touch and go

drdeadlift

If an aircraft is performing numerous touch and goes as part of a pilot training program does each touch&go count as a flight cycle?

Xpro

Touch and Go's are logged as a take off and landing in your logbook.

Stovepipe

If you are performing ten touch and goes in one hour's flight, it's not ten miniature flights or ten flight cycles (cycles are only counted for pressurised airframes, turbine engines and rotable (overhaulable) components. It's one flight with ten landings and takeoffs. The flight is recorded from chocks away to chocks back.

regards
Stovepipe

PapaSierra

Stovepipe wrote: »

If you are performing ten touch and goes in one hour's flight, it's not ten miniature flights or ten flight cycles (cycles are only counted for pressurised airframes, turbine engines and rotable (overhaulable) components. It's one flight with ten landings and takeoffs. The flight is recorded from chocks away to chocks back.

regards
Stovepipe

...and that's called a block time and it goes to your logbook. For maintenance purposes like calculating next service or total airframe time etc. it's a time from take off to landing (from first take off to last landing in case of t&gs). Engine time is usually recorder separately by its own tachometer.
I'm not sure how t&g count in case of a jet (base training etc).

PS

Stovepipe

Hi there,
Not quite. There are a lot of ways to record flight time/engine time, etc and it leads to confusion. An engine is started before the aircraft moves and may be running for some time before the aircraft moves so it's operation is recorded separately. An engine cycle is regarded as one start, an operation to full power and back and subsequent shutdown, which is why operators like parachute clubs/crop sprayers/glider tugs/fire bombers often keep the (turbine,especially) engine running as it is refuelled/aircraft reloaded so that the start/stops are kept at a minimum, so in effect, you get more flights for one operating cycle and you avoid the wear and tear of start-ups. When a pilot records chocks-away-to-chocks-back, he is in effect recording his time as operational aircraft commander, regardless of taxi time and other delays. Some organisations used to record actual wheels-off-to-wheels-on time separately, but this is a headache and open to falsifications and mistakes, which is why block time (chocks to chocks) was invented. when it comes to airframe/component/engine time/cycles, it is sometimes the case that block time is multiplied by a factor, such as 1.3, to account for non-airborne/ flight wear and tear and also because different operations wear out aircraft at different rates, ie, short-haul versus transatlantic, low-level versus high and so on. Hobbs meters are also not an accurate guide to engine hours and pilots and engineers are better served by having a good watch and record of actual operating time.

regards
Stovepipe

Shamrock231

@Stovepipe
Just out of interest it sounds like you may know, when I read that pilots are allowed fly 900 hours a year, is that chock to chock, or wheels off to on? I'd always thought it was flying, but from reading your post it sounds like it could be chock to chock. If so does that mean that when a pilot says "I have 5000 hours total time", not all those hours were spent in the air? Does the same apply to logging time as PIC, chock to chock or wheels off to on?

Stovepipe

No, it's block time. What happens in most airlines is that block time is recorded by the aircraft's computer as brakes off to brakes on. When the aircraft begins to push back or taxi from a stand-still, it automatically transmits a departure message to the local Ops computer and this is logged to that aircraft and crew. It has the advantage that the pilot's flight log is automatically updated and he can get a print-out at the end of the month/week/year. It makes sure that he does not exceed his 900 hrs/yr, as this will be flagged at, say, 850 hours. Airlines try to spread the hours evenly over the year, so as not to have heavy months and light months and pilots having their hours completed by August, as an example. The 900 hrs per year exists to stop employers coercing pilots to fly more hours per year. A pilot's duty day can be as long as 14 hours duty time in any 24 and there are compulsory rest hours as well.

regards
Stovepipe

PS: pilots will log their hours according to their duty on the flight deck, Pilot Flying or P1 or P2.

*Kol*

Stovepipe wrote: »

Hi there,
Not quite. There are a lot of ways to record flight time/engine time, etc and it leads to confusion. An engine is started before the aircraft moves and may be running for some time before the aircraft moves so it's operation is recorded separately. An engine cycle is regarded as one start, an operation to full power and back and subsequent shutdown, which is why operators like parachute clubs/crop sprayers/glider tugs/fire bombers often keep the (turbine,especially) engine running as it is refuelled/aircraft reloaded so that the start/stops are kept at a minimum, so in effect, you get more flights for one operating cycle and you avoid the wear and tear of start-ups. When a pilot records chocks-away-to-chocks-back, he is in effect recording his time as operational aircraft commander, regardless of taxi time and other delays. Some organisations used to record actual wheels-off-to-wheels-on time separately, but this is a headache and open to falsifications and mistakes, which is why block time (chocks to chocks) was invented. when it comes to airframe/component/engine time/cycles, it is sometimes the case that block time is multiplied by a factor, such as 1.3, to account for non-airborne/ flight wear and tear and also because different operations wear out aircraft at different rates, ie, short-haul versus transatlantic, low-level versus high and so on. Hobbs meters are also not an accurate guide to engine hours and pilots and engineers are better served by having a good watch and record of actual operating time.

regards
Stovepipe

All airframe and engine hours in commercial airlines are recorded from takeoff to landing not from chock to chock. These are the hours used to determine when maintenance will be required.

