New car purchasing, cultural question?

hechz

I am moving over here from the States, and need a primer on the culture, and process of buying a new car. I don't want to walk in and approach the situation the wrong way.
Currently I drive a 2006 1.6L Civic, which I purchased new. I have been very happy with it, but I cannot bring it over, of course, since it is left-hand drive.
I'd like another Civic, perhaps the (new?) Diesel Model being promoted on www.honda.ie

So here are my question:

1. I wouldn't mind a buying new, but are prices negotiable? Or, are the list prices what you pay? In the States, if you are not financing or can put down a large percentage down payment you can get quite a bit taken off of the list price. Is that so here?
   
2. Are car salesmen here commission based sellers, or are they salaried employees performing a retail service?
   
3. I've seen mention made of insurance and other car related expenses being included. Is that a standard practice, or a promotional enticement?
   
4. Are list prices inclusive of all taxes and levies? When purchasing a car in the US, the dealership handles securing temporary registration (license) plates, and submits the order for permanent tags to the state. Does a similar process occur here?
   
5. If I go the used route, are there consumer protection laws in-place (lemon laws) wherein if the car is defective, within the first 30-45 days the seller must accept the car back?

Sorry in advance if these are answered in any FAQs, I've tried searching, but probably haven't been searching for the proper terminology.


Thanks in advance.

SeanW

You can bring a left hand drive car I think, lots of Eastern Europeans have brought their cars from their home countries to Ireland, I've also seen Spanish and German plates around. It might spike your insurance costs though. You would have to get new (Irish) license plates for your car, though you would avoid paying VRT on the transaction. One thing you will like is that license plates are permanent here, they don't expire every ~3 years and don't have to be renewed.

Don't know enough about the process of buying a new car to comment on your points 1-4, but there are no "lemon laws" here, your best bet would be to get a good guarantee from the seller, though possibly better if you could get the vehicle checked out by a 3rd party first.

Also be careful about diesel - modern diesels are only suitable for a driving pattern that includes frequent long, fast drives.

Marcusm

SeanW wrote: »

Don't know enough about the process of buying a new car to comment on your points 1-4, but there are no "lemon laws" here, your best bet would be to get a good guarantee from the seller, though possibly better if you could get the vehicle checked out by a 3rd party first.

I'd disagree with this point, the Sale fo Goods & Supply of Services Act 1980 is the principal consumer protection law and applies to cars as it applies to other goods. They must be of merchantable quality and fit for purpose; the dealer must deal with any faults or defects (as opposed to damage yo may cause) irrespective of whatever warranty he or the manufacturer offers. If the defect is sufficiently great, it is up to the consumer to reject the goods after a period of testing (ie normal driving). I have seen it suggested that with respect to cars, any rejection on these grounds must occur within 6 months. The rejection cannot simply be on grounds of taste or dissatisfaction but inherent defect.

The National Consumer Agency has a publication on car buying/selling.

http://www.nca.ie/media/GuidetoBuyingaCar1.pdf

I doubt that a 2006 Civic would be worth importing on a permanent basis taking account of likely transport, testing and reregistration costs. Maybe buy a clunker until you decide whether you really want to splash out, depending on your new lifestyle etc.

valerossi

Both used and new car prices are very negotiable, especially with cash.You will find that buying from garages offers more protection than buying privately. Conduct detailed research on any car you intend on buying including prices. New cars may or may-not have delivery and vat included. All vehicles require road taxing (price depends on engine size and emissions, eg 1.4 petrol about €400 annually). All cars must have at least third party fire and theft insurance and only the insured may drive the car, i believe the car is insured in the USA and anyone with a license may drive it but here only people who are named on the policy may legally drive it unless open insurance is purchased. The cost of insurance is determined by driving experience and engine size etc. You may only take your new car once it is insured which is normally done by you and all reg plates will be on the car the day of collection, regarding road tax only promotional new cars and some used cars come with it but grace periods are giving to arrange taxing on newly purchased cars. Keep in mind it only takes minutes to get insured once the broker has all the info like number plate and your license details.

