Junker advice for skills practice

quozl

I'm only cycling for a little under 6 weeks now so I'm trying to improve my bike handling skills as much as possible - for reasons of safety.

I've found various suggestions/drills online and I've been trying them out.

The problem is that I'm f*cking killing my expensive bike doing it! It's a nice new trek hybrid (7.5fx) and I've just broken the bloody deraileur hanger. The amount of spills I've had in the local school playground by this stage is fairly amusing but I'm aiming to have as many as necessary in there so as to avoid having them on the road.

Any advice on the cheapest, most resilient piece of crap bike I can buy to practice these sort of things on? I'm guessing that the deraileur hanger on my 1000 euro hybrid is going to cost more than it would on a junker - and even if they're all the same then I'm getting nervous for the actual deraileur itself and all the other bits that are getting rammed repeatedly into the ground.

Rothar have a 170 euro mountain bike that would fit me. Would that be a good idea? Would a MTB generally be tougher than a hybrid? Will I have trouble getting a junker like that repaired in my LBS - they're happy to fix the Trek they sold me, I don't know how LBSs view repairing bikes that they didn't sell.

Or should I just keep hammering the poor Trek? Is that actually the sensible option?

Help please!

redzerredzer

What exactly are these drills you are doing?
I don't think you should be coming off a bike so often unless its a bmx and you are 11.

smacl

My bike handling skills are pretty woeful. One thing that really me helped was a couple of mountain biking sessions. I'm crap at that too, but it really improves your ability to handle a bike, flat semi-paved glass strewn Irish roads seem a bit of a luxury after loose rocks and slippy tree roots.

cyclic

Cycle your nice bike where you need to get to on the road. Quit falling over in a field unless your some gnarly wanna be mountain biker. My four year old can ride a bike- it's not rocket science.

endacl

Serious question...

Six weeks since the first time you EVER sat on a bike?!? You spend a grand?!?

quozl

redzerredzer wrote: »

What exactly are these drills you are doing?
I don't think you should be coming off a bike so often unless its a bmx and you are 11.

You did get the bit about me never having ridden a bike before 5 1/2 weeks ago, right? The typical 11 year old would have vastly better bike handling skills than me...
As you're interested -
http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/page/latest-news/?id=89345#.UbePppVptRt
http://hammerdownmultisport.com/techniques-to-improve-road-bike-handling-skills/
for examples.

What I actually came off the bike today doing was right hand turning, while pedalling and signalling right in a playground. Yes. I came off doing that Would it be better that I came off doing that when I'm turning right in traffic, or while practicing in a playground?

cyclic wrote: »

Cycle your nice bike where you need to get to on the road. Quit falling over in a field unless your some gnarly wanna be mountain biker. My four year old can ride a bike- it's not rocket science.

Does your four year old ride his bike in traffic? I'm assuming no. I do, hence my desire to have better bike handling skills than I currently do and riding a bike in traffic is not the place to get them.

endacl wrote: »

Serious question...

Six weeks since the first time you EVER sat on a bike?!? You spend a grand?!?

That's a fair question. I honestly struggled over that.
The reasoning was:
It's 480 euro on the bike to work scheme to get a nice bike.
Getting a nice second hand bike would cost as much, I wouldn't know enough to know I was getting a reasonable deal, I wouldn't be sure it was in good nick and wouldn't be able to maintain it myself.
I also get 2 years free servicing with the new bike - something that as I'm a complete beginner has already proved invaluable!
If I was going to use my bike-to-work, I might as well use the full 1grand of it (480 euro cost to me) as I can only use it once every 5 years.

I think I'd still go with that approach if I was doing it again.

Right, any other random posters questions, or does anybody have any suggestions )

smacl

quozl wrote: »

You did get the bit about me never having ridden a bike before 5 1/2 weeks ago, right? The typical 11 would have vastly better bike handling skills than me...

Fair play for sticking with it. It's all as easy as riding a bike unless you never have done; new physical skills come much easier when you're younger. I wouldn't get too precious over the bike. Plenty of youtube videos to show how to fix any minor damage, and mid range hybrids like the trek are pretty robust.

petethedrummer

If you think you are going to do more damage than the price of a cheap bike, then get a cheap bike. None of us has a crystal ball to tell you how much you are gonna break.

You could try on adverts.ie or donedeal.ie for something cheap too. Sell it on after..... if it's still in one piece. :pac:

A rear derailler hanger is gonna be pretty much equally fragile* on any bike. So you could get a single speed (but not a fixie) bike or something old with a hub gears.

