Can coming out change someone's attitude for the better?

macalla macalla

Hi all,

Long-time lurker, etc. Thought I might pay back with a thread of my own for once.

Skip to the end if you don't like rambling yarns. I do, so here goes :P

So, to start off, there's a girl in work who I would consider my best work buddy; let's call her Anna. Another co-worker of mine (let’s call him Christopher, for the craic) has a brother who came into the restaurant earlier today. I tell Anna that Christopher’s brother is here, and nod in the direction in which the brother is sitting. Anna has never seen the brother before and glances at him, turns back to me and completely stony-faced tells me that “He is a gay”. Here’s how the rest of the conversation goes:

Me: What do you mean, ‘a gay’?
Anna: A gay, like he likes the boys instead of the girls. (She offered a more concise definition as well, which I don’t think I need to write!)
Me: Well, normally we tend to just say “He is gay” (Anna is Bulgarian and English is not her first language, bless :pac:) And why do you say that anyway?
Anna: Christopher told me a few days ago.
Me: What kind of conversation led to him telling you his brother is gay?
Anna: I was telling him how much I hate the gay people and he got angry and told me his brother is a gay.
Me: You hate gay people? Why?
Anna: I don’t know. Why should I like them? It’s not normal. (All said nonchalantly and with a shrug, no real hatred or aggression in it)

Strangely enough, I wasn’t hurt by what she said about hating gay people because I realise it’s an attitude some people have and I actually don’t judge them for it. My reasoning is that perhaps I might have held that attitude were I not gay or had the educational and social experiences I have had.

Anyway, I was left wondering: should I have told Anna that I’m gay right there and then and see how she reacted? Would that have helped change her attitude in any way, to know that somebody she gets on very well with and likes happens to be ‘a gay’? Or was I better off keeping my mouth shut (which I did) and leave her with that attitude, as coming out to her mightn’t have helped anything?

Has anyone else been in a situation where someone had a rant about gay people and then surprised that person by coming out to them? Or, does anyone know anybody who might have been previously homophobic but your coming out to them changed their outlook?

Ambersky

I would suggest finding out a little more about where Anna is coming from. Just how do people who hate the gays behave towards gay people in Bulgaria. Anna is in a minority here with the confidence to put her hatred, as she says herself, out there so openly. She may not even realise she is now in a minority and not expect to have her hatred challenged. Go and do a bit of Googling on Bulgaria and the backlash against lesbians and gays. You may find Anna is not the only one getting an education.

macalla macalla

Ambersky wrote: »

I would suggest finding out a little more about where Anna is coming from. Just how do people who hate the gays behave towards gay people in Bulgaria. Anna is in a minority here with the confidence to put her hatred, as she says herself, out there so openly. She may not even realise she is now in a minority and not expect to have her hatred challenged. Go and do a bit of Googling on Bulgaria and the backlash against lesbians and gays. You may find Anna is not the only one getting an education.

That’s an interesting point and I suppose I didn’t give much thought to Anna and how extreme her attitude might be. Perhaps I can broach the subject again at an appropriate time to find out more.

But I suppose my real question here is that, as a gay person, was it my duty to inform her that I myself am gay, in the hope that her attitude would change somewhat? I was just interested in hearing whether anybody else has been in a similar situation, and whether their coming out to so-and-so helped change so-and-so’s opinions?

wonderfulname

You are under no obligation to reveal your sexuality to any person for any reason.

I have changed some peoples opinions by being around and out, and equally I've had some tense relationships with people based on the fact I was out, they were a homophobe, and we were stuck with each other. I honestly wouldn't advise you to do anything past what makes you comfortable.

Ambersky

macalla macalla I want to give a positive answer to your question and a yes to the idea that coming out can change both the LGBT person and the homophobes attitude for the better.

