Obama Administration - Global Menace

TheSB

Obama declared he would have the most open administration in history. So far all we have had are lies, scandals and cover ups. He is a supporter of indefinite detention without trial and has been conducting the largest intrusion of privacy the world has ever seen. He sends drones to Pakistan and just kills random innocent people (signature drone strikes). It had to be coerced out of him that he would not use drone attacks within the continental US.


Now it appears his administration is cracking down on journalists. Michael Hastings the journalist who brought down General McChrystal was pettrified the government was after him:




We also have the CBS journalist Sharyl Attkisson whos computer was hacked following her questioning of the terrorist attack at Benghazi. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/wp/2013/06/14/sharyl-attkissons-computer-what-could-have-prompted-breaches/

Can you really question the government, now that they know EVERYTHING about you?? Obama has not only destroyed the 4th (privacy rights) and 6th (fair and speedy trial) amendments but he is slowly working on the 1st.

Mardy Bum

The propaganda which the Obama administration put out during his two elections have to be considered as some of the most successful lies any leader has managed to use and create a cult of personality with successfully.

Jonny7

Obama has been trying to close Guantanamo - there's been obstructionism, legal complications and so on. Easy to open, hard to close it would seem.

The drone war is contentious but does not target civilians directly. The figures on civilian deaths from drone strikes range from 20% to less than 5%, with those figures dropping significantly in the past 3 years. Often overlooked is the fact that these drones targeting the militants who are responsible for thousands of deaths every year - dwarfing casualties from the drones themselves.

As for PRISM, it's very big, probably bigger than Echelon - but it's surveillance, security. The worst it will be used for is spying on other governments and organisations communications - which has been going on since the year dot. At best it might prevent a plot or two a year and help the prosecution and investigation of current cases and suspects.

He's doing a much better job than the last guy anyway. Still, the US administration seems to be a bit slow in bringing themselves forward into the 21st century regarding transparency.

deseil

They are the biggest terrorists in the world! The Bin laden assassination alone was a disgrace. Who made them the kings of the world. Sticking their noses in everyones business its no wonder they are hated and feared around the world.

A Primal Nut

deseil wrote: »

They are the biggest terrorists in the world! The Bin laden assassination alone was a disgrace. Who made them the kings of the world. Sticking their noses in everyones business its no wonder they are hated and feared around the world.

Bin Laden was very much their business. Why are you so horrified that Bin Laden was killed?

esteve

Jonny7 wrote: »

Obama has been trying to close Guantanamo - there's been obstructionism, legal complications and so on. Easy to open, hard to close it would seem.

The drone war is contentious but does not target civilians directly. The figures on civilian deaths from drone strikes range from 20% to less than 5%, with those figures dropping significantly in the past 3 years. Often overlooked is the fact that these drones targeting the militants who are responsible for thousands of deaths every year - dwarfing casualties from the drones themselves.

As for PRISM, it's very big, probably bigger than Echelon - but it's surveillance, security. The worst it will be used for is spying on other governments and organisations communications - which has been going on since the year dot. At best it might prevent a plot or two a year and help the prosecution and investigation of current cases and suspects.

He's doing a much better job than the last guy anyway. Still, the US administration seems to be a bit slow in bringing themselves forward into the 21st century regarding transparency.

You do know there are various other Guantanomo style facilities that have been opened under Obama, where the rendition programme is very much alive and well.

The drone war is way beyong contentious, Obama is a constitutional lawyer by trade, and knows well that the drone programme is bordering on illegal. He has the executive power to order the assasination of a person in another country, where there may be no concrete evidence linking this person to any terrorist activity, and at the same time, can kill civilians in the meantime as collateral damage. Its an unbelievable act of terror that goes far beyond Pakistan, but to Somalia nd Yemen also, and simple creates unbelievable anti-Us sentiment with the people on the receivng end, both directly and indirectly.

PRISM is beyond surveillance and its legality is debatle.

Obama is not much better than Bush, i guess he hasnt invaded a country..yet.

So very easy to spot an Obama-ite.

Jonny7

esteve wrote: »

You do know there are various other Guantanomo style facilities that have been opened under Obama, where the rendition programme is very much alive and well.

I am aware of facilities closing, which ones opened?

