Science in Schools

MagicMarker

Since when is science optional? I thought all students had to do at least one science subject?

http://m.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=85048768#post85048768

It's actually depressing.

MagicMarker

Sorry, can't hyperlink, on mobile.

spurious

Not all schools have enough Science teachers to allow it to be compulsory and people are retiring all the time and not being replaced.

Galvasean

I assumed science was mandatory at JC level (no, not that! :eek: :pac: :eek:) but the three sciences (physics, biology and chemistry) were optional for LC.
Sad really. There's no science in primary school (unless your teacher is great and does it off their own back) and many secondary schools don't provide it. It's a rotten system.

dirkmeister

Galvasean wrote: »

Sad really. There's no science in primary school (unless your teacher is great and does it off their own back)

Incorrect. It's found under S.E.S.E.

Galvasean

dirkmeister wrote: »

Incorrect. It's found under S.E.S.E.

Interesting... Sounds good.
http://www.curriculumonline.ie/en/Primary_School_Curriculum/Social_Environmental_and_Scientific_Education_SESE_/Science/

Is it a mandatory subject?

dirkmeister

Galvasean wrote: »

Interesting... Sounds good.
http://www.curriculumonline.ie/en/Primary_School_Curriculum/Social_Environmental_and_Scientific_Education_SESE_/Science/

Is it a mandatory subject?

Yes, as with all subjects Science is mandatory in Primary Schools. S.E.S.E gets 3 hours per week, normally divided up as an hour for each subject.

rainbow kirby

My secondary school allowed students to drop it in favour of Home Economics after 1st year. They had more than enough teachers to cover science for anyone who wanted to do it, they just placed sweet feck all value on it. All girls convent schools, dontcha know - let people close off a lot of career options for themselves, but it's ok because they can cook a bit :rolleyes:

Mardy Bum

rainbow kirby wrote: »

My secondary school allowed students to drop it in favour of Home Economics after 1st year. They had more than enough teachers to cover science for anyone who wanted to do it, they just placed sweet feck all value on it. All girls convent schools, dontcha know - let people close off a lot of career options for themselves, but it's ok because they can cook a bit :rolleyes:

This is a timetabling issue though rather than a neglect of it. Home economics does contain a good bit of science admittedly food related.

Cosmicfox

My primary school textbooks science chapters were always skipped. We just did loads of geography instead.

You could drop science completely after first year.

MagicMarker

Schools seem to be a bit **** when it comes to advising their students.

As a student myself, just over from England, I had to refine what subjects I'd be studying after the JC. Of course the LC and college applications were not even close to being on my mind as a 14/15 year old. I just dropped what I didn't like, which happened to be French, I was also exempt from Irish.

No one thought to tell me that by dropping a language I'd be excluding myself from applying to about 85% of 3rd level courses. :mad:

shruikan2553

They dont need science, can spend the time doing extra Irish and religion!

MagicMarker wrote: »

Schools seem to be a bit **** when it comes to advising their students.

As a student myself, just over from England, I had to refine what subjects I'd be studying after the JC. Of course the LC and college applications were not even close to being on my mind as a 14/15 year old. I just dropped what I didn't like, which happened to be French, I was also exempt from Irish.

No one thought to tell me that by dropping a language I'd be excluding myself from applying to about 85% of 3rd level courses. :mad:

Luckily the NUI/UC group of unis dont require a language for science or engineering courses. Wish someone told me this instead of me wasting my time doing a pass subject when I could of done a subject at honours I was good at.

mohawk

dirkmeister wrote: »

Yes, as with all subjects Science is mandatory in Primary Schools. S.E.S.E gets 3 hours per week, normally divided up as an hour for each subject.

I went to primary school in England. I had to do SATs and science, maths and english were examined (and taught in equal measure). We spent far more then 1 hour a week on science. (We also didn't spend hours a week on religion.) When I moved back to Ireland my friends were learning science for the first time in secondary school.

I have heard stories of secondary schools offering a choice between business studies and science for the JC.
Science is needed for so many college courses. What the hell does a 12 year old know about picking subjects?

wonderfulname

It was compulsory for me in the JC and students were actively encouraged to take a science for the leaving to keep their options open for the future, it was extremely odd for someone not to iirc, people would ask you which science you were taking, not if you were taking one. I'm now aware it's not the norm but I figured I'd throw a positive example into this thread.