Or you could fall to your left. No hanger on that side!

But I'd just stick with the bike you have and take it very gingerly.


*Steel frame will be stronger.

quozl

smacl wrote: »

My bike handling skills are pretty woeful. One thing that really me helped was a couple of mountain biking sessions. I'm crap at that too, but it really improves your ability to handle a bike, flat semi-paved glass strewn Irish roads seem a bit of a luxury after loose rocks and slippy tree roots.

Did you hire or borrow the mountain bike? Where did you go - wicklow?

i71jskz5xu42pb

cyclic wrote: »

Cycle your nice bike where you need to get to on the road. Quit falling over in a field unless your some gnarly wanna be mountain biker. My four year old can ride a bike- it's not rocket science.

Indeed it's like.... it's like ... the phrase escapes me now, it's very easy anyway, and you'll never forget.

cyclic

Ok, fair enough. Don't spend money on a trash bike. Maybe get some practice/ confidence and experience on a cycling course- probably more entertaining then cycling around a field (unless you're a mountain biker).
http://www.cycletrainingireland.com/
http://www.rothar.ie/cycling_classes.htm
Probably loads more, or get a mate to take you out.

quozl

Thanks Cyclic. I've done 2 lessons with Rothar - the one that started me off and a recent one in traffic. Both excellent. I've also cycled 20+K to stepaside and back on my own.

But I still wobble some times when signalling right!

I'd also say the chances of me successfully swerving out of the way if someone turned a car through me are woefully poor - I'd probably instead do the classic newbie mistake of steering towards the object because I turned the handlebars away.
These pretty basic skills are not unconcious to me yet. I want them to be and you learn really little actually cycling places as it's mostly just easy straight line peddling. I'm already reasonably fit, I'm just woefully unskilled

The consensus seems to be to stick with the Trek and not waste money on a junker. That's good to know, thanks all.

studiorat

I was reading your other thread. 6 weeks on the bike and you feel the need to buy another. Fair play to ya, you've come to the right place!

I'd look at another bike. I reckon the brake levers on the Trek are expensive to replace if you keep dropping it. I guess €170 is alright since the bike from Rothar is probably gonna be serviced to some extent. But it's goint to be a mountain bike in name only.

If you were looking at dropping €200 or so, you could look out for a cheap dirt jumper. They are single speed and usually built like a tank. Like a BMX but bigger. They are really great fun to mess around on and perfect for the skills you are looking at in those links. You'l knacker yourself if you try and cycle to Stepaside on it though. Good luck.

HivemindXX

quozl wrote: »

What I actually came off the bike today doing was right hand turning, while pedalling and signalling right in a playground. Yes. I came off doing that Would it be better that I came off doing that when I'm turning right in traffic, or while practicing in a playground?

I don't think you should be crashing your bike that often to be honest. It is possible you are trying to do things that most people don't. For example, I rarely if ever actually turn while signalling, generally I signal and when I see that traffic is yielding and/or knows what I'm up to I put my hand back on the bars and make the turn.

It might seem like a crazy idea but think about finding a club that does leisurely tea & cakes rides and go along. You'll see what other people actually do when cycling and probably get good advice.

Bear in mind if there is something you don't feel competent to do safely you always have the option of stopping and converting in to a pedestrian for a bit. If you are not happy making a right turn across two lanes of traffic or navigating a multi-lane roundabout just walk across until your confidence / skill increases.

studiorat

HivemindXX wrote: »

For example, I rarely if ever actually turn while signalling, generally I signal and when I see that traffic is yielding and/or knows what I'm up to I put my hand back on the bars and make the turn.

This is very true! That could be the proper way to do it anyway.

BofaDeezNuhtz

pmsl...


just fpmsl...

mirrormatrix

quozl wrote: »

As you're interested -
http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/page/latest-news/?id=89345#.UbePppVptRt
http://hammerdownmultisport.com/techniques-to-improve-road-bike-handling-skills/
for examples.

You don't really need half of the drills you're posting here. Ankle grabs? Shoulder bumping? Never done half of the drills on that first link in my life. You'll certainly never need them for commuting.

Just had a quick look at the Trek online. I think part of your problem is the skinny tyres. Bad idea for your first bike. I don't know how wide a tyre your current wheels will take but i'd certainly suggest getting something as wide as possible, with hybrid instead of slick tyres.