Captain Slow IRL

1) Ring around as many dealers that you can, you will find a variation in price on the same (new) car depending on who you buy from. It won't be a whole lot but don't go buying the first one you enquire about.

2) Any salesmen I know are on a commision

3) It's promotional. Right now we have a new license plate introduced so a lot of dealers will stick some promotions on to get cars out of the door.

4) I'm not 100% sure on new cars but it should be the case with second hand - sticker price is the "out-the-door" price. You would have to ask the dealer what's the final price for a new car.

5) No, caveat emptor!

mickdw

hechz wrote: »

So here are my question:

1. I wouldn't mind a buying new, but are prices negotiable? Or, are the list prices what you pay? In the States, if you are not financing or can put down a large percentage down payment you can get quite a bit taken off of the list price. Is that so here?
   
2. Are car salesmen here commission based sellers, or are they salaried employees performing a retail service?
   
3. I've seen mention made of insurance and other car related expenses being included. Is that a standard practice, or a promotional enticement?
   
4. Are list prices inclusive of all taxes and levies? When purchasing a car in the US, the dealership handles securing temporary registration (license) plates, and submits the order for permanent tags to the state. Does a similar process occur here?
   
5. If I go the used route, are there consumer protection laws in-place (lemon laws) wherein if the car is defective, within the first 30-45 days the seller must accept the car back?

Sorry in advance if these are answered in any FAQs, I've tried searching, but probably haven't been searching for the proper terminology.


Thanks in advance.

There will be room for bargaining built into list price specially as you are not trading an old car in.
Salesmen here would be on basic salary plus sale commission.
The price you agree with dealer will include registration. We have motor tax here which is paid annually and for a new civic would be about 150 per year. You generally have to look after this yourself but could possibly get a years tax thrown into deal.
All you need then insurance. This is mandatory. We don't have any other registration charges to pay yearly just the motor tax. So in short, to be Road legal, you need motor tax, insurance and car test cert if car was over 4 years old. You also need a driving licence.

With a new car you are well covered re defects although we don't have a clear lemon law like the States.

CiniO

valerossi wrote: »

Both used and new car prices are very negotiable, especially with cash.You will find that buying from garages offers more protection than buying privately. Conduct detailed research on any car you intend on buying including prices. New cars may or may-not have delivery and vat included. All vehicles require road taxing (price depends on engine size and emissions, eg 1.4 petrol about €400 annually). All cars must have at least third party fire and theft insurance and only the insured may drive the car, i believe the car is insured in the USA and anyone with a license may drive it but here only people who are named on the policy may legally drive it unless open insurance is purchased. The cost of insurance is determined by driving experience and engine size etc. You may only take your new car once it is insured which is normally done by you and all reg plates will be on the car the day of collection, regarding road tax only promotional new cars and some used cars come with it but grace periods are giving to arrange taxing on newly purchased cars. Keep in mind it only takes minutes to get insured once the broker has all the info like number plate and your license details.

Obligatory insurance is only third party. Fire and theft cover are volountary.

And what is the grace period given to arrange taxing of newly purchased car?

Matt Simis

CiniO wrote: »

And what is the grace period given to arrange taxing of newly purchased car?

Im sure he means an effective grace period, about 1mth. Remember the OP wont be familar with our laws in this regard, which on paper means he needs Tax on the car to drive.. meaning he cannot buy and drive any untaxed car at all.

He says this to a Salesperson and he will be told, "dont worry about it, get it next week". Which in this case is fine. Better to give real world, not technically this is how it should be answers.

CiniO

Matt Simis wrote: »

Im sure he means an effective grace period, about 1mth. Remember the OP wont be familar with our laws in this regard, which on paper means he needs Tax on the car to drive.. meaning he cannot buy and drive any untaxed car at all.

Because legally he can not.
There isn't any grace period.

