Ireland West Airport Knock

nuac

Knock Aikrport is vitally important to the true West of Ireland.

Two recent developments are causes for concern


1. Liam Scollan resignation

He was a great CEO. What is the full story here? How will he be replaced.?

2. Shannon competition

Shannon is now free from DAA control, and can pitch aggressively for business. Will Shannon eat Knock's lunch? What can Knock do about that?

There is a steering group at work. I've read various report dates - end of June , or September.

Have they invited submissions from anyone. ?

As far as I remember the Airport company hold the airport in trust for the people of Connacht

We had church gate collections in the early dates.

Larger funding may now be required.

There are EU restrictions on state aid - but are we sure Knock is getting at least as much as Shannon. ?

I appreciate Enda is busy these days, but this must be a priority

There was quite a complicated deal and shuffling of assets in the course of cutting Shannon free of DAA. Any hidden subsidies to Shannon we should know about?

finisklin

Liam Scollan is executive chairman, not CEO. The current CEO is Joe Gilmore. I am only guessing but Liam was on his way out over the last few years, he has been in situe for a considerable period, nearly ten years!

There was a feasibility study a couple of years ago (separate to the current study by the steering committee) regarding development of an enterprise park. That was mothballed due to the recession.

The problem is that both airports marketplace for passengers are in the same catchment area. Mayo is on the periphery of this area.

IWAK have threatened legal action (in Europe) over subsidies to Shannon previous, from here.

Note that the €10 departure tax ensures that IWAK looks good financially an that Shannon doesn't charge this for departing passengers. In effect, IWAK us being subsidied indirectly.

The changes to the retail part etc look well and are more contemporary and in keeping with other airports.

nuac

finisklin wrote: »

Liam Scollan is executive chairman, not CEO. The current CEO is Joe Gilmore. I am only guessing but Liam was on his way out over the last few years, he has been in situe for a considerable period, nearly ten years!

There was a feasibility study a couple of years ago (separate to the current study by the steering committee) regarding development of an enterprise park. That was mothballed due to the recession.

The problem is that both airports marketplace for passengers are in the same catchment area. Mayo is on the periphery of this area.

IWAK have threatened legal action (in Europe) over subsidies to Shannon previous, from here.

Note that the €10 departure tax ensures that IWAK looks good financially an that Shannon doesn't charge this for departing passengers. In effect, IWAK us being subsidied indirectly.

The changes to the retail part etc look well and are more contemporary and in keeping with other airports.

OK, noted.

But the loss of an executive chairman is a serious matter for any company.

In view of the tussle between Knock and a liberated Shannon this is a time for all hands on deck.

signostic

Scollan caught in political crossfire according to the Connaught Telegraph

http://www.con-telegraph.ie/news/latest-news/3760-scollan-caught-in-political-crossfire-sources-reveal-?format=pdf

twg73

Hi, I don't think Shannon is much competition to knock. I think Dublin is more competition than Shannon. Ryanair had flights to spain 400 euros cheaper for a family out of Dublin than Knock so we booked from Dublin.

I use knock a good bit, its great for getting to London and other UK airports. Can't see Shannon being a threat.

flazio

Shannon has it's own battles to fight now that there's a full motorway going to Dublin on it's doorstep, two even once the M18 joins up with the M6. Knock is taking up some of the slack of Galway airport. My mother and aunts flew to London and back recently from Knock and I had to drop them off and pick them up to bring them home to Ballinasloe. Very impressed with the improvements to the N17 after Tuam. This will help pick up more former Galway passengers.

dec25532

flazio wrote: »

Shannon has it's own battles to fight now that there's a full motorway going to Dublin on it's doorstep, two even once the M18 joins up with the M6. Knock is taking up some of the slack of Galway airport. My mother and aunts flew to London and back recently from Knock and I had to drop them off and pick them up to bring them home to Ballinasloe. Very impressed with the improvements to the N17 after Tuam. This will help pick up more former Galway passengers.