The drone war is way beyong contentious, Obama is a constitutional lawyer by trade, and knows well that the drone programme is bordering on illegal. He has the executive power to order the assasination of a person in another country, where there may be no concrete evidence linking this person to any terrorist activity, and at the same time, can kill civilians in the meantime as collateral damage. Its an unbelievable act of terror that goes far beyond Pakistan, but to Somalia nd Yemen also, and simple creates unbelievable anti-Us sentiment with the people on the receivng end, both directly and indirectly.

I think Obama should stop the drone war entirely. Let the fledgling Afghan army and Pakistan military deal with the Pashtun militia's.

PRISM is beyond surveillance and its legality is debatle.

In what way is it beyond surveillance, can you provide examples?

Obama is not much better than Bush, i guess he hasnt invaded a country..yet.

International opinion of Obama is markedly higher than Bush, domestically it is also higher.

In 2006/2007 I walked into a large bookshop, they had an entire section dedicated to Bush, Cheney, the Neocons, the war on terror, Iraq - virtually all critical.

Whatever people say about Obama - Bush was deeply unpopular, especially internationally.

So yes, relatively speaking, he's much better than the last guy.

Mardy Bum

Jonny7 wrote: »

International opinion of Obama is markedly higher than Bush, domestically it is also higher.

In 2006/2007 I walked into a large bookshop, they had an entire section dedicated to Bush, Cheney, the Neocons, the war on terror, Iraq - virtually all critical.

Whatever people say about Obama - Bush was deeply unpopular, especially internationally.

So yes, relatively speaking, he's much better than the last guy.

The reason he is popular is because he exudes a cult of personality and waffles at length about HOPE and CHANGE and other bull****. He has done some good things in the states, expanding health caring being one but his negative now outweigh his positives. The drone war is not documented as much as either war was with Bush. The administration then label anyone murdered as a terrorist when they have no way of knowing other than the fact it was a man between 20 and 60.

Jonny7

Bush was gaffe-prone, there are a multitude of quote books on just this alone. He was a bad statesman, came across as crass, stupid (although many on the inside said he was actually quite intelligent)

He had environmentalists up in arms, he had free speech advocates going crazy, he made decisions based on god - e.g. cutting stem-cell research. He probably had more effigies of himself burnt than any other human alive. He was the only president in history not publicly welcome in Ireland. Stayed on holiday during Katrina. Was always giving the rich tax cuts.. he completely abandoned Afghanistan while he went on his foray into Iraq.. which was for exaggerated and false reasons.. he started the rendition programs, and torture programs, he started PRISM and warrantless eavesdropping. Whether he meant to or not, he kept benefiting the companies of those close to him or in his "war" cabinet. He developed poor footing with many countries, almost reigniting shadows of the Cold War over missile bases in Eastern European countries. He single handedly went from an almost 90% approval rating down to among the lowest ever recorded for a US president, and that's just off the top of my head.

He wasn't a good president and was unpopular, especially internationally.

Hard to label Obama a "global menace".

esteve

Jonny7 wrote: »

I am aware of facilities closing, which ones opened? .

Guantanamo hasn't fully closed, and there are still a huge amount of innocent people there with literally, nowhere to go. What other facilities have closed that you referred to?

Opened perhaps was not the correct word, maybe modified or expanded is better, but that is really just semantics and takes away from whats important. An example though would be, in Mogadishu’s Aden Adde International Airport, where the CIA only recently opened a large walled compound from which night raids are undertaken to grab any 'suspects' that will then be questioned using the CIAs elaborate techniques to gain information. The legality of just snatching somebody from their home, without any evidence, and the repercusions are so obvious. The US has acknowledged the existence of this base, they say they dont actually run it though, but have officialy said they pay Somalian agents to run it, and train them also, and give them their mandate of operation, but they dont actually run the base...yawn!

Jonny7 wrote: »

I think Obama should stop the drone war entirely. Let the fledgling Afghan army and Pakistan military deal with the Pashtun militia's. .

Agree he should end the drone war entirely, amongst other things.

Jonny7 wrote: »

In what way is it beyond surveillance, can you provide examples? .

Standard police or federal surveillance is usually not illegal, PRISM may very well be totally illegal. Hence why their is such an uproar about this globally, from European Governments to beyond.

