Negotiating wage increase

Faith

I worked in a retail position for 4 years, in a family owned business. The entire time I worked there, I was paid minimum wage and got no benefits at all like holiday pay, overtime pay or time off in lieu/1.5 hrs for working bank holidays. I left last summer as I was moving abroad, but now I'm back and my boss wants me to come back for the summer season, which is the busy time. She told me that she desperately needs "senior staff" who are familiar with the place, presumably to take charge on the shop floor and supervise and train new employees. There are no official managers - you're either in the family, or you're just floor staff, but I would be essentially taking on elements of a managerial role.

I know that she needs me, much more than I need the job. I'd go back for a while if I got a fair wage increase to reflect my experience and seniority, but I've never even attempted to negotiate a wage increase before. What is the best way to approach such a situation, and should I suggest what I think a fair wage is, or let her make an offer?

drunkmonkey

Think of a fair figure and ask for it, its that simple. As it's a family business your not going to end up as a manager, you may have some of the duties but you won't be a fully fledged one so you can't really go asking for 30k.
Maybe 11/12ph would be ok, 15ph would be a stretch.

Moonbeam

They are legally required to pay holiday pay.
Go talk to them and I reckon 12 euro an hour is a good aim:)
Good luck

Faith

Moonbeam wrote: »

They are legally required to pay holiday pay.
Go talk to them and I reckon 12 euro an hour is a good aim:)
Good luck

I think they got around it because I was never a permanent employee, technically speaking. Although I believe that after 4 years in a job, you automatically become permanent?

I'm glad I asked now - I thought €10 ph was a good figure :cool:.

drunkmonkey

To be fair if your training staff and able to look after the place when there gone, 11/12 would be ok. I'd ask for €11.50 and see how it goes down.

orol221

Go for €12 and slowly decrease ... had been in similar situation started 19cents bellow min. wage after 1.5 year they had to pay me what they owed me on each hour.

Good Luck

tatli_lokma

I'd say look for about €11/12 which would be fair and more importantly make sure you are officially through the books, getting PAYE and PRSI paid and holiday pay. I actually think the official side of it is even more important than the hourly rate.

Tordelback

Statutory holiday pay is calculated on the basis of 8% of hours worked, to a maximum of 20 days a year. It has nothing to do with status of employment, as long as you were employed and not self-employed. Your employer has defrauded you and presumably many other employees of a significant amount of money, and has knowingly broken the law consistently over 4 years. They are effectively paying 8% under the minimum wage, or making you work 1 free hour in every 12.

Some facts: http://www.unionconnect.ie/rights/4/

If your pay negotiations go poorly, take them to the cleaners.

tatli_lokma

I would guess more that the reason why holiday pay wasn't paid is because the employment might not have been official.

OP - were you paying PRSI and PAYE and did you get a payslip with each wages? If not then you were probably working illegally.

Faith

Well, this is eye-opening. It's all entirely above board - I pay my taxes and PRSI contributions and got weekly wage slips, but I've never gotten any benefits like holiday pay or even extra pay/day off in lieu when I worked bank holidays. Not to mention working there for 4 years and never getting a penny over minimum wage...

I can't demand my holiday pay from the past 4 years, but I'll certainly bear it in mind this time around. I worked out that I should have been paid over €3,000 holiday pay over the years.

orol221

Faith wrote: »

Well, this is eye-opening. It's all entirely above board - I pay my taxes and PRSI contributions and got weekly wage slips, but I've never gotten any benefits like holiday pay or even extra pay/day off in lieu when I worked bank holidays. Not to mention working there for 4 years and never getting a penny over minimum wage...

I can't demand my holiday pay from the past 4 years, but I'll certainly bear it in mind this time around. I worked out that I should have been paid over €3,000 holiday pay over the years.

Try to visit Tax office and explain it to them ... If you have anything what will prove that you have been working there and you had no hols then you have nothing to lose.

drunkmonkey

Don't go anywhere near the tax office that's horrible thing to do without trying to come to an agreement with your employer first.
Faith have a world with your employer and bring up the holidays not paid etc, they'll know they've been dodging it and probably know they need to pay you something, they won't risk ending up in the labour court so you'll probably get some if not all of that 3k if your maths are correct.
I'm an employer and it hurst to pay people when there not there but the law is the law and your entitled to your holiday pay. Don't be afraid to stand up for your rights but only report your employer if all else fails.

Faith

Thanks all. I phoned the employment rights folk today, and they also recommended having a chat with my employer before doing anything. It's a HUGE can of worms to open and it's something i need to seriously think about. My employer is one of the most unapproachable people I've ever known, and this is a widely-held opinion. We (the floor staff) used hold whispered conferences amongst each other about how to approach her when someone even needed to ask for a day off, so it fills my heart with dread to think about asking her about something as big as this!

Regardless, thank you all so much for your replies. I'll update this thread if I decide to proceed .

Lisha

Hi op
I just wanted to wish you luck with this situation .
One thing that stood out for me was when you said about boss bring totally unapproachable . This is a form of intimidation it even bullying in a way . The person knows that if people are afraid to ask then the business gets away with murder .
So they do need you more than you need them. Be clear on what you want before you speak to them and he very firm on the facts of your rights. But most of all don't let them make you feel bad for standing up for yourself
Best if luck op

jamfer

You are not negotiating a wage increase as you are not an employee.

You say you don't need the job. So you aren't obligated to do anything for this woman.

You say that the boss is horrible and paint a very poor impression of daily life as an employee. You don't get any of your legal entitlements, you have no promotional prospects, you have to cow tow and beg for unpaid time off - am I reading you right?

Why would you even countenance working in such conditions?

If I were you I would approach it as follows: Firstly, you have nothing to lose (you say you don't need the job) so capitalise on that - don't mention a figure immediately, talk about the role, that you'll be running the show day to day, organising staff, ensuring things are getting done and customers are having their needs met, describe a managers role without mentioning the word manager. When she agrees that this is what she'll want you to do you then introduce the word supervisor, line manager, assistant manager whatever the role is called. Going rate for that appears to be €25 - €30k per year - €12 - €14 per hour in retail.

Now, why would you work for less in an environment where you are not appreciated?

If it were me I'd be adding a premium to compensate for the environment - bad boss & crappy conditions.

You need to place a value on your happiness and wellbeing. If you are going to be held accountable the I wouldn't be walking into such a bad environment with my eyes wide open unless I was being well compensated for it.

Finally, you can report the business to the proper authorities anonymously - why wouldn't you? You've already calculated that they bilked you out of €3,000.

Why are you protecting them? This is business, feelings, emotions and morals have no place. You can take their money as an employee and still report them. They are fully aware of what they should be paying their employees; do they appear to be upset about it?

If you are still undecided on how to approach this, just read drunkmonkeys post above for a view into an employer’s mentality. (S)he has read the illegal activity of your former employer but implores you not to do a horrible thing to them. Your former employer is not contributing, they are getting their employees to subsidise their profits. They are acting illegally. But that is ok for them. But you should not report them. That would be "horrible".

Faith

Thanks jamfer, that's a really excellent post. Unfortunately, you did read me correctly about all the negatives!

I thought I had included an update about my decision, but I must have forgotten. After a conversation with a friend who still works there out of necessity, she told me point blank not to go back and that the atmosphere is worse than ever in there (exacerbated by all the decent staff getting fed up and leaving due to the bad conditions). I could rant for days about the place, but suffice to say, I completely abandoned the idea of going back. No amount of money is worth it!