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reason on a sick cert?

  • 23-06-2013 9:28am
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 550 ✭✭✭


    hey guys just wondering when your absent from work and your doctor writes you a cert signs, stamps and dates it is he obiliged to actually put a reason on it?? i've no objection to my employer knowing why i'm absent id tell him anyway but my doc says that for confidentally reasons he cant even though in our company handbook that's 11years old states that a cert with the reason clearly stated is needed on the cert.im confused :confused: can anyone help
    thanks


Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,332 ✭✭✭tatli_lokma


    hey guys just wondering when your absent from work and your doctor writes you a cert signs, stamps and dates it is he obiliged to actually put a reason on it?? i've no objection to my employer knowing why i'm absent id tell him anyway but my doc says that for confidentally reasons he cant even though in our company handbook that's 11years old states that a cert with the reason clearly stated is needed on the cert.im confused :confused: can anyone help
    thanks

    Strange indeed. Any Cert I've ever had, whether it be from a hospital, gp or out of hours doctor always had the 'unfit for work due to ....' on it. I think your doctor is talking nonsense TBH - as long as you give him/her permission to write a reason on it them confidentiality isn't an issue. Even if you don't want your employer to know the reason most doctors will agree to put a catch-all reason, like infection or stomach bug.

    I don't think there is a lot your employer can do about it either other than request you visit the company doctor. But if you are not one for regular absences and are a good worker they probably won't bother.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 360 ✭✭radia


    I'd say the doctor just means that for confidentiality reasons he's not going to put down a specific medical indication as the reason; I'm sure he'd have no problem writing a general reason such as "medical illness", "infection" or "surgery".

    I'm sure your company handbook's requirement for a reason would be met by that kind of general reason; there's no need for a detailed description such as "throat infection" or "appendectomy".

    So no conflict really.

    I've seen loads of med certs in my job and they're all very general in terms of reasons.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 550 ✭✭✭xxlauraxxox


    ya kinda found it odd myself ended up seeing an out of hours doc a few weeks ago he gave a cert wrote the reason on it and on my follow up certs from my gp I found he weird he never wrote anything ive just changed gps I found him 100% better than my last gp and when I returned to work I received a verbal warning as their was no reason on the certs that I handed in cus it found me in breech of my contract as my cert hadn't stated a reason I think when I pay my doctor he should put a reason on it but it doesn't help either when my employer rings him demanding reasons as to why im absent


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 181 ✭✭Morte


    Your employer certainly shouldn't ring your doctor directly. The doctor can't give out any confidential information without your permission.

    An employer shouldn't be happy with a blank cert at the same time, they have legal obligations of their own. They have a duty of care towards you and so need to know you're capable of resuming work. They will also have other obligations, such as people working with food and infectious diseases. Any sick cert I've ever seen has just given a 1 or 2 word description which is meaninglessly generic. But it should have something I would think. If you ask your doctor to put something down I'm sure he/she could.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,389 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    I think when I pay my doctor he should put a reason on it

    Exactly. Unless you don't want him to.

    I'd give him one last try, next time you get sick.

    If he still refuses to write a reason, looking him in the eye and ask "Are you trying to get me fired?" If he still refuses after that, find a new GP again as this one clearly doesn't have your best interests at heart.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 550 ✭✭✭xxlauraxxox


    Exactly. Unless you don't want him to.

    I'd give him one last try, next time you get sick.

    If he still refuses to write a reason, looking him in the eye and ask "Are you trying to get me fired?" If he still refuses after that, find a new GP again as this one clearly doesn't have your best interests at heart.

    he really does have my best interests at heart im not on here to my employer or my gp just double checking maybe he saw that the first cert that had went in had my reason writen and therefore didn't need repeat I dunno thanks guys for the reply ill demand an explain next time if unfortunate enough to need more time off thanks :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    With regard to demanding personal and sickness information - employers should take note of the following:

    Data Protection July 2013

    "Employers have to be vigilant to ensure they do not breach the Data Protection Acts when requesting information from their employees. In his annual report for 2012 the Data Protection Commissioner highlighted some decisions which deal with the kind of information employers can seek from their employees. One decision concerned a requirement of the Department of Education that teachers on sick leave provide a medical certificate that not only certified that they were unfit for work, but also gave the nature of the illness. The Commissioner held that this information was sensitive personal data, and that requiring this information to be provided in all cases by teachers on sick leave was a breach of the Data Protection Acts. The Department of Education has amended its policy accordingly."

    Employers do not have a "right" to detailed personal information.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,389 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    gozunda wrote: »
    With regard to demanding personal and sickness information - employers should take note of the following:

    Data Protection July 2013

    "Employers have to be vigilant to ensure they do not breach the Data Protection Acts when requesting information from their employees. In his annual report for 2012 the Data Protection Commissioner highlighted some decisions which deal with the kind of information employers can seek from their employees. One decision concerned a requirement of the Department of Education that teachers on sick leave provide a medical certificate that not only certified that they were unfit for work, but also gave the nature of the illness. The Commissioner held that this information was sensitive personal data, and that requiring this information to be provided in all cases by teachers on sick leave was a breach of the Data Protection Acts. The Department of Education has amended its policy accordingly."

    Employers do not have a "right" to detailed personal information.


    Linky please ...


    TBH, the above concerns me. There are situations where an employer needs to know the general nature of the illness, and perhaps even some details, to safely manage the employee's return to the workforce - safely for the employee, their colleagues and the customer / client.

    For exampe a teacher freind of mine had back surgery. She was signed off by her doctor as fine to return to work. But there were certain characteristics of an autistic child in her class that meant it was essential that the school knew about the type of surgery and how dangerous it would have been for her to be hit in the back, and put in place measures to reduce the risks (mix on SNAs, shared teaching spaces etc)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Linky please ...