Agree, Knock is so handy and much cheaper than dublin contrary to a previous poster. The damn €10 charge per person is downright annoying and should be removed. Surely the development excuse has outlived its reason by now. Get rid.

flazio

dec25532 wrote: »

Agree, Knock is so handy and much cheaper than dublin contrary to a previous poster. The damn €10 charge per person is downright annoying and should be removed. Surely the development excuse has outlived its reason by now. Get rid.

They now need to pay for that Monsignor Horan statue. :rolleyes:

nuac

dec25532 wrote: »

Agree, Knock is so handy and much cheaper than dublin contrary to a previous poster. The damn €10 charge per person is downright annoying and should be removed. Surely the development excuse has outlived its reason by now. Get rid.

Would happily pay that for the convenience of not having to go thru Dublin or Shannon.

The bigger airports can probably get more than Knock can from the airlines

I do hope Knock survives and grows.

Dudda

I'd like Knock to survive and even grow but the development charge annoys me. Not the cost of it but more the way it's collected. I constantly forget about it. Why isn't it incorporated into the Airport Charges you pay when purchasing a ticket?


In a related topic I think the public transport to and from the airport leaves a lot to be desired. I'm aware it's more rural and harder to service but I'd love to see a survey comparing the amount that use public transport going to and from Dublin Airport compared to Knock. I'd say it's frightening.

finisklin

dec25532 wrote: »

The damn €10 charge per person is downright annoying and should be removed. Surely the development excuse has outlived its reason by now. Get rid.

The reason that Knock's financial performance is positive is that when you compare it with other airports Knock receives less subsidies. Part of the reason for this is the ten euro fee. If passengers weren't paying the €10 fee then the potential subsidy (via the taxpayer) would be higher and also weaken the airport's position agin Shannon.

nuac

finisklin wrote: »

The reason that Knock's financial performance is positive is that when you compare it with other airports Knock receives less subsidies. Part of the reason for this is the ten euro fee. If passengers weren't paying the €10 fee then the potential subsidy (via the taxpayer) would be higher and also weaken the airport's position agin Shannon.

I thought "state aid" to all airports has stopped under EU directives or regs?

The detail of allocation of resources, assets and liabilities when hiving out Shannon from the DAA etc would be interesting.

Dublin airport announced recently that they financed T2 from their own resouces. I wonder. Flew out of Dublin in May. Check in at T1, long way to T2 for plane. Operational reason or some Shannon stopover 2013 style?

alan4cult

Dudda wrote: »

I'd like Knock to survive and even grow but the development charge annoys me. Not the cost of it but more the way it's collected. I constantly forget about it. Why isn't it incorporated into the Airport Charges you pay when purchasing a ticket?


In a related topic I think the public transport to and from the airport leaves a lot to be desired. I'm aware it's more rural and harder to service but I'd love to see a survey comparing the amount that use public transport going to and from Dublin Airport compared to Knock. I'd say it's frightening.

If it were incorporated into the ticket price do you think the airlines would pass it on to Knock? At first they would, then it would slip to €9.50, €8.40, €6.70, the passenger would still pay €10 but Knock would only get some of it and some airline would get the rest.

oscarBravo

Dudda wrote: »

Why isn't it incorporated into the Airport Charges you pay when purchasing a ticket?

alan4cult wrote: »

If it were incorporated into the ticket price do you think the airlines would pass it on to Knock? At first they would, then it would slip to €9.50, €8.40, €6.70, the passenger would still pay €10 but Knock would only get some of it and some airline would get the rest.

That, and the airlines are keen to make their ticket prices look as low as possible. Add the tenner to the price of the ticket, and - no matter how clearly it's itemised on the ticket as an airport charge - it's perceived as an increase in the ticket price.

Airports are competing for airlines' business. If an airline says "we're not collecting that tenner", the airport isn't exactly in a position to dig its heels in.

For me it's a question of automatically thinking "plus a tenner" when booking flights and looking at Knock as an option. Given just how much more convenient it is than any other airport for me, it just isn't ever a deal-breaker.

finisklin

Good news with the recent addition of new destinations by Ryanair to Glasgow Prestwich, Lithuania and Holland. They are also expanding services on some existing routes as well. More tourists and external access to international destinations is welcome.

