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New Planning Inquiry on six councils to be external
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16-06-2013 1:11am#1
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antoobrien wrote: »Yeah listen to An Taisce, they're not at all biased against the areas concerned, esepcially seeing how they rigged rankings to ensure that Galway Co would come out as one of the worst offenders in the "one off" category by completely ignoring the fact that Galway is 7 times bigger than Co Dublin.
Rigged. Emotive much? You feel that counties should have had a weighting according to size? There is an inherent waighting as the figure taken was "Percentage of One-Off Houses Permitted as a Percentage of all Residential Planning Permissions 2001 – 2011.3" URL="http://www.antaisce.ie/Portals/0/Reports/20120419StateoftheNation_PlanningSystem.pdf"]source[/URLIf Galway had given out as many one off PPs as Dublin City Council did per sq km they would have had a one off rate 8.5 times higher than it actually was. And Mayo, the only "worse" county than Galway according to our "non biased watchdogs" had a proportional rate that was 12 times lower than Dublin city for one offs.
But they gave out more as a percentage of total applications. Otherwise a population stagnant but large county would appear to be doing "well".But somehow Dublin's ranking for this criterium was 32nd worst (or 2nd best) of 33 LAs. How the f**k do they manage that?
Do you think Dublin has a greater one-off housing problem compared to Galway County? Are you serious?
Edit: Here is figure 13 from the report.
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antoobrien wrote: »Thanks for proving my point, the quote above shows that they totally ignored the relative sizes
You really don't want to get into relative sizes, given the numbers of McMansions approved by Galway County.
Planning Permissions Granted for New Houses and Apartments by Type of Dwelling, Local Authority, statistical indicator and Quarter (One-OFF Houses)
Data source CSO.ie Raw data attached.0 -
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Incidentally - the methodology used by An Taisce (number of one offs granted compare to total applications) is not dissimilar to that used by the CSO in this report on the 2011 census. They use one-offs as a percentage of total households (no mention of sq kms)
Map 7 on page 34 is telling.
Galway has over 45% of its one-off housing as a share of all households built since 2006.
In fact by this measure Galway is by far the worst county in Ireland in one-off housing performance.Around 63 per cent of households in County Galway were oneoff houses, the highest in the country.
And yet you have the nerve to claim that Dublin is worse and that AT "rigged" the results. I suppose CSO rigged the Census too.0 -
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antoobrien wrote: »That is an outright lie.
Galway Count's housing stock as of 2011 census was 77,522 (another 33,655 in the city).
In the period Q2 2006- Q1 2011 (covering the census) Galway CO Council gave PP for 5,435 one off developments.
That's a long way south of 45%.
A lie you say? Best inform the CSO, it is their report.
Once again you fundamentally misunderstand the data and the issue.
The map is a map of One-off housing as a share of all households built since 2006 by county. It is on page 34 of the linked CSO report.
So, to spell it out for you of all houses built since 2006-2011 Galway Co Co granted permission for 63% of those to be one-offs.
Retract your "lie" allegation please.That's not a map of one offs 2006-2011, that's a map of one offs in the state.
Errm. The map is titled "One-off housing as a share of all households built since 2006 by county" So, it guess it is a a map of one offs 2006-2011. Awkward.What I see in that map - which will be borne out if you look at the census aggregate rural/town population figures is that those that have 40% or higher one offs will be 50% rural or higher. Then there will be the fact that the towns and villages are not estates & apartments but clusters of one off houses, which further skews those figures.
I think the fact that you cannot read the title of the map in the CSO report skews the figures in your head frankly.
I'd say Galway granting one-offs PP in huge numbers probably contributed significantly - are you saying they didn't?For the first time in the history of Co Galway, roughly half the population of the county is urban based, however the fact that towns like Tuam, Loughrea & Ballinsaloe etc probably still do not have a majority of people living in multiple developments makes them contribute to the one off trend in the county.Incidentally the numberse are available on the cso website, but Galway isn't the worst over the period in question, Cork Co. is with over 1600 more one offs. But then given the fact that CO Corj & Cop Galway between them cover 19% of the land in the state and are overwhelming rural in nature I'd expect a large number of one offs, but the AT ignores this as well.
Land area has nothing to do with it. Neither CSO nor DoE use land area as a factor. In fact it is a massive red herring as I have already demonstrated. You just want to dilute the figures by land area so they do not look so shameful.
If I divide the PPs granted by population of the relative counties you would be up in arms, but you want to do the same for land area. Not one Govt agency uses this approach.It's not nerve when it's true.
It is a gross allegation, and potentially actionable. AT used perfectly acceptable statistical methods with the CSO as the source for the data.
More actual figures:Dublin city council, covering 115 sq.km between 2006 & 2011 granted 999 one offs vs Galway (6,098) granting 5,435. Are you seriously trying to tell me that if Galway was as "good" as Dublin a 5 year PP rate of 52973 houses -10 times the rate that Galway co. gave them out - would be better?
As much as you desperately try to massage Galway's figures by including land area, it simply isn't relevant. If it were, other agencies would use the same method as you, and they don't. We don't need to do that mental adjustment for size, the CSO have already reported that Galway was the worst offender for the period 2006-2011. Go for a drive, it is casually visible isn't it.