Only thing we should mention is that in practice obviously he can drive and in case he gets pulled over by gards (police) he can explain the circumstances and will be allright). And even if gard (policeman) don't believe it and decides to prosecute, then OP can buy a tax eventually and tell it the the judge in court that he bought tax eventually and case against him will be dismissed.
That's how it works in Ireland with lots of things, but its different to having a grace period.

I think it's important for someone moving here to be able to distinguish difference between what's required by law, and how it works in practice, as I'm sure in America there aren't differences like that.

valerossi

CiniO wrote: »

Because legally he can not.
There isn't any grace period.

Only thing we should mention is that in practice obviously he can drive and in case he gets pulled over by gards (police) he can explain the circumstances and will be allright). And even if gard (policeman) don't believe it and decides to prosecute, then OP can buy a tax eventually and tell it the the judge in court that he bought tax eventually and case against him will be dismissed.
That's how it works in Ireland with lots of things, but its different to having a grace period.

I think it's important for someone moving here to be able to distinguish difference between what's required by law, and how it works in practice, as I'm sure in America there aren't differences like that.

You may only be fined for having no tax once one calender month has passed since it ran out and a car can only be taxed once you have a log book.

AltAccount

valerossi wrote: »

Both used and new car prices are very negotiable, especially with cash.You will find that buying from garages offers more protection than buying privately. Conduct detailed research on any car you intend on buying including prices. New cars may or may-not have delivery and vat included. All vehicles require road taxing (price depends on engine size and emissions, eg 1.4 petrol about €400 annually). All cars must have at least third party fire and theft insurance and only the insured may drive the car, i believe the car is insured in the USA and anyone with a license may drive it but here only people who are named on the policy may legally drive it unless open insurance is purchased. The cost of insurance is determined by driving experience and engine size etc. You may only take your new car once it is insured which is normally done by you and all reg plates will be on the car the day of collection, regarding road tax only promotional new cars and some used cars come with it but grace periods are giving to arrange taxing on newly purchased cars. Keep in mind it only takes minutes to get insured once the broker has all the info like number plate and your license details.

Wow, there's a lot of wrong information in this post! :eek:

CiniO

valerossi wrote: »

You may only be fined for having no tax once one calender month has passed since it ran out

This is purely not true.
If your tax runs out at the end of June, then you can be fined on 1st July for driving untaxed vehicle. That's the law.

and a car can only be taxed once you have a log book.

That's most likely true which together with law mentioned above the whole situation ridiculous.

serious3

is the american licence valid here?

valerossi

AltAccount wrote: »

Wow, there's a lot of wrong information in this post! :eek:

Please correct me?

TrailerBob

Ah not this argument again... Nobody in this country has ever been fined for their tax being out by a day, or even by a couple of weeks to the best of my knowledge. Law or not.. This law is not, and has never been enforced as it is unenforceable. If you buy a car there is a grace period in order to tax it once you get the logbook.
After 3 months the Gardai have legal powers to seize a vehicle, and as far as I can see, most won't bother to give you trouble until that point. Exception I suppose is the anpr checks.

OP.

Buying a car here is relatively straight forward. Dealers in this country are fairly desperate to sell cars at the mo, so should give you a good deal on a straight price. You are in a strong position as you have no trade in to worry about. Just go in and negotiate and see what you can get

AltAccount

valerossi wrote: »

Both used and new car prices are very negotiable, especially with cash.You will find that buying from garages offers more protection than buying privately. Conduct detailed research on any car you intend on buying including prices. New cars may or may-not have delivery and vat included. All vehicles require road taxing (price depends on engine size and emissions, eg 1.4 petrol about €400 annually). All cars must have at least third party fire and theft insurance and only the insured may drive the car, i believe the car is insured in the USA and anyone with a license may drive it but here only people who are named on the policy may legally drive it unless open insurance is purchased. The cost of insurance is determined by driving experience and engine size etc. You may only take your new car once it is insured which is normally done by you and all reg plates will be on the car the day of collection, regarding road tax only promotional new cars and some used cars come with it but grace periods are giving to arrange taxing on newly purchased cars. Keep in mind it only takes minutes to get insured once the broker has all the info like number plate and your license details.