In addition the study group plan to have the growth options report ready for the Taoiseach by the end of the month. Interesting that this feeds into the National Avaitation Policy which will be announced by the end of the year.

This latter chestnut is interesting.....will IWAK's business case supercede the country's overall aviation policy? Are they complementary?

Time will tell.

liam12989

how do or whats needed / how far off is a transatlantic flight from knock?

irishgeo

liam12989 wrote: »

how do or whats needed / how far off is a transatlantic flight from knock?

they dont have the physical space on the tarmac do that .

Ilovelucy

irishgeo wrote: »

they dont have the physical space on the tarmac do that .

How do they managed before then?

notharrypotter

they dont have the physical space on the tarmac do that .

Flyglobespan(?) had a service about 5 years ago.
If I am correct it came from the UK and picked up more passengers in Knock.

Are any of the major carriers are interested these days?

YouTookMyName

notharrypotter wrote: »

Flyglobespan(?) had a service about 5 years ago.
If I am correct it came from the UK and picked up more passengers in Knock.

Are any of the major carriers are interested these days?

They were using a boeing 737 and doing a stop over in iceland. I think.

Rumours the €10 being scrapped since the government dropped the tax charges?

irishgeo

Ilovelucy wrote: »

How do they managed before then?

They used a smaller aircraft, knock doesnt have the ground services or customs etc for bigger jets to land there. its not even used as a emergency divert point for planes in trouble crossing the atlantic. because its not a 24hr airport. its closes at night.

notharrypotter wrote: »

Flyglobespan(?) had a service about 5 years ago.
If I am correct it came from the UK and picked up more passengers in Knock.

Are any of the major carriers are interested these days?

i cant see it to be honest it doesnt have the numbers for a daily flight and whats the point of a weekly one?

YouTookMyName wrote: »

They were using a boeing 737 and doing a stop over in iceland. I think.

Rumours the €10 being scrapped since the government dropped the tax charges?

Lets hope so. At least you could see where it was going with the new buildings etc. Now thats all done i wonder when we will get air bridges in.:D

Neworder79

irishgeo wrote: »

They used a smaller aircraft, knock doesnt have the ground services or customs etc for bigger jets to land there. its not even used as a emergency divert point for planes in trouble crossing the atlantic. because its not a 24hr airport. its closes at night.

Not true, a 738 was used on Boston route but 757-2 was used on JFK for the 6 month season. NOC had a 767 charter from Washington this summer and has handled Tristar and 747 wide-body charters in the past. Handling and staff can be scaled up as needed, but they have the runway length, ILS and Fire category, the only infrastructure constraint is the number of stands. But with most of the schedule concentrated in the early afternoon the apron / terminal have ample capacity to take the odd mid/wide body throughout the day. Not much difference from 3 concurrent 738s.

notharrypotter

NOC had a 767 charter from Washington this summer

True

Not much difference from 3 concurrent 738s.

Not true

http://www.iaa.ie/safe_reg/iaip/Frame1.htm
AIP Ireland EIKN 2.24-1.

Put a B767 in there and there is no room for anything else.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B767
See specifications for dimensions of B767.

Therefore you are looking a either a very early or very late operation, otherwise the normal scheduled traffic has nowhere to go while that B767 is on the ground.

finisklin

One of the urban myths that took wings when the airport was launched was that US investment was attracted to help build it and that the runway at the time was big enough to take a B52 bomber. The idea being that Knock would be a refueling point for any sorties into Eastern Europe or beyond.

Based on the above posts that is obviously not a runner?

irishgeo

notharrypotter wrote: »

True

Not true

http://www.iaa.ie/safe_reg/iaip/Frame1.htm
AIP Ireland EIKN 2.24-1.

Put a B767 in there and there is no room for anything else.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B767
See specifications for dimensions of B767.

Therefore you are looking a either a very early or very late operation, otherwise the normal scheduled traffic has nowhere to go while that B767 is on the ground.

sterling work mate. A B767 just about fits with all the other ones empty.

The B767 that flew in was the G8 press plane from america in the late evening according to the article on the airport website, shame no one took a photo of it.

oscarBravo

irishgeo wrote: »

The B767 that flew in was the G8 press plane from america in the late evening according to the article on the airport website, shame no one took a photo of it.