Shamrock231

Stovepipe wrote: »

No, it's block time. What happens in most airlines is that block time is recorded by the aircraft's computer as brakes off to brakes on. When the aircraft begins to push back or taxi from a stand-still, it automatically transmits a departure message to the local Ops computer and this is logged to that aircraft and crew. It has the advantage that the pilot's flight log is automatically updated and he can get a print-out at the end of the month/week/year. It makes sure that he does not exceed his 900 hrs/yr, as this will be flagged at, say, 850 hours. Airlines try to spread the hours evenly over the year, so as not to have heavy months and light months and pilots having their hours completed by August, as an example. The 900 hrs per year exists to stop employers coercing pilots to fly more hours per year. A pilot's duty day can be as long as 14 hours duty time in any 24 and there are compulsory rest hours as well.

regards
Stovepipe

PS: pilots will log their hours according to their duty on the flight deck, Pilot Flying or P1 or P2.

Thanks a million for that explanation, clears things up a whole lot. Just one question on the 900 hours though, is that per calender year, or in the preceeding 365 days?

Thanks again, much appreciated.

Growler!!!

Shamrock231 wrote: »

Thanks a million for that explanation, clears things up a whole lot. Just one question on the 900 hours though, is that per calender year, or in the preceeding 365 days?

Thanks again, much appreciated.

Its calculated over the preceding 365 days. If you look up flight time limitations (FTL) on Google it will give you the full break down.

As an example in my case I will be taking leave for almost all of July. I have 820 hrs flown in the previous 365 days. When I return in August my yearly hours should have dropped to 720 as I will have no rostered flight duties for July. Max flight time is 100 hours in a 28 day period.

Stovepipe

@kol, you are misled. When the engines start, the aircraft transmits same to the Ops computer and the clock starts running, both in the FADEC, the aircraft clock (in older aircraft, the timer was deliberately started when the igniter was selected) and the Ops computer. It's the start-stop that matters, with it's immediate effect of temperature and pressure on moving parts, not the actual time spent airborne. The engine is unaware whether it is on land or in the air, but it is aware when it has been heated up. An engine cycle is from when the engine is started, brought to operating temperature and shut down, which has an effect on it's ultimate life, so even ground-only operation is recorded and accounted for. Block time is the best way of pleasing pilots and engineers, as it covers flight time and non-flight time.

regards
Stovepipe

*Kol*

Stovepipe wrote: »

@kol, you are misled. When the engines start, the aircraft transmits same to the Ops computer and the clock starts running, both in the FADEC, the aircraft clock (in older aircraft, the timer was deliberately started when the igniter was selected) and the Ops computer. It's the start-stop that matters, with it's immediate effect of temperature and pressure on moving parts, not the actual time spent airborne. The engine is unaware whether it is on land or in the air, but it is aware when it has been heated up. An engine cycle is from when the engine is started, brought to operating temperature and shut down, which has an effect on it's ultimate life, so even ground-only operation is recorded and accounted for. Block time is the best way of pleasing pilots and engineers, as it covers flight time and non-flight time.

regards
Stovepipe

Sorry Stovepipe. You are incorrect on that one. It is not industry practice to record engine times from start up to shut down and ground operations are not included in the times.

Tenger

Could this difference in opinion be due to working in 2 different operations?

Both posters have demonstrated good aviation knowledge before......

Stovepipe

I disagree, Kol. Whilst ground operation of an engine is not counted as part of flight time, because of the potential delays involved, the running time is recorded by the aircraft (such as an A320 or 737NG) and the Ops computer and it is also automatically transmitted to the manufacturer and the actual owner of the engine (might be a leasing company), so there may not be a paper entry in a logbook but it's already recorded in someone's computer. If we run an engine as part of maintenance, it is recorded as a log of fuel used/oil used(in case of excessive consumption) and as an event in a workorder. It's not that long ago since engine logbooks had a column for ground operations of an engine and some old operators made it policy to record long delays and long taxying periods on the ground. Block time is easy because it takes the guesswork out of it and also stops deliberate or accidental logging of false flight time. I once worked for an organisation that had a serious conflict between the pilots and engineers about what was to be logged and the final outcome was a victory for the engineers because we had a legal responsibility to keep accurate logbooks and some of the younger pilots were "padding" their logbooks.

regards
Stovepipe