    TBH, the above concerns me. There are situations where an employer needs to know the general nature of the illness, and perhaps even some details, to safely manage the employee's return to the workforce - safely for the employee, their colleagues and the customer / client.

    For exampe a teacher freind of mine had back surgery. She was signed off by her doctor as fine to return to work. But there were certain characteristics of an autistic child in her class that meant it was essential that the school knew about the type of surgery and how dangerous it would have been for her to be hit in the back, and put in place measures to reduce the risks (mix on SNAs, shared teaching spaces etc)

    Specific links available on search - but here is the one I quoted from
    http://www.peterduff.com/news.php?ID=3 ( ie no I didn't make it up!)

    It may be of concern some but such information is classified as Sensitive Information and is also protected under Data protection - where there is an issue concerning a return to work with a permanent or temporary disability then that is a diffetent scenario and employer and employee would need to discuss the general nature and how any condition or disability can be catered for. That said an Employee is still not obliged to hand over private medical information no matter how much employers 'think' they have a right to such information

    Doctors do have a responsibility to protect patient confidentiality and employers cannot attempt to harangue or threaten employees to hand over such information as outlined in the Data Protection provisions above.

    This is one of the reasons why the practice of absence interviews concerns me - if I remember correctly a poster recently gave details about being interrogated on the alleged symptoms for her certified absence - this type of behaviour is not acceptable whether HR or management think / believe that it is.

    The above from the Data Protection commissioner least clarifies this..


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,389 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Thanks for the link.

    But just to be clear, it is to is information posted on the internet by one particular Irish-based law firm, about the 2012 annual report of the Irish Data Protection Commissioner.

    The actual souurce document, should anyone want to read it, is here: http://www.dataprotection.ie/viewdoc.asp?m=&fn=/documents/annualreports/Annual_Report_2012.pdf


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Thanks for the link.

    But just to be clear, it is to is information posted on the internet by one particular Irish-based law firm, about the 2012 annual report of the Irish Data Protection Commissioner.

    The actual souurce document, should anyone want to read it, is here: http://www.dataprotection.ie/viewdoc.asp?m=&fn=/documents/annualreports/Annual_Report_2012.pdf

    Yes thanks for that - that's what I meant about the specific links available - I put up a more readable version tbh

    The detail is basically the same imo

    For reference the full preamble is on page 58- 59


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,697 ✭✭✭horse7


    I'm looking at the citizens advice web page,and it says the employer may require a doctor's certificate, so should I get a copy of the doctors cert,or ask the doctor for 2 certs?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    horse7 wrote: »
    I'm looking at the citizens advice web page,and it says the employer may require a doctor's certificate, so should I get a copy of the doctors cert,or ask the doctor for 2 certs?

    Or give the cert your GP gives you to your employer, that's what it's for.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,697 ✭✭✭horse7


    I thought it had to be sent to dept.social protection


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    The doctor will give you a note. This is different from the social welfare cert.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,697 ✭✭✭horse7


    Thanks


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,373 ✭✭✭selous


    I had this experience, for years, or all the times I was sick the family gp always put the "unfit for work due to....."

    Then I started using the company doc, and he didn't put a reason on it and when I queried it he said he didn't have to, for patient confidentiality, and if the manager has a problem with it he can ring me, and question my professionalism, I gave the note in, manager said nothing, Head office sent the note back out with "No illness stated" on it,
    I had to go back and get a proper certified note, the doc said that the union should act on this as the company does not have to know the illness but that the fact you visited me and I certified you ill. (this was the company doctor saying this)
    I did ask the union sometime later about it, the answer I got was, "They don't have to pay you if you don't get a reason" (which is not true, as I found out off someone else, female workers were not getting reasons on them, and the company didn't query it)
    But a reason is now not required on a cert, and on your sick record "other" is listed.

    I don't care if a reason is or isn't put on the note, as I am usually sick if I have to see a doc, but I don't like my manager knowing what's up, and you have to see him for a back to work review when you return, to see you don't go sick too often, which I think is worse than a reason on your cert. he's a manager not a medical man,


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,804 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    I know one place I worked as a manager wouldn’t let us take certs with no reason given.
    Employees continuing this were sent to company doctor and “managed appropriately” was the term used behind closed doors.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 166,012 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    Especially since GDPR came into force there is no requirement to provide a nature of illness to an employer.

    I have been working with HR teams to change their processes to catch up with this change. If a company needs to know the nature of the illness to ensure the employee is fit for work and has an appropriate work environment then they may be sent to a company doctor. Their medical information would only be passed onto another medical professional and not the company.

    There is no requirement to pass on a nature of illness.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,344 ✭✭✭Thoie


    Your doctor can put something vague like "illness" or "injury". If you want, they could say "gastric illness" or "ankle injury". They do not need to go into specifics like "Mary is unfit for work because she buggered her left ankle playing soccer on the green with the kids after 15 pints, then spent the night puking her guts up after an unwise kebab".

    While my certs are pretty generic, I usually give my boss an inkling of what was wrong, but I don't have to.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,743 ✭✭✭Wanderer2010


    _Brian wrote: »
    I know one place I worked as a manager wouldn’t let us take certs with no reason given.
    Employees continuing this were sent to company doctor and “managed appropriately” was the term used behind closed doors.

    Dangerous road to go down there if you are talking about bullying out your workers, certainly you would be well within your rights to refuse giving the reason if it was sensitive and sending someone to the company doctor is tricky because if you do it to one, you must do it to all and personally, if I were being sent to the doctor on foot of not providing a reason on a cert, I would be questioning this with my union rep and solicitor. Way too many dodgy employers out there.


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