I saw it when it was there; it was parked on the secondary apron to the west.

Neworder79

notharrypotter wrote: »

True

Not true

Put a B767 in there and there is no room for anything else.
Therefore you are looking a either a very early or very late operation, otherwise the normal scheduled traffic has nowhere to go while that B767 is on the ground.

Which is exactly what I said, room in the schedule where the apron is empty.

Look we all know it's a tight apron with 3 narrow-body stands. However it's not true to state they technically can't handle TA services (however unlikely commercially). Globespan operated a JFK service for 6 months, with a morning 757 arrival and the Boston 738 arriving at the same time without issue. Yes wide-body would cause problems, but were such a service to launch it would most likely use a 757 as we see with EI at SNN and most thin TA routes.



Theres an image of a charter 742, Thomas Cook A320 and an Arann ATR on the apron at NOC.



Some images of the 764 charter here:

Flickr

notharrypotter

Stand markings redrawn since the B747 visit. link to aip is current layout.

Cosmo Kramer

I personally think that a transatlantic link is unnecessary and unsuitable for Knock. It is one area where the airport cannot and should not try to compete with what is already available - a decent range of destinations from Dublin and Shannon and pre-clearance on offer at both airports. Ireland has always had a strong link to the US but as time goes on it is becoming more diluted - the US is not high on the list of most recent emigrants' destinations.

I would like to see a service from Knock that allows travellers from both the US and the rest of the world to travel in and out via a major European airport with links to various destinations worldwide. At the moment if your destination is outside of Europe it is almost impossible to use Knock as a starting point to connect to where you want to go, which is a real shame and must significantly impact on the numbers of passengers using the airport.

irishgeo

Cosmo Kramer wrote: »

I personally think that a transatlantic link is unnecessary and unsuitable for Knock. It is one area where the airport cannot and should not try to compete with what is already available - a decent range of destinations from Dublin and Shannon and pre-clearance on offer at both airports. Ireland has always had a strong link to the US but as time goes on it is becoming more diluted - the US is not high on the list of most recent emigrants' destinations.

I would like to see a service from Knock that allows travellers from both the US and the rest of the world to travel in and out via a major European airport with links to various destinations worldwide. At the moment if your destination is outside of Europe it is almost impossible to use Knock as a starting point to connect to where you want to go, which is a real shame and must significantly impact on the numbers of passengers using the airport.

doesnt the fly be service from knock to manchester cover that?

Cosmo Kramer

irishgeo wrote: »

doesnt the fly be service from knock to manchester cover that?

No - the service runs less than daily for much of the year, won't run at all for part of the winter and spring, and does not link directly to a major airline schedule - although it comes up with an Etihad codeshare link, you can't book from Knock on the Etihad website. That service really is not at all sufficient for connection purposes.

Cosmo Kramer

http://www.irelandwestairport.com/utility/news_details.aspx?id=345

Looks like there is some good news coming at Knock. In addition to the announcement of continued funding to regional airports for the next ten years it is also being reported that the recommendations of the government report on the airport are likely to be implemented in full - resulting in additional funding being provided to Knock in particular to develop the facility. These announcements should hopefully allow the continued development of the airport through the next decade and beyond.

The Ballaghaderreen bypass should also further open the airport up to the midlands when it is opened in a year's time. In general, with these developments, the continued progress of the N5 Castlebar/Westport scheme behind the scenes and the sports facility development in Castlebar, it looks like the county is finally starting to get its fair share of infrastructure development relative to other parts of the country.

dec25532

So any chance they could get rid of the €10 development fee in light of what is happening? It is a major pain in the ass

Neworder79

dec25532 wrote: »

So any chance they could get rid of the €10 development fee in light of what is happening? It is a major pain in the ass

http://www.dttas.ie/aviation/publications/english/ireland-west-airport-knock-study-group-report-december-2013

A lot of spin and posturing for position from Kenny and co on this "announcement"...

Read the actual report, it puts all the airports financials out in the open. It's also full of aspiration and short on detail.