Cash offers no additional bargaining power
All cars will have VAT included
No requirement for fire & theft cover
Insurance is always arranged by you (very few exceptions)
No grace period on tax, only individual Garda discretion

Happy?

CiniO

TrailerBob wrote: »

Ah not this argument again... Nobody in this country has ever been fined for their tax being out by a day, or even by a couple of weeks to the best of my knowledge. Law or not.. This law is not, and has never been enforced as it is unenforceable. If you buy a car there is a grace period in order to tax it once you get the logbook.
After 3 months the Gardai have legal powers to seize a vehicle, and as far as I can see, most won't bother to give you trouble until that point. Exception I suppose is the anpr checks.

See every law should be enforcible.
It's not being enforced to accommodate the fact that law is flawed (making it unable to be obeyed in some cases).
If law was properly written, then there would be no reason not to enforce it.

But it looks like it's not just this.
There is hundreds if not thousands of law in Ireland which car impossible to be obeyed, and therefore they are not being enforced to accommodate it.

Isn't it clever?

TrailerBob

Show me any country that has all if its laws perfectly enforceable, or one that doesn't have some silly ancient law on its statute.

The OP asked for a cultural heads up on car buying, not a breakdown of the Irish statute book.

Culturally, you buy a car, wait for the ownership document or logbook, and then you tax the car. Nobody will fine you during that 2 week changeover.. Nobody

valerossi

AltAccount wrote: »

Cash offers no additional bargaining power
All cars will have VAT included
No requirement for fire & theft cover
Insurance is always arranged by you (very few exceptions)
No grace period on tax, only individual Garda discretion

Happy?

Nope:
I have bought 8 new cars in the last 10 years and never has insurence been arranged for me,

Most cars advertised DO NOT include all charges,

CASH IS KING and say i bought a car for 40,000 and gave 15,000 in cash expect at least free extras and some money off.

You cannot tax a car without a log book so technically theirs your grace period.

Ok so i don't need fire and theft you got me:(

George Dalton

valerossi wrote: »

CASH IS KING and say i bought a car for 40,000 and gave 15,000 in cash expect at least free extras and some money off.

Why? What advantage is 15k cash versus the full amount in a bank draft? Handling cash is extra hassle and cost for any business, most garages will prefer you to just pay by bank draft.

The only way cash is an advantage to a garage is if they are not intending to declare the full selling price to revenue.

valerossi

[QUOTE=George Dalton

The only way cash is an advantage to a garage is if they are not intending to declare the full selling price to revenue.[/QUOTE]

EXACTLY!:D

CiniO

TrailerBob wrote: »

Show me any country that has all if its laws perfectly enforceable, or one that doesn't have some silly ancient law on its statute.

No countrys law is perfect.
But I went through big shock when I moved from Poland to Ireland.
In Poland generally all laws are enforcible and if you are breaking any, you always might be fined or prosecuted.
And then on the other hand there isn't any stupid situation where you can't legally do something (f.e. drive your car).
It's just if law says you can't do X (f.e. you can't drive untested vehicle) then it really means you can't do X. If you are caught doing X, then you will be prosecuted.
And because of this law, system is so designed, that if you do everything rightly, you won't need to do X.

In Ireland f.e. I can't drive a vehicle without NCT, but when I import a vehicle, pay VRT, register it, then it might be weeks or months before I can have it NCTs.
Am I supposed not to drive if for those weeks or months?
Or am I supposed to break the law?

By now, I've learnt that in Ireland I'm supposed to break the law, because gards know that law is flawed and accomodate for it.

But I wouldn't call this situation normal, and no one coming from foreign country would expect it.

AltAccount

valerossi wrote: »

Nope:
I have bought 8 new cars in the last 10 years and never has insurence been arranged for me,

Most cars advertised DO NOT include all charges,

CASH IS KING and say i bought a car for 40,000 and gave 15,000 in cash expect at least free extras and some money off.

You cannot tax a car without a log book so technically theirs your grace period.