If you are getting another cheap bike, get a MTB. Much easier to balance on and would give you the confidence you need to get back on the hybrid bike.

endacl

mirrormatrix wrote: »

You don't really need half of the drills you're posting here. Ankle grabs? Shoulder bumping? Never done half of the drills on that first link in my life. You'll certainly never need them for commuting.

Just had a quick look at the Trek online. I think part of your problem is the skinny tyres. Bad idea for your first bike. I don't know how wide a tyre your current wheels will take but i'd certainly suggest getting something as wide as possible, with hybrid instead of slick tyres.

If you are getting another cheap bike, get a MTB. Much easier to balance on and would give you the confidence you need to get back on the hybrid bike.

Fat tyres easier to balance on? Unless they're a foot wide this makes no sense. Might as well suggest learning on a unicycle because it'll seem so much easier when the OP goes back to two wheels. Forward motion keeps upright. And balance at slow speeds. Mostly forward though...

quozl

Thanks for the advice everybody.

I was pretty bloody frustrated last night but only 25 quid for a derailleur hanger and I'm back commuting to work.

and

Suzuki_TL1000R wrote: »

pmsl...

just fpmsl...

This is kind of my reaction too :P I'm swinging between amusement and frustration on a day to day basis but I'm getting there

endacl

quozl wrote: »

I'm swinging between amusement and frustration on a day to day basis but I'm getting there

If you're still upright when you get there, you got there.



Oh, and that unicycle thing I recommended. Bad idea. Don't do that.

mirrormatrix

endacl wrote: »

Fat tyres easier to balance on? Unless they're a foot wide this makes no sense. Might as well suggest learning on a unicycle because it'll seem so much easier when the OP goes back to two wheels. Forward motion keeps upright. And balance at slow speeds. Mostly forward though...

Agreed, forward motion will keep you upright at speed. But as you said, balance is key at slow speeds. That's the point I was making. You try a track stand (or any other low speed bike skill, indicating etc.) with a road bike vs a MTB and tell me it's not easier to balance on the MTB.

mirv

Between the two links you posted and the mentions of counter steering on your training log I think you're over thinking the issue of practice and you're trying too hard. Just ride your bike and the skills will come. Unless you're particularly challenged with balance or coordination issues simply going for rides will help more than drills would.

You're going for commutes and relatively slow rides, not cornering in a race while simultaneously reaching for a bottle while tightening your shoe buckle.

Counter steering is barely perceptible on a bicycle, especially at the low speeds you'll get up to in a playground - a bicycle is so light you can lean it over quite easily unlike a motorbike where counter steer is necessary to iniate a turn as the bike is heavier than the rider.

mirv

quozl wrote: »

I'd also say the chances of me successfully swerving out of the way if someone turned a car through me are woefully poor - I'd probably instead do the classic newbie mistake of steering towards the object because I turned the handlebars away.
These pretty basic skills are not unconcious to me yet. I want them to be and you learn really little actually cycling places as it's mostly just easy straight line peddling. I'm already reasonably fit, I'm just woefully unskilled

Again, I think you're over complicating your learning process by getting overly technical and thinking it through too much.

In order to turn left (say to dodge an oncoming car in the middle of the road, or at a junction/crossroads), you only need a 0.1% flick of the handlebars to the right in order to bring your center of gravity to the left while leaning your body left, before controlling 99.9% of the rest of the turn, by turning the handlebars to the left.

This should become muscle memory or habit, rather than an a motion that you have to actively remember and go through step by step for each turn.

Yes your body would fall towards an oncoming object if you steer away from it, but ONLY if you sit bolt upright without leaning into the turn. The chances are that if you sit bolt upright without leaning as you steer (whether you steer away or towards the object), you'll end up falling on the ground due to losing your balance. Steering towards an oncoming object is simply suicidal.

For example - stand up on your two feet, and then lift your left foot up and then read the spoiler.

If you're still standing up and not in a heap on the floor, it's because you have leaned to the right slightly once you lifted your left foot up. Turning on a bike whether it's an emergency or not should require about this much thought and it'll come eventually, but only if you try not to overthink things.

smacl

quozl wrote: »

Did you hire or borrow the mountain bike? Where did you go - wicklow?

I bought a really crappy 2nd hand MTB in my LBS, and went out with the ThinkBike club up to three rock. Came back slightly bloody and bruised, but absolutely great craic, and I now have no great fear of crap surfaces or bits of gravel. Bike wasn't really up to it, would advise renting something fit for purpose.

You can get beginner lessons including bike here; http://www.biking.ie/mountain-bike-training-in-ireland Must actually do some more of this myself some time.