Doctor Strange

I do understand that a good amount of people find science "boring"... but really, a basic comprehension is necessary.

KyussBishop

Switch Religion for Critical Thinking, and Irish for a science. Wonder what it would take to actually make it happen.

Kiwi in IE

It seems as a parent here you cannot rely on the education system to inform and prepare your child properly at all. Clearly I am going to have to do science as homeschooling throughout primary school, teach critical thinking and proper ethics (as opposed to religious 'morals'), and become an expert on exactly what is needed for entry into which college course when he hits secondary school! Well I guess it's good I know that now as he is starting primary school rather than find out too late.

I might order the science text books used in the equivelant of junior and senior infants from NZ.

kylith

mohawk wrote: »

What the hell does a 12 year old know about picking subjects?

Even as a 12 year old I realised that it was ridiculous. I knew that I had no idea what career I wanted, and I thought that it was stupid that I had to make decisions which would effect the rest of my life when I was so young.

eviltwin

My eldest is going into 5th year. Both chemistry and physics have been dropped from their LC subject choice due to "funding issues". They don't offer Religion as an exam subject but will be still required to attend 1.5 hours of religion class per week. Nuts and depressing.

Kiwi that is a great idea. I think I might get my brother in law in London to send me over some books for my youngest so I can basically home school him in science.

Kiwi in IE

eviltwin wrote: »

My eldest is going into 5th year. Both chemistry and physics have been dropped from their LC subject choice due to "funding issues". They don't offer Religion as an exam subject but will be still required to attend 1.5 hours of religion class per week. Nuts and depressing.

Kiwi that is a great idea. I think I might get my brother in law in London to send me over some books for my youngest so I can basically home school him in science.

What on earth are you supposed to do in that situation if LC chemistry, biology or both are required for entrance to the college course your kid wants to do?

Feck, I thought religion was the only real problem with the Irish education system and it was otherwise pretty good! Seems not.

Mardy Bum

If the public knew the difficulties involved in timetabling across the country this year they would be outraged. Its not really going to make the papers though.

eviltwin

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

What on earth are you supposed to do in that situation if LC chemistry, biology or both are required for entrance to the college course your kid wants to do?

Feck, I thought religion was the only real problem with the Irish education system and it was otherwise pretty good! Seems not.

Tough basically, you go elsewhere or find something else you want to do instead.

rainbow kirby

eviltwin wrote: »

My eldest is going into 5th year. Both chemistry and physics have been dropped from their LC subject choice due to "funding issues". They don't offer Religion as an exam subject but will be still required to attend 1.5 hours of religion class per week. Nuts and depressing.

Similar thing happened in my old school - the only physics teacher retired when my younger sister was in Transition Year, physics hasn't been offered since. Of course, gotta have 4 religion classes a week... :rolleyes:

MagicMarker

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

What on earth are you supposed to do in that situation if LC chemistry, biology or both are required for entrance to the college course your kid wants to do?

Feck, I thought religion was the only real problem with the Irish education system and it was otherwise pretty good! Seems not.

The only other option really is to study those subjects in your own time, grinds will probably be a necessity. Plus you'd probably have to find another school that will allow you to sit the exam.

My place did applied maths, students from other local schools came in to do it with us. It was set in the evening so they could come after school
Might have to do something similar if you're stuck for a subject
Thank christ I never had religion in secondary school

Gumbi

bluewolf wrote: »

Thank christ I never had religion in secondary school

Why not?

Religion was mostly a wishy-washy ethics/study/waste of time class in my school. Some thing we did were bothersome, but I don't have feelings as strong about such subjects back then as I do now :P

Gumbi

Gumbi wrote: »

Why not?

Wasn't done

lazygal

I think I might be an exception here. My secondary school had great science teachers (one of whom was a nun!) and really good labs. Physics, chemistry and biology were all offered at higher level right through to the leaving cert and during transition year we all did several science programmes. The Young Scientist Exhibition was always touted as something we should do, and lots us did it. I'm not in touch with many of the women I was in school with, but my best friend who I see regularly is a scientist, as is another mutual friend, and a few others went into science-eque careers.

