Benjen Stark?? (Potential Spoilers)

GetInTheHole!

One thing that still bugs me is the fate of Benjen Stark.

Although referred to early on in the books / tv series - we just don't get any confirmation later on if he is dead or still alive?

For a long time - I thought he would have a great role to play but now I'm not so sure..

Does anybody have any theories of their own??

BTW - I've read all the books but please apply spoilers where necessary.

The Pheasant

Yeah I think he could definitely be a character that could resurface in one form or another - doubtful GRRM would just forget about him

thegreatiam

I dont see him coming back,

not as himself anyway

cold hands

or some other similar twist.

He may play a part in the white walker battle if they do move south past the wall.

Personally I think the story may come to some head when danny invades in the south, a big tussle for the fight to the throne interrupted with the white walker invasion.

ending in danny and jon snow marrying as it turns out jon is robert b's bastard through neds sister and heir.

thegreatiam

GetInTheHole! wrote: »

Tyrion has some connection as well - perhaps as the bastard son of the Mad King and Twyin Lannisters wife. This oculd also explain why Twyin despises him so much..

I think if that were the case then tywin would have killed him already.
The only thing that im sure of is that he is definitely tywin's son, (or tywin believes he is his son) because tywin holds family above all else, if there was even a hint that tyrion wasnt family he'd be dead. he despises him cos his wife died giving birth to a freak, he tolerates him because he is blood

This could be a good debate, do we need the spoiler tags for everything? will be a dark thread otherwise

The Pheasant

thegreatiam wrote: »

cold hands

Oh yeah...I'd forgotten about that! Such a huge series I find they all just kind of melt into eachother and you forget things

I think that could be a good call

Michael D Not Higgins

thegreatiam wrote: »

cold hands

That's what I thought when I read it

but surely Bran would have recognised him. They still look like the men they were before.

Sleepy

(book spoilers ahoy)

I reckon it's quite possible we'll see him

on Skagos with Rickon and Osha

.

thegreatiam - I think your part right:

But Jon is almost certainly the product of Rhaegar and Lyana, there's just too much foreshadowing for it not to be true. This doesn't cause a problem with them marrying in Westeros even though it would make her his Aunt... the Targaryens have always practiced bigamous incest. The bigamy could be important too: the Kingsguard being at the Tower of Joy means that it's likely Lyana was Rhaegar's second wife by this point in which case Jon is the rightful heir (son of the Crown Prince having a better claim to the throne than a princess under the mysoginistic laws of the time)

thegreatiam

tbh, im not 100% convinced on that theory, as they seem to have dropped him from the tv show (didnt see ep 10 yet, but i dont think he is there.

he could show up next season with bran tho.

Sleepy

The TV series has Osha and Rickon heading for Last Hearth. Maybe they intend to cut out Skagos in it's entirety. TV Rickon is nowhere near as feral as the character in the books so it might seem prudent to just go their own course with him...

thegreatiam

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

That's what I thought when I read it

but surely Bran would have recognised him. They still look like the men they were before.

cloaked and hooded, barely speaks. could be enough to disguise him.

I cant remember if we see his face in the book

Sleepy wrote: »

(book spoilers ahoy)


thegreatiam - I think your part right:

But Jon is almost certainly the product of Rhaegar and Lyana, there's just too much foreshadowing for it not to be true. This doesn't cause a problem with them marrying in Westeros even though it would make her his Aunt... the Targaryens have always practiced bigamous incest. The bigamy could be important too: the Kingsguard being at the Tower of Joy means that it's likely Lyana was Rhaegar's second wife by this point in which case Jon is the rightful heir (son of the Crown Prince having a better claim to the throne than a princess under the mysoginistic laws of the time)

change marry to team up with.

but Dany could use jon's more valid claim to secure her crowning if they did marry. I dont see jon wanting to be king, but dany defo has her sights on it.
Jon's claim is only valid if he is legitimised. as a bastard he has no claim whatsoever.

Michael D Not Higgins

thegreatiam wrote: »

cloaked and hooded, barely speaks. could be enough to disguise him.

I cant remember if we see his face in the book

Ah yes he wears a scarf covering his face, but

doesn't Leaf say he was killed long ago?

thegreatiam

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

Ah yes he wears a scarf covering his face, but

doesn't Leaf say he was killed long ago?

cant really remember, but I don't think its definitive. could easily be written round.

maybe the spirit was killed long ago, but the body it inhabits is fresh.