I've also brought the hybrid out on a number of coilte fire roads, and been MTBing with the brother in-law, who's pretty experienced. All good stuff, technically challenging with no traffic risk.

Coronal

mirrormatrix wrote: »

Agreed, forward motion will keep you upright at speed. But as you said, balance is key at slow speeds. That's the point I was making. You try a track stand (or any other low speed bike skill, indicating etc.) with a road bike vs a MTB and tell me it's not easier to balance on the MTB.

Is that not because of the width of the handlebars?

OP, I was in the same boat as you, learning as an adult. Once you're safe enough to indicate and not fall off, you're fine. If you have problems at big junctions, always remember that you can pull in and cross as a pedestrian. Practicing the skills from those links is something I'm getting around to now, 5 years later, since I'm doing a lot more MTBing as well as road cycling. Just enjoy it

(of course, if you happen to enjoy practicing those skills, go for it, I just mean that it's not necessary!)

quozl

mirv wrote: »

you only need a 0.1% flick of the handlebars to the right in order to bring your center of gravity to the left while leaning your body left, before controlling 99.9% of the rest of the turn, by turning the handlebars to the left.

This should become muscle memory or habit, rather than an a motion that you have to actively remember and go through step by step for each turn.

That's kind of the point though - it becomes muscle memory by practice. Most cyclists did all that practice while playing as kids.

I don't do the tiny flick to the right to go left automatically - in fact the natural response (from my own experience and google/books) is to turn the handle-bars away from the object you want to avoid. Which is exactly wrong and sends you towards it.

I think you might be underestimating how much experienced cyclists do unconciously and that I simply don't do.
For example, last Thursday night I turned around when someone beeped loudly to find an idiot tail-gating me at arms reach - he wasn't happy that I wasn't gutter hugging enough for him. I got a surprise and swerved a bit, so he hit me.

I can go in a straight line or turn just fine when everything's easy and calm, but I'd like to have better basic competence when things aren't, and I see no way to do that other than to practice by making things slightly difficult for myself in a safe environment.

I'd wager that almost every cyclist who learnt as a kid did something similar - it was just that it was fun at the time. I'm actually really enjoying it myself and don't give a sod about falling off my bike - I'm resilient and I'm not going very fast. I just want to minimise the financial costs

endacl

quozl wrote: »

That's kind of the point though - it becomes muscle memory by practice. Most cyclists did all that practice while playing as kids.

I don't do the tiny flick to the right to go left automatically - in fact the natural response (from my own experience and google/books) is to turn the handle-bars away from the object you want to avoid. Which is exactly wrong and sends you towards it.

I think you might be underestimating how much experienced cyclists do unconciously and that I simply don't do.
For example, last Thursday night I turned around when someone beeped loudly to find an idiot tail-gating me at arms reach - he wasn't happy that I wasn't gutter hugging enough for him. I got a surprise and swerved a bit, so he hit me.

I can go in a straight line just fine when everything's easy and calm, but I'd like to have better basic competence when things aren't, and I see no way to do that other than to practice by making things slightly difficult for myself in a safe environment.

I'd wager that almost every cyclist who learnt as a kid did something similar - it was just that it was fun at the time. I'm actually really enjoying it myself and don't give a sod about falling off my bike - I'm resilient and I'm not going very fast. I just want to minimise the financial costs

Sorry. Couldn't resist...

http://www.eztrainingwheels.com/?s=adult

quozl

endacl wrote: »

Sorry. Couldn't resist...

http://www.eztrainingwheels.com/?s=adult

LOL :P I'll take road-rash anyday.

quozl

smacl wrote: »

You can get beginner lessons including bike here; http://www.biking.ie/mountain-bike-training-in-ireland Must actually do some more of this myself some time.

This is perfect, thank you

mirv

quozl wrote: »

I don't do the tiny flick to the right to go left automatically - in fact the natural response (from my own experience and google/books) is to turn the handle-bars away from the object you want to avoid. Which is exactly wrong and sends you towards it.

The natural response of steering away is absolutely fine as long as you lean away from the object coming at you - which is also a natural response - consider running around the corners of a football pitch, you lean as you turn, otherwise you'd fall over. The counter steering is almost imperceptible and even if you are experienced you can barely notice it during normal turning, that's why I said it's about 0.1% of the movement.