I'm not trumpeting my school as brilliant overall, but even though it was an all girls convent school we were always encouraged to do science/higher level maths, and higher level was the norm rather than the exception.

Sarky

I had much the same. Well, I can't speak for chemistry, I had lousy teachers up until the junior cert that could never explain it well, so I dropped it in favour of physics and biology, which were excellently taught, physics in particular by the most rational and non-insane priest I've ever met. I do regret dropping chemistry now, it makes some aspects of microbiology far harder to grasp.

Still, plenty of people dropped the lot of them because they wanted easier subjects. Damn fools.

Manach

Offhand my own secondary school actively encouraged visits from scientists from the local university to encourage careers in that discipline. I had found the talks both informative and formative.
An exception in chemistry though - given the number of beakers smashed, strange liquids splashed on the lab floor and steam propelled tubes flying across the room, I decided that branch was not for me.

mohawk

eviltwin wrote: »

My eldest is going into 5th year. Both chemistry and physics have been dropped from their LC subject choice due to "funding issues". They don't offer Religion as an exam subject but will be still required to attend 1.5 hours of religion class per week. Nuts and depressing.

Kiwi that is a great idea. I think I might get my brother in law in London to send me over some books for my youngest so I can basically home school him in science.

So no future engineers in that school. Physics would also be useful for plenty of computer related careers (aren't there jobs in IT sector).

My school refused to run an economics class for my year as there wasn't enough demand, but ran a chemistry class that had less demand in order not to rule out any courses for us at third level.
I remember the religion class as being a bit of a welcome break after double maths. It was a little chance to switch off the brain.

dirkmeister

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

Clearly I am going to have to do science as homeschooling throughout primary school, teach critical thinking and proper ethics .

Why, since Science is already taught in Primary Schools?

LittleBook

From a recent study of primary schools:

On the teaching of science, the study finds below average levels of confidence among teachers in teaching the subject.

It also finds Irish trainee teachers not spending enough time on science at college.

Over a three-year teacher training course it found just between 12 and 40 hours in total was spent on science.

The study found Irish ten-year-olds spend far less time studying science in school - 7%, compared to an international average of 10%.

They spend more time on religion than any other country except Israel.

Also primary students aren't taught key maths skills.

In maths, it found that not enough time was spent on teaching problem-solving, the curriculum was outdated and that Irish pupils were not learning key skills being taught in other countries.

There's feck all point in lamping an extra 25 points on for anyone who does Higher Maths at the end of school if the basics are being neglected in the beginning.

robindch

^^^ Last time the forum looked into that, it turned out that the time spent on religion and science/maths varies widely around the country. And where the time spent on either was higher or lower average, it was clear from the stats that that schools which spent more time on religion subsidized that time by taking it from science/maths.

No great surprises there, but still disappointing.

Brian Shanahan

MagicMarker wrote: »

No one thought to tell me that by dropping a language I'd be excluding myself from applying to about 85% of 3rd level courses. :mad:

[rant] I was told by my principal that there would be no problem for me getting into uni without a foreign language. He kept this up even after I pointed out that without a language I was ineligible for the NUI colleges, leaving me with only UL and DCU as options (aside from the Regional Tech. Institutes, not an option really for academic courses in the 90's). All simply because his meddling as a first year principal destroyed a LC scheduling system which had been working for twenty years.

He also wanted me to do Woodwork (I had, and have to this day, no skill with tools), I ended up doing Chemistry in the local convent (had to walk a half mile there and back every day), and had to drop my second choice subject (German) in order to do my first (Accounting). In all of my 6 chosen subjects I was given two and had to fight hard for a third (Chemistry) and a language I didn't want to do (French, because the teacher spent more time flirting with the handsome students than teaching). It was a mess. [/rant]

Kiwi in IE

dirkmeister wrote: »

Why, since Science is already taught in Primary Schools?

One hour a week? In a subject that also includes history and geography which also get an hour each? And 2.5 hours on religion apparently? I might employ a science tutor to go into his school for 2.5 hours a week to supervise him and teach him science, while the rest of the class have their heads filled with nonsense.