Jonny7 wrote: »

International opinion of Obama is markedly higher than Bush, domestically it is also higher.

In 2006/2007 I walked into a large bookshop, they had an entire section dedicated to Bush, Cheney, the Neocons, the war on terror, Iraq - virtually all critical.

Whatever people say about Obama - Bush was deeply unpopular, especially internationally.

So yes, relatively speaking, he's much better than the last guy.

Just because international and domestic opinion of him is better than Bush, this does not one bit prove he is doing a better job, it just means opinion is higher of him. Facts are usually better than opinion. Additionally, Democractic Presidents usually fair better internationally.

Also, he is a charismatic guy, speaks well, is likeable, and unfortunately, some people are wooed with his rhetoric and forget about again the most important thing, facts. Bush and Cheney were so easy to vilify, they were like some cartoon villians, you couldnt actually make it up. Obama has a better opinion rating than them, I think that is pretty much standard, it was almost impossible not to happen.

esteve

Jonny7 wrote: »

He had environmentalists up in arms.

Environmentalists are still up in arms. Now that the Artic sea ice will no longer exist during the summer months from 2020 at the latest, he is opening this up for drilling. This is just the tip of the ice berg on this issue (excuse the pun).

esteve

Jonny7 wrote: »

he started the rendition programs

No, he continued the rendition programme.

Jonny7

esteve wrote: »

Guantanamo hasn't fully closed, and there are still a huge amount of innocent people there with literally, nowhere to go. What other facilities have closed that you referred to?

It was suspected at one stage that over 80 of these sites existed, from Eastern Europe to North Africa, basically all over the world, with quite a few in Afghanistan and Iraq.

An order was signed in 2009 or so to restrict interrogation techniques (get rid of water-boarding torture and so on) and to dismantle and get rid of these sites.

There's been some incidents with Somali's by more than a few nations, but it's mainly to do with piracy. The Mogadishu airport site is not a confirmed CIA black site, only suspected.

Obama is the one trying to get gitmo closed, why is the House and Congress impeding it? it's a huge tangled mess of legality.

Also, he is a charismatic guy, speaks well, is likeable, and unfortunately, some people are wooed with his rhetoric and forget about again the most important thing, facts. Bush and Cheney were so easy to vilify, they were like some cartoon villians, you couldnt actually make it up. Obama has a better opinion rating than them, I think that is pretty much standard, it was almost impossible not to happen.

I don't find him that much of a personality, Reagan and Clinton had miles more charisma.

The problem is, that apart from the drone war and more recently, PRISM.. most normal people generally agree with his stance on issues. Whether it's gay marriage, climate change, education, religion and state, the economy, science, international relations, the Arab spring, and so on

Of course he's open for criticism, but "global menace"? bit over the top.

esteve

Jonny7 wrote: »

There's been some incidents with Somali's by more than a few nations, but it's mainly to do with piracy. The Mogadishu airport site is not a confirmed CIA black site, only suspected. .

The situation in Somalia has nothing to do with piracy, but is in relation to operations against members of Al Shabab, an Islamic militant group with close ties to Al Qaeda.

The CIA have a base at Mogadishu Airport, and also in the basement of Somalia’s National Security Agency (NSA) headquarters, where people are rendered and held.

Not being able to define a CIA base as a black site is a bit of a catch 22, as the CIA will never disclose any of their black sites publicly, or any of their sites as being a black site. Therfore we have to work with what we know, and that is that there are two CIA bases in Somalia where people are snatched and held, and the techniques used there to get information is not disclosed, although from witness statements, people are tortured, and anti-US sentiment in the area is growing because of this. Amazingly the US is better at creating anti-US sentiment than Al Qaeda themselves.

Jonny7 wrote: »

Obama is the one trying to get gitmo closed, why is the House and Congress impeding it? it's a huge tangled mess of legality.

Good question, I dont know why the House and Congress are blocking it, Obama had no problema getting the Monsanto Protection Act passed though.

Jonny7 wrote: »

I don't find him that much of a personality, Reagan and Clinton had miles more charisma.

You can put Obama in this category, as these types of politicans just appeal to people who literally have no idea. They are poster boys who in reality are only puppets in the larger scale of things.