To further drive the point home, as you don't seem to grasp it. Here are figures for State one-offs vs Dublin and Galway's contribution to the total number of one-offs.
Dublin does not even register on the graph being less than 1% of total permissions.Every time you post here you are further proving my point.
Actually it is making you look more foolish by your inability to actually read and understand the data being presented to you.0 -
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You statistic is completely irrelevant.
Anybody who wants to see if can see the relevance Victor: DCC has a chronic lack of space and if they have allowed 2500 new builds it's a sign of serious lack of planning.
But then the current fashion is not to give out about developing in large towns, but to decry building houses in the countryside as "unsustainable". This is a fashion that will turn again, just as the fashion of 50 years after knocking the tenements we are saying that everyone should be living in big developments nice and close together again.How many house did Dublin city allow on rural roads, where there were no existing services?
We could ask the same question of SDCC, Fingal & DLR, but don't I think they'd give this answer: none that the householder doesn't have to pay to provide said services.
What are the charges levied by these councils for connections anyways, I'll bet it doesn't run into the tens of thousands like it does down the country,Because there is infill housing. A neighbour has a large back garden and applied for planning permission for a house on the site of the current rear garage. There is a house on one side and a commercial premises on the other. There is no way to improve the density of that site other than to apply for planning permission for one house. Likewise, down the street there was a corner mews site. And that would be typical in lots of Dublin city, where infill housing is improving densities and using existing services - there are no rural roads that can be filled with ribbon housing with all its negative consequences.
There's a serious problem with infill housing: it's not sustainable. The phrase sustainable is very subjective, my view on it that it includes the ability to provide resources, which DCC make a mockery of their water supply to the point that they want to destroy bogland to provide an artificial lake and the hypocrites in AT agree with it (but a road no, that's evil and can't be allowed), as well as the ability to grow ones own food - the facilities for which are chronically short in DCC (allotments, don't make me laugh).A bit like ice cream sales and shark attacks increase in summer, therefore ice cream causes shark attacks.
I'm not claiming causality, so Post hoc, ergo propter hoc doesn't apply. I'm stating that the fact DCC has a rate of one off that is 10 times higher than Co Galway and yet by some bizarre notion we should ignore the space & water constraints that DCC has and we should deem this very high rate good. By that logic Galway Co Co can remove the 15km commuter belt restriction then because we aren't building enough one offs to be as "good" as Dublin.It sounds like an interesting connection but is completely irrelevant, like you posts.
The fact that DCC have a rate of "one offs" that is 10 times the rate of Galway Co despite a serious resource problem is irrelevant? That's a nice big pile of straw, my neighbours still need fodder & bedding, when can you ship it?How exactly are we defining these "one off pp" for Dublin City?
If you'd bothered checking the link you'd see that I am referring to PP requests for a new dwelling. I'm not sure what to make of the question though, it seems to imply that there should be some kind of bias in the figures.I presume 2.5k one off bungalows weren't built in Dublin city centre, were they?
DCC covers the area from the (former) N32 down to somewhere about the R112 and not quite as far west and the M50 (I remember the outcry from Fingal when DCC wanted to take the area to the M50 to make the boundaries clearer, it was funny). So any single new development in Clontarf will count the same as one in Corofin.
Btw I'd be very surprised of there was a bungalow built in Galway in the past 10 years. The more insulting description of McMansion (usually muttered by someone begrudging the owner) would be more appropriate to describe the houses that have been built.Yeah. About that figure. Turns out it is for Q1 2001 through Q4 2012, take a look at the spreadsheet I posted with figures for the period of 11 years. 2567 one-off in Dublin. That's 233 a YEAR.
Galway County on the other hand managed to grant permission for 16083 in the same period, or 1462 one off houses a year. Population of Galway County in 2006 was 231,670 - so one brand new planning permission for a one-off house for one in fourteen of the population! Practically one in five families in Galway County got PP for a one-off house over an eleven year period.
Jesus Christ.
Emotive ideoligical rubbish beating actual knowledge and understanding of the facts on the ground. A day ending in y on boards.
Galway Co is 53 time bigger than Dublin City, so it's not like a higher rate would be unusual in any way However if we were to use Dublins rate then Galway would be giving out 233*53=12,349 PPs every year. That's about 75% of what Galway gave permission for in the period in question, and you're giving about Galway's rate of one offs:rolleyes: You should be thankful that we are far more restrictive than DCC or we'd have given PP for nearly everyone living in the county rural areas a house for themselves.0 -
antoobrien wrote: »Anybody who wants to see if can see the relevance Victor: DCC has a chronic lack of space and if they have allowed 2500 new builds it's a sign of serious lack of planning.
Anto, you seem to be under the impression that we are defending Dublin. By no means, if you look at my OP you will see my criticism of Dublin. However this is far more to do with overblown high-rise than the tiny amount of one-offs.