Peregrine

It wasn't compulsory for us in Junior Cert but out of 60 or so students, all but 2 still did it.

In the Leaving Cert, I know it's not compulsory to take up a science subject but in my school it is. Most of us do 2 to be honest. But then again we don't really have a great choice(Have to pick three from the three sciences, Geography, History, Business and Art). Our labs are quite new but resources are still poor.


Everything varies between schools and teachers. Like in primary I did little or no religion (and Irish) and it was a CBS school. Whereas another school would spend 3 hours a week on religion.

My old secondary school changed recently so that Science and Business Studies are now optional. They have students just doing 10 subjects instead of the 11 I did, despite there being more subjects to choose from. Off the top of my head there are at least 5 of the Science teachers who were there when I was still there and I'm sure one of the 10 or so new teachers could do it.

To be honest one informal class per week with a teacher who gave a **** would be better than the current JC science course. It never quite gives enough information to be satisfactory and in a classroom setting it was always completely pointless asking a question from outside the syllabus. This was a teacher who retired then came back to do Chemistry after school for a couple of years due to demand being too low for a full timetabled class so I even the decent ones are very hemmed in by the syllabus.

As far as I'm concerned all the syllabi in the subjects I did at LC level were badly broken for various reasons but a shift in the attitude to dividing classes up would be required to begin to address any issues. The continuous assessment idea doesn't address things either, it just means that rather than learning to do well in an exam you learn to do well at a few little things spread out without needing to understand a whole lot.

equivariant

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

One hour a week? In a subject that also includes history and geography which also get an hour each? And 2.5 hours on religion apparently? I might employ a science tutor to go into his school for 2.5 hours a week to supervise him and teach him science, while the rest of the class have their heads filled with nonsense.

Good idea about the tutor!

kylith

Deleted User wrote: »

My old secondary school changed recently so that Science and Business Studies are now optional. They have students just doing 10 subjects instead of the 11 I did, despite there being more subjects to choose from. Off the top of my head there are at least 5 of the Science teachers who were there when I was still there and I'm sure one of the 10 or so new teachers could do it.

To be honest one informal class per week with a teacher who gave a **** would be better than the current JC science course. It never quite gives enough information to be satisfactory and in a classroom setting it was always completely pointless asking a question from outside the syllabus. This was a teacher who retired then came back to do Chemistry after school for a couple of years due to demand being too low for a full timetabled class so I even the decent ones are very hemmed in by the syllabus.

Too true! I'm still driven demented by a line in my JC science book; "Some water is not attracted by the moon, but repelled. We won't be going into that in this book". Is there anything worse for a young knowledge seeker to read than "Here's something really interesting, that we're not going to tell you about"?

I have to hand it to my secondary school though, despite being a convent school Chemistry, Physics, and Biology were all offered to LC, higher level and ordinary.

Zombrex

While I think it would be really good that a chid does a science subject, I would be opposed to the notion of forcing any child to do a subject for the LC because of the effect it could have on the LC.

I am dyslexic and I really struggled with languages. I would love to have been able to take the type to learn French properly, with the help of a teacher specialising in teaching dyslexic students. But that was just not possible in the structure of the LC. I did no language for LC other than Irish*, which ruled out a number of colleges for me. But I knew if I had done French or German it would have taken up so much time from my other subjects and probably still resulted in hardly any points. Not only would it have contributed nothing to getting to college, it would have taken time away from all my other subjects.

The issue is not science, it is the structure of the Leaving Cert and the points system. As it stands, in the current system, students should be given as much freedom to pick the subjects they want in order to set their own balance.



*don't get be starting about that f**king bulls**t, forcing a useless hobby language on students

Malari

We had all three sciences and two languages* available up to LC in our school. You had to take science to JC, and could not drop all three sciences or both languages in the senior cycle. I think it was a really good school. They taught Applied Maths after school for those who wanted to take it and facilitated the exams for others taking subjects outside the school.



*Not including Irish, obviously.

robindch

Zombrex wrote: »

I am dyslexic and I really struggled with languages.