Jonny7 wrote: »

The problem is, that apart from the drone war and more recently, PRISM.. most normal people generally agree with his stance on issues. Whether it's gay marriage, climate change, education, religion and state, the economy, science, international relations, the Arab spring, and so on .

Agree on some of the above, although on climate change he is pretty much as bad as Bush, international relations not much better either.

Jonny7 wrote: »

Of course he's open for criticism, but "global menace"? bit over the top.

Maybe ever so slightly over the top, and innacurate, as its not Obama personally, but just the institutional structures under which he presides.

Jonny7

esteve wrote: »

The situation in Somalia has nothing to do with piracy, but is in relation to operations against members of Al Shabab, an Islamic militant group with close ties to Al Qaeda.

The CIA have a base at Mogadishu Airport, and also in the basement of Somalia’s National Security Agency (NSA) headquarters, where people are rendered and held.

It's a suspected site. The reason why I mentioned piracy is because they did "render" a guy into a US navy ship, which they admitted.

although on climate change he is pretty much as bad as Bush,

??
they have diametrically opposing stances on climate change

Obama two days ago
""We Don't Have Time for a Meeting of the Flat-Earth Society"
http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2013/06/obama-climate-speech-georgetown

Bush overview
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/jan/16/greenpolitics-georgebush

international relations not much better either.

Under Bush, France and Germany directly opposed the US, he was nearly always at odds with the UN from 2003 onwards, much of the public in Europe (largely due to the Iraq war) was so opposed to him that he couldn't make public visits. He didn't do anything with Africa except sanctions in Darfur. Russia, like I said before, he antagonised with the missile umbrella (since scrapped). As I remember there were only three countries he positively polled in after the Iraq war (Philippines, Nigeria and Poland I think). Asia was one of the few places that weren't in contention, and even then it wasn't anything ground-breaking.

He is recognised as one of the worst US presidents - and his legacy includes how much he damaged international relations with many countries. Obama is credited with rebuilding many of these relationships - although, to be honest, any leader could.

esteve

Jonny7 wrote: »

It's a suspected site. .

It is a CIA site where people are rendered and there are various statements from people taken there who were tortured. The Word 'black' in discribing the site is irrelevant, and isn't actually important, what happens in that site is what is importat. So describing it as a suspected black site has little relevance and is just used as diversión from the reality of what is happening there.

Jonny7 wrote: »

??
they have diametrically opposing stances on climate change .

So Obama makes a speech, and therefore he will do everything he says in his speech...such blind devotion to his rhetoric is puzzling. They both opened up Alaska for exploitation and Obama has opened up the newly unfrozen Artic Circle for Oil Drilling, which i don't think is a very good stance on climate change. The fact that they may disagree wih the origins of climate change is one thing, but what is more important is what they are doing about it, what is their govermental policy on this issue, and unfortunately, little has changed.

I guess the main difference would be Bush catered more to the creationist, extremely conservative factions on this issue than Obama does, only because he had to and Obama doesn't have to.

Jonny7 wrote: »

Under Bush, France and Germany directly opposed the US, he was nearly always at odds with the UN from 2003 onwards, much of the public in Europe (largely due to the Iraq war) was so opposed to him that he couldn't make public visits. He didn't do anything with Africa except sanctions in Darfur. Russia, like I said before, he antagonised with the missile umbrella (since scrapped). As I remember there were only three countries he positively polled in after the Iraq war (Philippines, Nigeria and Poland I think). Asia was one of the few places that weren't in contention, and even then it wasn't anything ground-breaking..

Again, I agree with some of the above but not all. Curretly relations aren't so smooth with Russia, due to their involvement with Snowden, their stance on Iran and also Syria.

Also the PRISM affair does not bode well with other Governments, particularly in Europe.

Obama hasn't invaded a country..yet, and i hope he doesn't! He still has 3 years left and only then can we truly make a fair comparison between the two.

But you said it yourself, Bush was one of the worst US presidents ever, the fact that Obama fairs better says tittle to me of him doing a good job, In fact, he could be doing a bad job and still be more popular than Bush.

ThreeBlindMice

Jonny7 wrote: »

Obama has been trying to close Guantanamo - there's been obstructionism, legal complications and so on. Easy to open, hard to close it would seem.