The fee is a major part of the airports funding and at current levels it could not continue to operate without it.

The government operating subventions currently make up about 1/16th of operating cost. Major growth (doubling passenger levels and aviation/ancillary income) is necessary to become fully self sustainaining.

Also remember this remains a report, saying much the same as the previous one. It pushes responsibility for funding to councils, local authorities and a vague groupe of stakeholders, reducing government responsibility for financing of the facility further. It may make sense but it's hard to see bankrupt Sligo and airfield burdened Galway CoCos rushing to fund Knock. I'd expect to see similar fee at other airports if this policy is adopted.

Until the government publish/pass final policy details, and commit to a significant level of capital investment (required to maintain current operations and facilitate necessary growth to become self sustainable) nothing has changed.

nuac

Thanks for putting up the report Neworder79.

I am disappointed.

1..John O'Mahoney is decent man, a former teacher and hard-working TD. Afaik he has no relevant business experience or knowledge of transport economics. As he is a govt TD he was unlikely to highlight anything critical of present government. There are also suggestions locally that he was given the gig to improve his chances of nomination for and election as an MEP. In fact if the chairman had to be a politician, Jim Higgins might have had more relevant knowledge and experience. Was there nobody with a track record in tourism or industry available.?

2. Funding

The continued govt support to a certain level for next ten years is useful, but I have not much confidence in other aspirations.

2.1 Local authorities are under huge financial pressure. They have a high cost base, plus looming pension costs. Sligo were already deeply in debt before their foolish attack on Lissadel. Galway has had their own losses on Galway airport. That leaves Mayo. The Mayo Town Councils with substantial tourism plant might have been willing to add to the rates burden in favour of IWAK- but sadly they are being abolished. I am not sure how much the county in general would be willing to put on the rates for IWAK

2.2 Other local funding.

I recall a church gate collection long time ago to fund the airport. Doubt if such a collection would raise much these days.

2.3 - local investment, bonds etc. Numerous legal and regulatory difficulties with these.

3.

New business.

with improving rail and road networks, flying Knock/Dublin not so attractive.

As suggested a same day return from London may attract business. Ideally this should be to Heathrow as this is best for connectivity.

Onward connectivity for flights from Knock is essential to attract numbers

4.

Sligo and Galway are no longer competitors to Knock, which helps.

However Galway business now even more interested in Shannon, and it will be difficult for Knock to counter that attraction.

There have been some complicated financial footwork is vesting Shannon and it's assets debt free in the new Shannon board. Michael Noonan, I am sure, has been helpful there. I hope the Mayo TDs are up to speed on those matters, and ensuring that IWAK does not lose out there.

finisklin

Looks like its up, up and away for IWAK.....

From here

700,000 predicted to go through its doors this year.

nuac

Glad to hear of these projections. I hope they will be realised and indeed exceeded.

Meanwhile would welcome comments on points raised by me in post 35 above

finisklin

Looking for 10millon from the local authorities in the region. This doesn't augur well as its needs sustainable funding from central government. Some counties may not pony up.

From MWR

Mayo Councillors Unanimously Back Giving Financial Support in "Principle" to IWAK

Created on Tuesday, 15 July 2014 08:58

Ireland West airport Knock is seeking up to 10 million euro in funding from across seven local authorities in the region, in an effort to ensure its sustainability and to increase tourist numbers and revenue into the region.
Managing Director of the airport Joe Gilmore addressed members of Mayo County Council yesterday afternoon in Castlebar, to pitch “in principle” for the funding and outline the airport’s plans for the future.


The councillors unanimously backed the request “in principle” after listening to Mr Gilmore’s case for the airport. However, the exact detail of how much funding will be needed from each of the local authorities to make the plan work – remains unclear, until an announcement on central government funding for the airport is made, and that’s expected to be announced later this year.


The airport is looking for financial backing from 6 local authorities and Galway city council. It has already addressed Galway city councillors and Sligo county council and, according to Mr Gilmore they had received a positive response in principle from both of these authorities.