Mr.Prodston

I don't know what we're spoilering about

:pac:

thegreatiam

Mr.Prodston wrote: »

I don't know what we're spoilering about

:pac:

lol

I ve been laughing here cos some of the stuff we've discussed isnt even in the book and we have still spoilerd it

Mr.Prodston

Sleepy wrote: »

(book spoilers ahoy)

I reckon it's quite possible we'll see him

on Skagos with Rickon and Osha

.

That's an interesting one, is there anything you base it on other than a hunch?

I thought for a long time that he was Coldhands, but now I'm not so sure. He certainly will have a role somewhere

Sleepy

thegreatiam wrote: »

change marry to team up with.

but Dany could use jon's more valid claim to secure her crowning if they did marry. I dont see jon wanting to be king, but dany defo has her sights on it.
Jon's claim is only valid if he is legitimised. as a bastard he has no claim whatsoever.

If

Rhaegar had married Lyanna, Jon would be legitimate. I can see no other reason for the addition of bygamy to the backstory of the Targaryens if not to set this up.

It's also a nice twist that when even Jon himself makes a great deal of his "bastard" nature, he in fact is not only legitimate but the crown prince. Cliché perhaps, but done well here imo.

And we all know it's the King who doesn't want to rule who makes the best ruler - it's been a trope of literature since Plato.

Mr.Prodston wrote: »

That's an interesting one, is there anything you base it on other than a hunch?

I thought for a long time that he was Coldhands, but now I'm not so sure. He certainly will have a role somewhere

Pure and simply it's a hunch. It's one of the few places north of the wall we've not seen a lot of and he just seems too significant a character to kill off without us witnessing it (or at least seeing the body).

thegreatiam

where is that quote from? regarding jon? I havent seen that before.

My theory is that he is the bastard son of Robert baratheon and ned's sister, the targarean and ned's sister.

hence why he looks like ned, ned was prepared to raise him as his own etc. I dont think Robert knew.

But, just a theory. I havent really read any of the wiki's or other stories outside of the main books so i dont know if it is even possible.

Although didnt robert claim she was raped by the targaraen? so if jon is the child of that then he is still illegitimate.

ibarelycare

I think the theory that

Benjen is Coldhands

is just too obvious. It's probably something that crossed most people's minds when reading, and it's a huge theory online. I do hope he has some part to play, it's a nice thought that he might be with Rickon and Osha, since we have no idea what's happening with them!

Mr.Prodston

Sleepy wrote: »

Pure and simply it's a hunch. It's one of the few places north of the wall we've not seen a lot of and he just seems too significant a character to kill off without us witnessing it (or at least seeing the body).

Fair enough, that's an aspect of the TWOW that I'm really looking forward to. We've heard bits and pieces about Skagos but fitting it into Davos' story will be a treat.

Where does Benjen lie in terms of succession of Winterfell? Presumably he'd be next after any of the Stark children if they were all to come to untimely ends, without bearing offspring. Which is unlikely even with the track record.

Ahem, nothing to see there, let's just move along :pac:

Michael D Not Higgins

Mr.Prodston wrote: »

Where does Benjen lie in terms of succession of Winterfell? Presumably he'd be next after any of the Stark children if they were all to come to untimely ends, without bearing offspring. Which is unlikely even with the track record.

He's a man of the Night's Watch so he doesn't have any claim to Winterfell.

Mr.Prodston

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

He's a man of the Night's Watch so he doesn't have any claim to Winterfell.

Absolute brain fart there :pac:

Did we actually find out why he was in the NW? Was it just because there was a history of Stark's being in the NW or something sinister, I always assumed it was the prior.

ADWD spoiler

I think he'll end up being in the cave Bran is in to be honest.

thegreatiam

Mr.Prodston wrote: »

Absolute brain fart there :pac:

Did we actually find out why he was in the NW? Was it just because there was a history of Stark's being in the NW or something sinister, I always assumed it was the prior.