Yes I have come out in a work situation, in ordinary conversation where at first I was isolated, stared at, whispered about, etc and eventually got an apology and a rather poignant explanation from the woman who started it.
Social change in favour of equality for LGBT people was brought about by lots of things in my opinion. Sometimes when people dont like a particular tactic they say "we wont get equality that way" but I think all the ways add up. There is a place for people to be angry, to demonstrate, to have calm discussions, to have media campaigns, to simply come out to themselves, to come out to their family and friends, to come out to complete strangers, to come out at work, etc.
Sometimes it just takes meeting one LGBT person to shake a persons prejudice and hatred and to realise our common humanity. Sometimes change doesn't happen that quickly and it takes meeting more, or someone in their own family coming out, or for the general public to change and to no longer feel they hold a high moral ground over these social outcasts. Political campaigns did a lot, individuals backed by supporters and friends did a lot and simple things like LGBT people being on Big Brother on the telly every night in peoples homes did a lot too. It is really really important to have laws that protect us but it is a mistake to think that that is the whole story. Social change is just as important as legal change and it cant be taken for granted, there must be social as well as legal acceptance. So ordinary people doing their bit by coming out and dispelling myths about the evil gays are doing just as important a job as the political activists trying to change laws in my opinion.

But back to your situation. I brought up the issue of where your work colleague was coming from because I think that is part of the context.
We have seen some really violent homophobic behavior coming from some countries in Eastern Europe and Bulgaria is included in that. That's not saying your colleague is responsible for all that has happened in her country or even that she has taken part in any actual violent act other than to feel free to express her hatred. But enough people verbally expressing hatred can give validation to violent acts and to my mind they too are socially responsible for the injustice that occurs.

An urgent overhaul of Bulgarian laws is needed to ensure that hate crimes which all too frequently target gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) people are properly investigated and prosecuted, Amnesty International recommends in a briefing published today.

“Dozens of LGBT people have been beaten, raped, and in one case murdered because of their real or perceived sexual orientation or gender identity. Most of these crimes have not been properly investigated and have gone unpunished,” said Emily Gray, Amnesty International’s expert on sexual orientation and gender identity.

http://www.amnesty.org/fr/node/32850

When we see the videos of the violence happening in Easter Europe it is natural to feel afraid. Fear initially stops me but then I usually feel angry and then I want to do something.
You cant do anything about whats happening in Bulgaria but what if this is an opportunity to change or even influence one persons opinion from that country. What if your colleague became more accepting and her change went on to influence change in someone she knows. What if these changes didnt happen immediately and what if they happened and you never got to find out about them or what they resulted in or what they prevented.

There is a theory or view of life that we all get opportunities in life to act courageously, to be Hero's. We can choose to accept the challenge or or we can reject it or try to reject it.

Joseph Campbell's monomyth, or the hero's journey, is a basic pattern that its proponents argue is found in many narratives from around the world.
In a monomyth, the hero begins in the ordinary world, and receives a call to enter an unknown world of strange powers and events. The hero who accepts the call to enter this strange world must face tasks and trials, either alone or with assistance. In the most intense versions of the narrative, the hero must survive a severe challenge, often with help. If the hero survives, he may achieve a great gift or "boon." The hero must then decide whether to return to the ordinary world with this boon. If the hero does decide to return, he or she often faces challenges on the return journey. If the hero returns successfully, the boon or gift may be used to improve the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monomyth

Maybe macalla macalla coming out at work to a colleague who says she hates the gays, stands a chance of influencing a better attitude in her towards LGBT people, but maybe it stands an even better chance of changing you yourself for the better as it is said we are shaped by our choices and what we stand for.

macalla macalla

Ambersky wrote: »

macalla macalla I want to give a positive answer to your question and a yes to the idea that coming out can change both the LGBT person and the homophobes attitude for the better.

Yes I have come out in a work situation, in ordinary conversation where at first I was isolated, stared at, whispered about, etc and eventually got an apology and a rather poignant explanation from the woman who started it.
Social change in favour of equality for LGBT people was brought about by lots of things in my opinion. Sometimes when people dont like a particular tactic they say "we wont get equality that way" but I think all the ways add up. There is a place for people to be angry, to demonstrate, to have calm discussions, to have media campaigns, to simply come out to themselves, to come out to their family and friends, to come out to complete strangers, to come out at work, etc.
Sometimes it just takes meeting one LGBT person to shake a persons prejudice and hatred and to realise our common humanity. Sometimes change doesn't happen that quickly and it takes meeting more, or someone in their own family coming out, or for the general public to change and to no longer feel they hold a high moral ground over these social outcasts. Political campaigns did a lot, individuals backed by supporters and friends did a lot and simple things like LGBT people being on Big Brother on the telly every night in peoples homes did a lot too. It is really really important to have laws that protect us but it is a mistake to think that that is the whole story. Social change is just as important as legal change and it cant be taken for granted, there must be social as well as legal acceptance. So ordinary people doing their bit by coming out and dispelling myths about the evil gays are doing just as important a job as the political activists trying to change laws in my opinion.