Ok so i don't need fire and theft you got me:(

I was going to say I insurance is always arranged by you, but I thought some pedant would bring up promotional insurance sometimes included in new car purchase, so I included the caveat.

New and used car pricing will always include VAT &VRT, new cars will normally have delivery charges broken out separately

Cash does not give you extra bargaining power. That's just a fact; no matter how expensive the car you bought was.

You can tax your new car online on the same day it's registered. You need to wait for the logbook if you buy a second hand car. There is NO grace period for driving a car without tax, only Garda discretion.

Scortho

TrailerBob wrote: »

Show me any country that has all if its laws perfectly enforceable, or one that doesn't have some silly ancient law on its statute.

The OP asked for a cultural heads up on car buying, not a breakdown of the Irish statute book.

Culturally, you buy a car, wait for the ownership document or logbook, and then you tax the car. Nobody will fine you during that 2 week changeover.. Nobody

What happens if you buy a car that's had no tax for 2 years?
I know that I wouldn't be liable for the back tax, but driving her home (insured and nctd) what would happen if I get pulled over.
I'm not taxing the thing until the start of July (90 quid saving).

TrailerBob

If you can show some proof of purchase within the previous day or so then the same situation applies. New owner has to be able to bring the car home.

George Dalton

AltAccount wrote: »

You can tax your new car online on the same day it's registered. You need to wait for the logbook if you buy a second hand car. There is NO grace period for driving a car without tax, only Garda discretion.

You don't actually need the logbook to tax a secondhand car. Once the car is in your name you can tax it without the book.

So for example when we sell a car we usually do the change of ownership online. After 2 working days (and sometimes sooner) the car will be in the new owner's name and they can then go to the tax office and tax the car, even without the book. The logbook usually arrives in the post within 5 working days.

hechz

serious3 wrote: »

is the american licence valid here?

It is for tourism, I'll get a year grace period once I have an International Driving Permit. I am planning on getting my Irish license straight away. I'm looking at the various ADIs around. I presume that if I am fully licensed, I'll be in a good position regarding insurance and all. Then'll go out looking for my own car. Thanks for all of the great information, it's given me a lot more to research on.

valerossi

AltAccount wrote: »

I was going to say I insurance is always arranged by you, but I thought some pedant would bring up promotional insurance sometimes included in new car purchase, so I included the caveat.

New and used car pricing will always include VAT &VRT, new cars will normally have delivery charges broken out separately

Cash does not give you extra bargaining power. That's just a fact; no matter how expensive the car you bought was.

You can tax your new car online on the same day it's registered. You need to wait for the logbook if you buy a second hand car. There is NO grace period for driving a car without tax, only Garda discretion.

The question related to new cars advertised and when you see them advertised not all charges are included eg delivery and extras.

You need an RF100 form from the dealer to tax a car, i am unaware of any method online.

Cash can and can not be declared say i agree to pay so much in cash for a discount and the dealer does not declare the cash to revenue that is instant profit for him and it easily happens with new cars if you approach it in the correct manner.

hechz

Is the logbook in question, the log of the vehicles ownership history?

I am pretty sad that cash, won't help. I didn't even think about the differences in how vehicles are financed. The parent company of a dealership in the States has a financing arm, in my case http://www.hondafinancialservices.com/ which does all of the loan and payment processing. I infer that here it is the buyers responsibility to secure any loan personally. That really does sap all the benefit from avoiding the loan process for the dealership. They get their money from the finance company when the principle has been paid in full. If I am interpreting it right, here the car is purchased just like milk at the grocery. Pay it in full and you have it, where the money comes from is your problem.

AltAccount

valerossi wrote: »

The question related to new cars advertised and when you see them advertised not all charges are included eg delivery and extras.

You need an RF100 form from the dealer to tax a car, i am unaware of any method online.

Cash can and can not be declared say i agree to pay so much in cash for a discount and the dealer does not declare the cash to revenue that is instant profit for him and it easily happens with new cars if you approach it in the correct manner.

You specifically mentioned VAT, that's what I responded to.