Really? If so and based upon your postings here in A+A and elsewhere, I have to say you've overcome it with knobs on

Mark Hamill

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

One hour a week? In a subject that also includes history and geography which also get an hour each? And 2.5 hours on religion apparently? I might employ a science tutor to go into his school for 2.5 hours a week to supervise him and teach him science, while the rest of the class have their heads filled with nonsense.

Maybe you should approach other parents and see if they want their kids to join yours? You could spread the cost that way.

Zombrex

robindch wrote: »

Really? If so and based upon your postings here in A+A and elsewhere, I have to say you've overcome it with knobs on

Firefox spell check ftw

My English is pretty good. But after 12 years of Irish I can say about 2 words. And my French is about the same. My problem is I don't pick up languages based on the "sure you'll just pick it up as you go" principle. Immersing myself in the language doesn't help. Its very frustrating. At some point if I ever get the time I plan to try and learn French the way I go about learning a programming language, from first principles building up the language as I go. Just don't have the time at the moment, and certainly didn't have the time in school

spurious

Malari wrote: »

We had all three sciences and two languages* available up to LC in our school. You had to take science to JC, and could not drop all three sciences or both languages in the senior cycle. I think it was a really good school. They taught Applied Maths after school for those who wanted to take it and facilitated the exams for others taking subjects outside the school.



*Not including Irish, obviously.

Sounds like a good policy for a school to have. Unfortunately so much depends on staffing levels and allocations. I'm sure people outside education believe that if student numbers go up, they employ more teachers and are able to offer more choices.

However, the cutbacks and changing the goalposts re children needing extra help and the PTR in general means our school has 60 more children than we had five years ago and ten less full time teachers to provide the same subjects and choices. It's nigh on impossible without really large classes, or dropping subjects/levels.

Science hasn't been hit yet, but that's just the luck of the draw rather than policy.

KyussBishop

How powerful are the lobbyists that enforce Irish and Religion as part of the curriculum?

Considering the entire country is fully of both parents and students, who would want to discard with both and replace them with something more useful, it seems like an issue which could be made reach a tipping point, without too much effort.

Kiwi in IE

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

It seems as a parent here you cannot rely on the education system to inform and prepare your child properly at all. Clearly I am going to have to do science as homeschooling throughout primary school, teach critical thinking and proper ethics (as opposed to religious 'morals'), and become an expert on exactly what is needed for entry into which college course when he hits secondary school! Well I guess it's good I know that now as he is starting primary school rather than find out too late.

I might order the science text books used in the equivelant of junior and senior infants from NZ.

If you look at the actual report, Irish kids spend MORE time learning science than kids in New Zealand,
63 hours per year compared to 52 in NZ,

http://static.rasset.ie/documents/news/national-schools-international-contexts.pdf
Irish Kids also score better than average in science,

lazygal

KyussBishop wrote: »

How powerful are the lobbyists that enforce Irish and Religion as part of the curriculum?

Considering the entire country is fully of both parents and students, who would want to discard with both and replace them with something more useful, it seems like an issue which could be made reach a tipping point, without too much effort.

The dept. of ed. is notoriously conservative. I'd also imagine the teaching lobby are pretty happy with the status quo, plus most patrons are religious like bishops. The Irish lobby are powerful too, and link themselves to patriotism and keeping the language alive. Its not hard to see why change is slow.

KyussBishop

lazygal wrote: »

The dept. of ed. is notoriously conservative. I'd also imagine the teaching lobby are pretty happy with the status quo, plus most patrons are religious like bishops. The Irish lobby are powerful too, and link themselves to patriotism and keeping the language alive. Its not hard to see why change is slow.

That is pretty ingrained alright, but what is to stop (for example) a direct campaign by students/parents, to lobby against this, and even engaging directly with schools to remove their kids from Irish and Religion classes, and refusing to sit exams on Irish?

If it happened on a large enough scale, it would be pretty hard to fight against; you don't necessarily need government support, just create the pressure against them.
It (superficially) appears like something that would not take much momentum to get started, especially considering students would love to get rid of Irish in particular.

Sarky

Zombrex wrote: »

But after 12 years of Irish I can say about 2 words.

I wouldn't worry, most people who went through the Irish curriculum can't speak more than "Ciunas bothar calín bainne", and that's only because they saw it on an ad for alcohol.