LOL, meanwhile FEMA concentration camps or more politely put "re educational" settlement camps have been opening up left right and center across the country. Americans are so naive about this type of stuff and BTW its no longer a conspiracy theory. Whistle blowers have been coming forward with documented evidence that these places are more than just crisis shelters.

Jonny7

esteve wrote: »

It is a CIA site where people are rendered and there are various statements from people taken there who were tortured. The Word 'black' in discribing the site is irrelevant, and isn't actually important, what happens in that site is what is importat. So describing it as a suspected black site has little relevance and is just used as diversión from the reality of what is happening there.

It's not fact, it's a suspected rendition site, along with the compound under the Palace and another potential site under the Somali internal security building. If the CIA is directly renditioning suspects there, then I stand corrected - and it's a practice that should be completely and utterly stamped out as promised.

But you said it yourself, Bush was one of the worst US presidents ever, the fact that Obama fairs better says tittle to me of him doing a good job, In fact, he could be doing a bad job and still be more popular than Bush.

I don't see much debate on the issue. He inherited Iraq, Afghanistan, the war on terror, a financial crisis, a very hostile Middle East - he got one hell of a bad lot - and he's been doing a decent job. There's still plenty he can improve on, but "global menace", I don't think so.

Jonny7

ThreeBlindMice wrote: »

LOL, meanwhile FEMA concentration camps or more politely put "re educational" settlement camps have been opening up left right and center across the country. Americans are so naive about this type of stuff and BTW its no longer a conspiracy theory. Whistle blowers have been coming forward with documented evidence that these places are more than just crisis shelters.

Nope, they are loony conspiracy theories.

esteve

Jonny7 wrote: »

It's not fact, it's a suspected rendition site, along with the compound under the Palace and another potential site under the Somali internal security building. If the CIA is directly renditioning suspects there, then I stand corrected - and it's a practice that should be completely and utterly stamped out as promised. .

Okay okay, let me appease you so. There are two known CIA sites in Somalia where people have been 'reportedly' rendered and 'tortured'. To the people living there, Somalians, this is not even debatable, its completely known. To you or I, i guess it is less clear for obvious reasons.

Jonny7 wrote: »

I don't see much debate on the issue. He inherited Iraq, Afghanistan, the war on terror, a financial crisis, a very hostile Middle East - he got one hell of a bad lot - and he's been doing a decent job. There's still plenty he can improve on, but "global menace", I don't think so.

Again, I don't particularly disagree with you, but the plan to leave Iraq was not created by him, it was already on the table when he came into office, although he has had to deal with its legacy. However, I dont think people really associate him with Iraq. Afghanistan, yeah, but again, he probably would have invaded if he had been in power after 9/11, they had to get the bad guy, Bin Laden. Financial crisis, was long in the making before Bush and its roots go well back to the 80s.

I think its is innacurate to say Obama is a global menace as he is simpley bound by the institutional structures already in place, and has to protect the already established business interests. To me, his perfomance is meh..simply business as usual. But to give him credit, he has not invaded a country.

ThreeBlindMice

Jonny7 wrote: »

Nope, they are loony conspiracy theories.

Just like those other loony conspiracy theories concerning NSA spying.

I would not trust the US Government one bit under Obama.

I use to have some tiny credibility for George Bush and slightly more for his predecessor Bill Clinton but as for Obama with the amount of lying, hypocrisy and back tracking that has been continually going on my estimation on him is now right down to a big fat ZERO.

Here is some interesting specifications on FEMA camps or should I correctly say militarized internment camps.

"If it looks like a duck and walks etc. like a duck, it is a duck"

http://static.infowars.com/2011/12/i/general/kbr-doc.pdf

Jonny7

ThreeBlindMice wrote: »

Just like those other loony conspiracy theories concerning NSA spying.

The NSA leak and the whistle-blowers and the insiders who never corroborate any of the loony conspiracy theories.

Just a spying program we pretty much knew about.

Here is some interesting specifications on FEMA camps or should I correctly say militarized internment camps.

Let's just call them what they actually are - normal US prisons clearly marked on google maps or camps for disaster-hit areas like we have in every country.

But hey, Alex Jones is a rich man from all this.