You can print off an RF100 as soon as the car is registered. It includes instructions how to tax online. Your password will be the last 6 digits of your chassis number.

I can't comment on whether a faker is dishonest or a tax dodger, nor shall I comment on whether you should be complicit in it.
I still contend that cash gives no additional purchasing power, and if you're talking about tax dodging, I don't know how much the dealer will save in tax versus the financial commission available if they put you into an honest and legitimate finance deal.

hechz

AltAccount wrote: »

You specifically mentioned VAT, that's what I responded to.

You can print off an RF100 as soon as the car is registered. It includes instructions how to tax online. Your password will be the last 6 digits of your chassis number.

I can't comment on whether a faker is dishonest or a tax dodger, nor shall I comment on whether you should be complicit in it.
I still contend that cash gives no additional purchasing power, and if you're talking about tax dodging, I don't know how much the dealer will save in tax versus the financial commission available if they put you into an honest and legitimate finance deal.

I've got to say, I wouldn't want to do business with someone that is gonna scam on the taxes to the government. I wouldn't know if they are scamming me too.

AltAccount

hechz wrote: »

Is the logbook in question, the log of the vehicles ownership history?

I am pretty sad that cash, won't help. I didn't even think about the differences in how vehicles are financed. The parent company of a dealership in the States has a financing arm, in my case http://www.hondafinancialservices.com/ which does all of the loan and payment processing. I infer that here it is the buyers responsibility to secure any loan personally. That really does sap all the benefit from avoiding the loan process for the dealership. They get their money from the finance company when the principle has been paid in full. If I am interpreting it right, here the car is purchased just like milk at the grocery. Pay it in full and you have it, where the money comes from is your problem.

Dealers here are also more than happy to arrange finance for you. It's the same as the states - your savings/cash, dealer arranged finance or finance you arrange through your own bank.

AltAccount

hechz wrote: »

I've got to say, I wouldn't want to do business with someone that is gonna scam on the taxes to the government. I wouldn't know if they are scamming me too.

Me neither, if they're dishonest with the tax man, who's to say they won't be dishonest with you?

hechz

That is great, then... unless as it is back home, you can get a much better interest rate from your bank if you have good history. Too bad I have no credit history here yet. That's why I'll put quite a bit down, should make securing financing for the remainder easier.

hechz

Thank you so much for all of the good info, even the conflicting bits!

Good to see people with a bit of the old Internet culture still going strong.

Tea 1000

valerossi wrote: »

EXACTLY!:D

That doesn't happen with new cars. You think Revenue are stupid? "Oh look, you sold a brand new 520d for €25,000.... I'll see how you explain that in court!"

Tea 1000

hechz wrote: »

That is great, then... unless as it is back home, you can get a much better interest rate from your bank if you have good history. Too bad I have no credit history here yet. That's why I'll put quite a bit down, should make securing financing for the remainder easier.

Not here these days. The banks here are f**ked, and aren't lending as frequently as they'd like us to believe. Interest rates are high these days. That's why many dealers are doing finance deals that are better than the banks.
Welcome to Ireland in advance!

valerossi

AltAccount wrote: »

You specifically mentioned VAT, that's what I responded to.

You can print off an RF100 as soon as the car is registered. It includes instructions how to tax online. Your password will be the last 6 digits of your chassis number.

I can't comment on whether a faker is dishonest or a tax dodger, nor shall I comment on whether you should be complicit in it.
I still contend that cash gives no additional purchasing power, and if you're talking about tax dodging, I don't know how much the dealer will save in tax versus the financial commission available if they put you into an honest and legitimate finance deal.[/QUOTE

I paid 98,000 last Year in tax as i am self employed i get very little in return. no safety net if i lost everything tomorrow who would feed my family, pay my bill as i will never be entitled to social welfare. If i want to skim off the top let me the state takes more that enough off me!

hechz

I ended up in very similar circumstance in the states. I've got the IRS on my tail for a large bill, paid into social security for years and will never see a dime of it. That and the bubble bursting taking all my savings... as y'all say, "feck 'em all"