But back to your situation. I brought up the issue of where your work colleague was coming from because I think that is part of the context.
We have seen some really violent homophobic behavior coming from some countries in Eastern Europe and Bulgaria is included in that. That's not saying your colleague is responsible for all that has happened in her country or even that she has taken part in any actual violent act other than to feel free to express her hatred. But enough people verbally expressing hatred can give validation to violent acts and to my mind they too are socially responsible for the injustice that occurs.


http://www.amnesty.org/fr/node/32850

When we see the videos of the violence happening in Easter Europe it is natural to feel afraid. Fear initially stops me but then I usually feel angry and then I want to do something.
You cant do anything about whats happening in Bulgaria but what if this is an opportunity to change or even influence one persons opinion from that country. What if your colleague became more accepting and her change went on to influence change in someone she knows. What if these changes didnt happen immediately and what if they happened and you never got to find out about them or what they resulted in or what they prevented.

There is a theory or view of life that we all get opportunities in life to act courageously, to be Hero's. We can choose to accept the challenge or or we can reject it or try to reject it.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monomyth

Maybe macalla macalla coming out at work to a colleague who says she hates the gays, stands a chance of influencing a better attitude in her towards LGBT people, but maybe it stands an even better chance of changing you yourself for the better as it is said we are shaped by our choices and what we stand for.

Thanks Ambersky for taking the time to write such a thought-provoking reply. I never knew the situation in countries like Bulgaria was so serious. That was really interesting reading.

I think the conclusion I've come to since reading this thread's replies, and from mulling it over in my head for the past few days, is that it should never be an obligation to come out to somebody in the hope of changing their attitude.

However, I've been considering the quote All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing and the fact that it might just ring true in this case. If I am in a position of being comfortable with coming out to others, and where it might just help change attitudes of hatred and fear, perhaps coming out is the most morally correct thing to do.

Ambersky

If you do decide to go ahead I for one would be interested if you cared to post any further on how things went, or are going, in the relationship between your work colleague and yourself. It is an interesting situation but similar to one many of us have to face at some time or other. Thanks for posting about it.

Nuttzz

macalla macalla wrote: »

Has anyone else been in a situation where someone had a rant about gay people and then surprised that person by coming out to them? Or, does anyone know anybody who might have been previously homophobic but your coming out to them changed their outlook?

In my teens and early twenties I was a horrible homophobe, my father brought me up to believe that there was something inherently wrong with homosexuals and they were a threat to other men.

I worked with a guy and he came out in the 90's to us in work, he was a really nice and sound guy, I explained my background and how I felt and he told me that he always thought I was a nice guy. All it took was a few pints and a chat to see how stupid my thoughts were, I began to question a lot of things that I had been taught and certainly opened my eyes

macalla macalla

Ambersky wrote: »

If you do decide to go ahead I for one would be interested if you cared to post any further on how things went, or are going, in the relationship between your work colleague and yourself. It is an interesting situation but similar to one many of us have to face at some time or other. Thanks for posting about it.

No problem! It was just on my mind after it happened, and wanted to hear other perspectives on the matter. If anything does happen, I will be sure to post.

The problem now is that the work colleague and I have gotten too friendly with each other and we spend more time talking and joking with each other than we do actually working. Management called is into the office today and warned us about it :pac: It's like we're the disruptive kids at the back of the class So, we're not allowed talk to each other as much during shifts, but if a conversation like that comes up with her again, I think I will say something. Perhaps not come out, as I don't think I'm 100% comfortable doing that just yet, but come to the defence of 'the gays' in some way and learn more about where she's coming from. I'd also be interested to hear about attitudes to 'the gays' where she comes from, after reading what you posted.

Thanks again!

Nuttzz wrote: »

In my teens and early twenties I was a horrible homophobe, my father brought me up to believe that there was something inherently wrong with homosexuals and they were a threat to other men.