The councillors in Mayo were strong in support of the proposal.
Mr Gilmore said the financial backing would ensure that over the next decade the airport will double its passenger numbers from 700,000 a year to 1.3 million. It would increase the annual number of bed nights for tourists across the region from 1 to 2 million and ensure that the airport was put on a strong financial footing.

signostic

any idea who the other councils are? Would I be right in saying Roscommon, Sligo, Leitrim, Galway, Longford & Donegal

afatbollix

Are they looking for 10 million for operating costs?

Surely with a fairly new building they don't need money for up grading things?

They have extended the runway and got a up to date safety cover.


The charges they have for parking surly they can fund themselves.


I think this is a Shannon got some money so should we get free money.

Westernyelp

Suggestion of Knock running flights out of the old Galway Airport. how would this work?

http://connachttribune.ie/knock-consider-running-flights-galway-airport/

irishgeo

Westernyelp wrote: »

Suggestion of Knock running flights out of the old Galway Airport. how would this work?

http://connachttribune.ie/knock-consider-running-flights-galway-airport/

the runway is far too short and hemmed in by major roads.

mezuzaj

dec25532 wrote: »

Agree, Knock is so handy and much cheaper than dublin contrary to a previous poster. The damn €10 charge per person is downright annoying and should be removed. Surely the development excuse has outlived its reason by now. Get rid.

Much cheaper no.. 90 Euros parking for 2 weeks + 30 euros departure for family. That is 120 euros to use the airport. With Quick park in Dublin parking is 45 euros for 2 weeks.

Parking aside I have not problem paying the 10 euro tax, the airport is easy and quick to get in an out. If they didn't charge it at departure then it would be added to the ticket.. so one way or other you end up paying. Its vital we have an airport in the west and knock is doing well, but its not cheap.

Last year I flew to spain from dublin with the family, on the same route that Ryanair has from Knock, but the dublin route was 300 euros cheaper for the family, so we saved a good bit going via dublin. So its not always about the airport, sometimes tickets are a lot cheaper from Dublin or Shannon.

I still prefer knock, but price is also key. Flight+departure tax+parking if the total is 20% dearer than dublin then I book out of Dublin.

Westernyelp

mezuzaj wrote: »

Much cheaper no.. 90 Euros parking for 2 weeks + 30 euros departure for family. That is 120 euros to use the airport. With Quick park in Dublin parking is 45 euros for 2 weeks.

Parking aside I have not problem paying the 10 euro tax, the airport is easy and quick to get in an out. If they didn't charge it at departure then it would be added to the ticket.. so one way or other you end up paying. Its vital we have an airport in the west and knock is doing well, but its not cheap.

Last year I flew to spain from dublin with the family, on the same route that Ryanair has from Knock, but the dublin route was 300 euros cheaper for the family, so we saved a good bit going via dublin. So its not always about the airport, sometimes tickets are a lot cheaper from Dublin or Shannon.

I still prefer knock, but price is also key. Flight+departure tax+parking if the total is 20% dearer than dublin then I book out of Dublin.

Don't forget the petrol/diesel you burn on a return trip to Dublin plus the expense of keeping the family fed and entertained for the 6 hour round trip. The convienience of landing back half hour from home (Castlebar as example) is worth a lot too in my opinion.

mezuzaj

Westernyelp wrote: »

Don't forget the petrol/diesel you burn on a return trip to Dublin plus the expense of keeping the family fed and entertained for the 6 hour round trip. The convienience of landing back half hour from home (Castlebar as example) is worth a lot too in my opinion.

Yeah, but when the difference is 300 euros (including petrol and parking to dublin) then it makes a big difference.

But I agree Knock has a big advantage.

nuac

Westernyelp wrote: »

Don't forget the petrol/diesel you burn on a return trip to Dublin plus the expense of keeping the family fed and entertained for the 6 hour round trip. The convienience of landing back half hour from home (Castlebar as example) is worth a lot too in my opinion.

Plus of course

1. Faster movement thru Knock Airport

2. Greater certainty of finding your car, undamaged, in Knock

mezuzaj

Out of curiosity this route was 455 euros cheaper from knock. After you pay the departure tax + more expensive parking the family still saves 350 euros using knock. so in this case its better to fly from knock.