ThreeBlindMice

Jonny7 wrote: »

Let's just call them what they actually are - normal US prisons clearly marked on google maps or camps for disaster-hit areas like we have in every country.

But hey, Alex Jones is a rich man from all this.

The USA has the highest incarceration rate in the world with up to 1 in 100 currently behind bars in private prisons (Majority black ie US Slave labor rebadged ) Hasn't the US not enough prisons without thousands more of these unoccupied internment camps dotted through the whole country?

And what is the story of the inward facing barbed wire? Why would the authorities want inward curved facing barbed wire on the fencing of a disaster camp, reminds me of these lyrics. "You can check out any time you like, But you can never leave!'

Kevster

I happened to live in the USA, recently, and the biggest feeling that I got from being there was 'polarisation' - Everything and everyone there is polarised and it's 'us against them'. So, it does not surprise me in the slightest to see that you guys - who obviously have an interest in US policies and politics - are equally polarised.

Can you please look at some facts here: People talk about lies, well, look no further than the previous president's campaign where they went to war in countries based on 'mumbo jumbo' and inconsistencies in reports. The current president has been spending his few years in term licking everyone's ass and trying to repair the damage that the previous chap did.

On top of this, the current president has been doing much to improve things for American citizens too (reorganising the budgets, healthcare, creating new jobs), but repeatedly comes up against blocks because the US system is so convoluted. The previous president - whilst war-mongering - forgot his people and the country chalked up a massive debt of US$1 trillion.

One good thing did come from the last US president: he inadvertently weakened his own county and now they are no longer the power they were.

Kevin

Kevster

ThreeBlindMice wrote: »

The USA has the highest incarceration rate in the world with up to 1 in 100 currently behind bars in private prisons (Majority black ie US Slave labor rebadged ) Hasn't the US not enough prisons without thousands more of these unoccupied internment camps dotted through the whole country?

I don't believe that's true. The Russian Federation has the highest prison population, and with a population less than that of the USA it must surely have a higher rate.

Get your facts right.

Kevin

clairefontaine

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/07/us/in-secret-court-vastly-broadens-powers-of-nsa.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Honestly, somebody ought to tell the ww2 veterans they did not win the fight on fascism.

Kevster

clairefontaine wrote: »

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/07/us/in-secret-court-vastly-broadens-powers-of-nsa.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Honestly, somebody ought to tell the ww2 veterans they did not win the fight on fascism.

Two things:

1, Is this really a surprise to any of us?
2, What does it matter if you've nothing to hide?

I say: do as much surveillance as you want on me - I have nothing to hide.

clairefontaine

Kevster wrote: »

Two things:

1, Is this really a surprise to any of us?
2, What does it matter if you've nothing to hide?

I say: do as much surveillance as you want on me - I have nothing to hide.

Having nothing to hide is besides the point.

Since when can you have secret courts,parallel to the Supreme Court in a democracy? Transparency is one of the cornerstones against tyranny.

Kevster

I'm sorry - I disagree - and I think that people in the West have too much liberty and freedom nowadays. America was 'built' on this notion of freedom, and look where that got it to.

Kevin

Suryavarman

Kevster wrote: »

I don't believe that's true. The Russian Federation has the highest prison population, and with a population less than that of the USA it must surely have a higher rate.

Get your facts right.

Kevin

List of countries by incarceration rate

Kevster wrote: »

Two things:

1, Is this really a surprise to any of us?
2, What does it matter if you've nothing to hide?

I say: do as much surveillance as you want on me - I have nothing to hide.

So you don't mind if somebody puts surveillance cameras throughout your house?

Kevster wrote: »

I'm sorry - I disagree - and I think that people in the West have too much liberty and freedom nowadays. America was 'built' on this notion of freedom, and look where that got it to.

Kevin

If you don't like the small level of freedom available in America then move to somewhere like China then.

Kevster

Citing Wikipedia! - clever man...

Actually, I wouldn't care if they had cameras in my house. It'd catch any burglar trying to steal my stuff.

I didn't stay in America - I left for many reasons, one being it's a messed up nation. Plus - and actually - I visited 6 of the largest cities in China and liked the experience. Yes, there were times when you felt police officers / secret service watching you, but at least that keeps you in check.