Pay-as-you-go is tag on / tag off that I needed to do precisely that - there were no special signs indicating this anywhere despite the barriers being open.

It's only when you have a period pass that you can walk straight through.

Indeed at another station I had to go hunting for the oyster reader to tag on, as a side entrance was being used (where there was no reader!!). I eventually found it on the far platform (the station building was shut). This to be fair would be unusual.

LEAP pay-as-you-go is no different to Oyster in that respect - it should be fairly obvious to everyone that you tag on/tag off regardless of barriers being open or shut.

bk

I wouldn't be so sure that it is obvious to everyone.

There are a whole bunch of peculiarities about Leap that seem to be catching people out.

It is something new to most people living in Dublin and I wouldn't blame them for making mistakes.

You tag-on/tag-off to open gates at Irish Rail stations, you tag-on/tag-off at readers on the Luas and you only tag-on on the bus.

I've seen plenty of people mistakenly try to tag-off on the bus and you can hardly blame them when some idiot got the bright idea to put posters on the bus saying don't forget to tag-off!!

We've also heard lots of people being confused on how the online top-ups work and the fact that they aren't applied on the bus.

There is a lot of inconsistency around how Leap works, that makes it unnecessarily complicated. It might seem obvious to us her on this forum who have been following the development from day one, but it may not be obvious at all to a general person who just wants to get to work.

Now I'm not defending the OP, I believe he was right to receive a fine, but I also think Irish Rail and Leap could give better and clearer information and sign-age on how this all works.

MonkstownHoop

jordan7601 wrote: »

USING LEAP CARD FOR DART STATIONS:

He penalized me 100.00 euro . great! im sick and injured, off at work. minimum pay.100.00 euro fine.
.

jordan7601 wrote: »

. I will pay for this fine. 100 euro is nothing for me . I own two shops in city and 2 shops outside dublin area..

:rolleyes:

I came across this once before. I got on at Lansdowne Road and the barriers were all open. At first I wasn't sure what to do and part of me was thinking of not getting on the train at all in case I got fined, but I tried to tag on my Leap card at the open barrier and it still worked. So I was a bit confused, but you just tag on as if the barrier was closed.

spdeveille

As far as I was aware I tagged on when a 'Revenue Protection' person said that I had give him an invalid ticket. He called me a far dodger. It made it quite angry. What am I going to do, jump over the barrier at Tara street in my suit.
Theres one tiny machine in my station and when its dark you cannt see the screen. In holland they have tag on/offs on the tram which is a much better idea.

Dravokivich

spdeveille wrote: »

As far as I was aware I tagged on when a 'Revenue Protection' person said that I had give him an invalid ticket. He called me a far dodger. It made it quite angry. What am I going to do, jump over the barrier at Tara street in my suit.
Theres one tiny machine in my station and when its dark you cannt see the screen. In holland they have tag on/offs on the tram which is a much better idea.

Appeal to Irish Rail, if you were unable to determine whether or not your card validated for the journey.

spdeveille

Dravokivich wrote: »

Appeal to Irish Rail, if you were unable to determine whether or not your card validated for the journey.

Sent them an email. Accidents do happen but what really annoyed me was the attitude of this guy. He wouldn’t let me speak, called me a cheat. In the past the railway employees have being brilliant, I really hope this fellow is not going to be the norm.

Victor

spdeveille wrote: »

Theres one tiny machine in my station and when its dark you cannt see the screen.

Which station? Can you report the problem?