My main point was that when you turn, you lean and as a beginner you don't need to know much further than that. Most utility or even leisure cyclists won't be familiar with the concepts of counter steering in a formal sense as it's very much hidden in within all the other sensory feedback. Thinking about it only muddies the waters as you learn how to do other much more important basics such as ride while indicating, changing lanes, and looking behind your shoulder.

Even if you don't counter steer, a bicycle is light enough to lean with your bodyweight to turn, and if you are really trying to avoid a suddenly oncoming object you just turn and lean away from it quite forcefully just as you would do if you were running and dodging an object.

quozl

Mirv, all the expert advice I can find says to practice basic bike handling skills when learning how to use a bike. My most recent fall was practicing signalling while turning, I've done very little practicing counter-steering though I do intend to do more when I'm better at simpler skills.

For example - http://bicycledriving.org/skills (they refer to counter-steering turns as 'quick turns' in the same way as the American League of Bicyclists do), Cycle-craft (the UK book by the co-author of UK Bikeability national training scheme), http://www.bikexprt.com/streetsmarts/usa/chapter5a.htm, and tonnes more.

Cycle-craft is explicit that these are skills you should be competent with before cycling in traffic. There's other basics like rock-dodging (so I can go around small potholes and bits of glass without swerving) and un-weighting your front wheel (to make it safer going over pot-holes)

I'm already cycling in traffic and I'm no-where near competent at them, so we're already meeting half-way between what the recommendations are and what you're suggesting

I appreciate that you mean well but you're contradicting all the professional advice that I can find, so I'm going to stick with practicing them. Besides, it's fun.

John_C

When I was a teenager I remember practising looking over my right shoulder while keeping the bike straight. I'd go to a quiet road with a while line down the middle, cycle just to the left of the line and look over my shoulder. When I started at it, I always ended up a yard or so to the right of the line but I kept at it until I could look behind me without the bike veering.

GTDolanator

If you want a banger to ''practice'' on head over to the bike institue on lower dorset st. Sean will have something for you for under a ton wont be pretty but will be perfect for your current needs

smacl

I only started cycling again a few years ago after more than 20 years away from the bike, and found I had to relearn a bunch of skills. Also did the quiet road thing practising looking over my shoulder, signalling etc... and then with the road bike getting used to drop bars, getting the water bottle in and out while moving, and getting stuff from my pockets, not to mention discovering the joy of clipless pedals. None of it came that natural, and it all took a lot of repetition.

For me, the most important one for traffic is being able look over your shoulder, still couldn't tell you what counter steering is about and have no particular interest in finding out.

GTDolanator

In relation to your practicing cycling just get out there and get the miles up,and dont be afraid of cars the worst motorist/pedestrian/cyclist out thier are hesistant ones IMO.

BofaDeezNuhtz

quozl wrote: »

This is kind of my reaction too :P I'm swinging between amusement and frustration on a day to day basis but I'm getting there

Ahh Im sorry man but fairplay for having a sense of humour about it

smacl wrote: »

For me, the most important one for traffic is being able look over your shoulder,
still couldn't tell you what counter steering is about and have no particular interest in finding out.

Yer doin' it everytime you turn or move your bike left/right once your rolling along over a few kph

GTDolanator wrote: »

If you want a banger to ''practice'' on head over to the bike institue on lower dorset st. Sean will have something for you for under a ton wont be pretty but will be perfect for your current needs

This is good advice tbh.
Nobodies mentioned yet that your 7.5FX has a Carbon fork and if your hitting the
deck alot you could be heading for trouble if you end up riding along with a damaged
fork unknown to yourself. CF doesnt like been smacked around alot.
Get a junker for practice, then just resell it for the same money when your done!

studiorat

Excuse for buying more bikes. Never a bad thing!

MB Lacey

Bike week is next week, they have a 2 hour session for beginner cyclists you might want to go along to?

http://www.bikeweek.ie/events/dublin/pedal-park

valleyoftheunos

OP I think you ought to ditch the drills and just keep getting out there. Things like touching your ankle and so on aren't things any cyclist needs to be able to do. Similarly you won't find yourself, signaling, turning and peddling all at the same time, its not necessary and too complicated, I wouldn't do it myself all that often. much easiee to break maneuvers down, pedal, signal, turn, pedal would be a lot more manageable and just as effective.

The other thing I would say is that cycling around a playground isn't going to do you much good if it is the traffic that is causing you real difficulties when out on the road. Be confident and decisive on the road and you will have less trouble. Never think that a motorist has more right to a piece of road than you do, nowhere does it say you have to hug the kerb or cycle in the gutter. If any motorist suggest you should tell 'em where to go.;)