I worked with a guy and he came out in the 90's to us in work, he was a really nice and sound guy, I explained my background and how I felt and he told me that he always thought I was a nice guy. All it took was a few pints and a chat to see how stupid my thoughts were, I began to question a lot of things that I had been taught and certainly opened my eyes

Wow, that's really cool seeing it from the opposite perspective. And it seems like it was easy for you to change your attitude after getting to know someone. Thanks, your reply has given me a lot of hope!

ninty9er

I have a Polish colleague whose girlfriend is also Polish. Both of them were at mine for a BBQ with the lads a few weeks ago and explained that they never really experienced 'knowing' a gay person before coming to Ireland.

It's just a matter of coming to terms with the 'new normal' in a different society

Seamai

ninty9er wrote: »

I have a Polish colleague whose girlfriend is also Polish. Both of them were at mine for a BBQ with the lads a few weeks ago and explained that they never really experienced 'knowing' a gay person before coming to Ireland.

It's just a matter of coming to terms with the 'new normal' in a different society

It doesn't surpise me that your Polish friend said that she never knew a gay person before coming to Ireland. I've been there a few time and while I never got to have any indept conversation with any Polish gay men or lesbians, gay visibility seems to be non existant there. I've no doubt that there are things going on there, but out of the public view. The scene was very basic with most of the bars I visited in Warsaw and Krakow of the ring a door bell to be vetted before being allowed in variety. What shocked me most though were anti gay notices (a pictogram of a guy screwing another from behind with a red line through it) around the streets of Oswiecim (Auschwitz) put up by some right wing catholic family group

Ambersky

This is where the statement "I dont care if somebody is gay or not" in response to someone coming out to them makes me feel a bit uncomfortable.
That statement is about not caring one way or another, which is grand if you are not in any kind of difficulty but not so useful if you are in any kind of difficulty. I guess they are trying to reassure the person saying "dont worry about me I wont personally kick you, but I wont get involved and stop anyone who does", in a figurative and maybe even literal kind of way.
I think most people don't really get involved in issues, they kind of get along with their own lives and if the majority are against gays, well that's how they feel about them too basically. And if they find themselves in a situation where the majority are ok with gays then they are ok with that too.
And OMG Seamai how could people put up anti gay posters in Auschwitz of all places. The place is suppose to be dedicated to the memory of just how bad hating groups of people can get, (of course most of them say they didnt see or hear anything to be concerned about then either)
dont they remember this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pink_triangle
Of course there was a writing out of what happened to LGBT at that time partly because of how badly society continued to treat us.

While the number of homosexuals in German concentration camps is hard to estimate, Richard Plant gives a rough estimate of the number of men convicted for homosexuality "between 1933 to 1944 at between 50,000 and 63,000.........
After the camps were liberated at the end of the Second World War, many of the pink triangle prisoners were often simply re-imprisoned by the Allied-established Federal Republic of Germany. An openly gay man named Heinz Dörmer, for instance, served 20 years total, first in a Nazi concentration camp and then in the jails of the new Republic. In fact, the Nazi amendments to Paragraph 175, which turned homosexuality from a minor offense into a felony, remained intact in both East and West Germany after the war for a further 24 years. While suits seeking monetary compensation have failed, in 2002 the German government issued an official apology to the gay community.[

wonderfulname

When people say "I don't care" they more often than not mean "I don't mind", some of the most supportive people of LGBT rights I know claim they don't care.

Ambersky

If they are saying they dont mind, what are they saying they dont mind? Do they think they are giving permission. When I tell someone I am gay I am not looking for permission, I am not asking them if they mind the fact that I am gay. Why do they feel the need to tell me whether they mind or not?

Maybe its just semantics but what I am commenting on is the way a lot of people dont seem to think about things as ninty9er says they just get use to a new normal. So whatever is normal or the norm they go along with. I think not caring and not minding is a statement of neutrality and neutrality is fine unless people are being denied human rights. I think many people just dont think about things especially if it doesn't seem to affect them and I think a smaller group actually get involved in issues .

I dont think anything bad is meant by, I dont mind, or I dont care, I am suggesting that it is not actually a statement of support.
I suppose people could say verbally that they dont mind or care but show that they do care, in their actions. That would just be in my opinion saying one thing and doing another but in a way I would like. Maybe it comes from a place where we are so use to the possibility that people may take us being LGBT badly that we are happy with even grateful for statements of neutrality. Im just a little bit suspicious that if there was a backlash and things were to swing the other way, to this being a mainly homophobic society, that those people who say they dont care still wouldnt care one way or another and wouldnt actually stand up against homophobia.