Gospel Choir live sound

TroutMask

Hi Music Production crue!

I have a technical challenge for ya - one that you might have more solutions to than i do - it concerns live sound for a gospel choir. Now I have a lot of choral experience, but mostly recording classical & not gospel format so much. I also have loads of live experience so get tech'y if you want.

This is a choir that I joined as a singer about 8 months ago, and they've asked me to help solve some of the problems with reinforcement. When I say 'Gospel' they're kinda hep and more 'orchestral/arranged pop' with gospel stuff thrown in - rather than straight-up happy-clappy-in-a-church.

First the obvious: the musicians are not really the problem, they are real pros. Drums, bass, keys guitar, sometimes sax. They don't play too loud. So spill is not the issue - a little bit - but maybe plexi baffles down the line would sort that.

The main issue is getting the choral mix loud (and good sounding enough) in the halls. The main issue i see here is that most noise boys/gals we've dealt with don't seem to understand how to mic a choir. The best sound we had so far was at a festival - the guy put up one 58 for each 3 singers - so about nine 58s total.

Engineers who put up condenser overheads and try to mix it that way usually fail miserably. I think mic quality might be an issue here - as cheaper SDC mics tend to sound thin and bright anyway and tend to clutter the mix with spill. I have some Sennheiser MKH-series mics that sound awesome and nothing like cheap mics - though I'm a bit wary of putting them out live.
So, is the 2 or 3 singers on a 58 the only way forward, or can you think of a more sophisticated method? Or perhaps a 58-esque mic with a more refined sound (beta perhaps?)
Any assistance would be most appreciated.

peter05

TroutMask wrote: »

Hi Music Production crue!



Engineers who put up condenser overheads and try to mix it that way usually fail miserably. I think mic quality might be an issue here - as cheaper SDC mics tend to sound thin and bright anyway and tend to clutter the mix with spill.

Nail on the (over)head.

If the 58 way of working works why change it?

I've seen most choir ensembles having a desk before it goes to the studio/live desk. Some of the larger soundstages in the US might be worth a look at see how they setup for the recording/live. Most of their mics are top notch. There is some fantastic articles I have come across in AES. I shall have a hunt for you later.

Avatar studios in NY Have a stereo pair of Neumann set in the middle of the live room that are never touch. I'll find what model they are for you.

TroutMask

It's not ideal and i'm looking for alternatives. I've come up with a couple of solutions that i want to try next rehearsal. I think comb filtering might be an additional reason our noise boy/gal's OH's sound like a box of rifles

peter05

Can you get a loan of the acoustic shield and try with a condenser, see will it tame the spill and a curtain behind the choir. You can tame those 58 oh's with a notch between 800-900hz and if it is still a bit nasal, between 1-2khz

TroutMask

Spill is not really the problem, fortunately. We're lucky in that regard. Since we play myriad different venues, often with little checking, the provision of drapes is not always a goer. The 58 problem is not so much an EQ one as physical/logistical, i think 2 singers per 58 might work better + soloists of course, and then 2 OHs - 9 feet apart. I'd like to try Audix vocal mics too, do you have any experience with those?

PeterR1016

Here's something you could try. If you can afford it, http://www.thomann.de/ie/akg_c391b_condesnser_mic.htm. They are a great mic, 2/3 of them would do the job nicely. I've used these many many times on school choirs with orchestras in the worst room possible.

If you know what your doing, you'll appreciate them! I would strongly advice against 3 people to an sm58 because you'll be trying to get so much gain out of the mic that you'll end up having feedback issues very quickly PLUS you will be getting direct sounds from voices rather than one rich sound from a choir.

What your trying to do is amplify (a lot if necessary) the clarity to give a full sound. Try not to have the faders up so much but just enough to get a nice balance between the choir and instruments.

If you need more info, feel free to pm me.

studiorat

Depends on how loud you want to get. Most naturally I like the choir in front of the PA system and wide cardioid or omni-microphones. They aren't so harsh off axis. If the PA has to be somewhere else I delay it the arrival times behind the choir for precedence. So it feels like the sound is coming from the choir.

For a pop choir again if I didn't have SM-58's for everyone, I'd use wide or omni microphones to try and prevent that off axis harshness.

PeterR1016

studiorat wrote: »

Depends on how loud you want to get. Most naturally I like the choir in front of the PA system and wide cardioid or omni-microphones. They aren't so harsh off axis. If the PA has to be somewhere else I delay it the arrival times behind the choir for precedence. So it feels like the sound is coming from the choir.

For a pop choir again if I didn't have SM-58's for everyone, I'd use wide or omni microphones to try and prevent that off axis harshness.

Well said Studiorat. That's exactly how I'd approach it too! I think the cardioid's give a great sound for choirs. Highly recommend that ^^

TroutMask

studiorat wrote: »

Depends on how loud you want to get. Most naturally I like the choir in front of the PA system and wide cardioid or omni-microphones. They aren't so harsh off axis. If the PA has to be somewhere else I delay it the arrival times behind the choir for precedence. So it feels like the sound is coming from the choir.

For a pop choir again if I didn't have SM-58's for everyone, I'd use wide or omni microphones to try and prevent that off axis harshness.

We can't go in front of the PA - have to be onstage. Last time we did 2 per 58 for the Basses and 3 per 58 for the Sops and Altos + OHs -it worked out quite well. The Bass section is the section that has a problem cutting through - so 2 per 58 really worked out for them.