Tell me how insisting on building every new house half a mile from your neighbour is sustainable?But then the current fashion is not to give out about developing in large towns, but to decry building houses in the countryside as "unsustainable".This is a fashion that will turn again, just as the fashion of 50 years after knocking the tenements we are saying that everyone should be living in big developments nice and close together again.
Now you cannot tell the difference between a slum and an apartment? Seriously?We could ask the same question of SDCC, Fingal & DLR, but don't I think they'd give this answer: none that the householder doesn't have to pay to provide said services.
What are the charges levied by these councils for connections anyways, I'll bet it doesn't run into the tens of thousands like it does down the country,
Feel free to research that, and get back to us. You seem content for other people to provide the data, and then ignore it.
Wut? Building a house on land between houses is not sustainable?? Wut? Do explain.There's a serious problem with infill housing: it's not sustainable.The phrase sustainable is very subjective, my view on it that it includes the ability to provide resources, which DCC make a mockery of their water supply to the point that they want to destroy bogland to provide an artificial lake and the hypocrites in AT agree with it (but a road no, that's evil and can't be allowed), as well as the ability to grow ones own food - the facilities for which are chronically short in DCC (allotments, don't make me laugh).
Ermmm....right. Lakes, evil roads and farms on O'Connell Street. OK.
By any measure except your own makey-up one, you are wrong.I'm not claiming causality, so Post hoc, ergo propter hoc doesn't apply. I'm stating that the fact DCC has a rate of one off that is 10 times higher than Co Galway
1. 233 a year is much less than 1462 a year last time I looked.
2. Galway's PP for one in 16 of the population vs Dublin's PP for one in 205 of the population.
3. Galway CoCo providing an average of 9% of the total one-offs in the State despite having only 4% of the population vs Dublin's 1-2% and 39% of the population.
4. As you are so reliant on land area and size, lets compare a rural county with a similar population density 34 per km2 vs 33 per km2. Galway vs Clare.
Percentage of one - off houses (%) by Province County or City and Census Year
2011 All households
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Clare 69.10%
Galway County 83.40%
CSO Figures
and
Comparatively speaking, compared to the rest of the country, yes. Compared to other countries it probably isn't good.and yet by some bizarre notion we should ignore the space & water constraints that DCC has and we should deem this very high rate good.By that logic Galway Co Co can remove the 15km commuter belt restriction then because we aren't building enough one offs to be as "good" as Dublin.
When you show some logic, we can talk about logic - there is no logical connection between your statements.
It is only a 'fact' in your head. I have spent considerable time showing you the facts, even drawn you some pictures, but seem unable to grasp them, nor admit to your horrendous cockup in being unable to read figures as 2006-2011 and not from the bigging of time.The fact that DCC have a rate of "one offs" that is 10 times the rate of Galway Co despite a serious resource problem is irrelevant?
In fact, your inability to admit that AT used methodologies that are comparable to both the CSO and DoE and that they did in fact NOT "rig" results as you allege means that your 'facts' are only facts of your own construction. If they are not then please post a state agency that supports your measurements.
In the meantime I still await retraction of the terrible slur you made against An Taisce.If you'd bothered checking the link you'd see that I am referring to PP requests for a new dwelling. I'm not sure what to make of the question though, it seems to imply that there should be some kind of bias in the figures.
More of your imaginary bias is it?DCC covers the area from the (former) N32 down to somewhere about the R112 and not quite as far west and the M50 (I remember the outcry from Fingal when DCC wanted to take the area to the M50 to make the boundaries clearer, it was funny). So any single new development in Clontarf will count the same as one in Corofin.
What's your point exactly? That Dublin is being unfairly counted with regard to OOH?Btw I'd be very surprised of there was a bungalow built in Galway in the past 10 years. The more insulting description of McMansion (usually muttered by someone begrudging the owner) would be more appropriate to describe the houses that have been built.
Certainly in Galway Co Co, and I posted figures to show the monstrous floor areas granted by Galway. You support this I take it?Emotive ideoligical rubbish beating actual knowledge and understanding of the facts on the ground. A day ending in y on boards.
But you haven't posted anything but "Emotive ideoligical rubbish" ignoring all the maps, charts and statistics presented to you with links and sources!
You cannot even admit that you read the maps wrong!Galway Co is 53 time bigger than Dublin City, so it's not like a higher rate would be unusual in any way However if we were to use Dublins rate then Galway would be giving out 233*53=12,349 PPs every year. That's about 75% of what Galway gave permission for in the period in question, and you're giving about Galway's rate of one offs:rolleyes:
So even by your own bizarre calculation method Galway gave out 4 planning permissions for OOHs for every 3 in Dublin? And you still are defending Galway? Give me a break, this is sheer nonsense.You should be thankful that we are far more restrictive than DCC or we'd have given PP for nearly everyone living in the county rural areas a house for themselves.
If you call 'restrictive' giving PP for one in five families on an eleven year period I despair, I really do. How many more would have been handed out like Smarties had AT not brought objections?
You frankly appear to be living in a bubble where the truth of the impact of OOH in rural Ireland cannot penetrate. I feel that I could show you all the data in the world and you would still be frothing at the mouth about AT having "rigged" it.0 -
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