3rd son. Generally nothing much for them to do. they can still gain honour in the nights watch and rise up the ranks. It is almost the same honour that the first son would have by being heir.
Plus the history of the starks and the watch. down south they aim for honour as a kingsguard or as a tourny knight.

as far as his succession to winterfell goes, he may be nights watch but stannis has proven that means diddly squat when it comes down to it.
so he would be after neds kids. Not sure if he would be before the girls tho.

I think if they are married their husband can make the claim, if they are unmarried they have no claim.

that is why sansa is valuable and

the fake arya wedding

Mr.Prodston

Just to add more weight to Sleepy's Skagos theory I was looking at the geography of things and IF Benjen had ventured east to the coast he could have hopped on a boat and potentially made it there, assuming storms and what not didn't get him.

Trying to remember these things without looking them up is a recipe for disaster but in ADWD wasn't there

some shenanigans going on up in the east beyond the wall, where Jon was looking to rescue wildlings? Benjen could have been there, or left something in his wake?

Either, way I'm now going to waste an hour looking up theories on the interwebs :pac:

Sleepy

thegreatiam wrote: »

where is that quote from? regarding jon? I havent seen that before.

My theory is that he is the bastard son of Robert baratheon and ned's sister, the targarean and ned's sister.

hence why he looks like ned, ned was prepared to raise him as his own etc. I dont think Robert knew.

But, just a theory. I havent really read any of the wiki's or other stories outside of the main books so i dont know if it is even possible.

Although didnt robert claim she was raped by the targaraen? so if jon is the child of that then he is still illegitimate.

R+L=J is amongst the most popular theories about ASOIAF on the net.

Lyanna is a given as his mother "you may not have my name, but you have my blood" - Ned Stark, Ned's promise to Lyanna on her bed of blood in the Tower of Joy etc. etc.

If Jon was fathered by Robert rather than Rhaegar, why would Ned have hid Jon's parentage from Robert? He's kept him hidden in plain sight by naming Jon his own bastard rather than risk his friend murdering his nephew (as we saw in GOT, Robert had no problem ordering Viscerys and Daenarys killed and saw Clegane's actions with Elia as badly carried out but a necessary part of ending Targaryen rule).

The duty of the Kingsguard is to protect the Royal Family and the Royal Family only - ergo Lyanna and her offspring must have been of the Targaryen line as they were her guard at the Tower of Joy when Ned, Howland Reed et all defeated them.

Finally: why else would GRRM have included bigamy as a normal practice of the Targaryens if not to allow a way for Jon to be legitimate?

Sleepy

IIRC, the area

Jon was sending ships to in ADWD was Hardhome which would appear to be just around the corner from Skagos though Jon was sending those ships after Wildlings who had refused his earlier deal so it would seem unlikely that if Benjen was there at the same time as them he'd have survived it.

My hunch is that he'd have gone that direction earlier and was later found by Osha and Rickon when they arrived.

Mr.Prodston

A theory I've found, which can be filed under "Crackpot" is that

The Others have captured him and are going to use him in someway Stark/NW connection to bring down the wall

While I'm not sure about that, what it did jog in my mind was that GRRM said that we'd be going even further north beyond the wall in TWOW.

That could apply to Bran but it could indeed involve Benjen. His route back to the Wall could have been blocked by all the wildlings so perhaps he just headed north due to some un-known motivation. That's probably just as crackpot though.

beardedmaster

People who are talking about ADWD

Jon possibly being the legitimate heir - you're forgetting that Aegon, Rhaegar's son by Elia, is still alive and is older than Jon, so he is the rightful heir. However, "a dragon needs three heads" - so I think Dany's three dragons will be ridden by her, Aegon and Jon.

Duckworth_Luas

beardedmaster wrote: »

People who are talking about ADWD

Jon possibly being the legitimate heir - you're forgetting that Aegon, Rhaegar's son by Elia, is still alive and is older than Jon, so he is the rightful heir. However, "a dragon needs three heads" - so I think Dany's three dragons will be ridden by her, Aegon and Jon.

Who is to say that this Aegon is really Rhaegar's son. He may have been inspired by Perkin Warbeck, who showed up in Cork claiming to be the murdered son of King Edward IV, or Lambert Simnel, who showed up in Dublin claiming to be that king's nephew.

beardedmaster

Duckworth_Luas wrote: »

Who is to say that this Aegon is really Rhaegar's son. He may have been inspired by Perkin Warbeck, who showed up in Cork claiming to be the murdered son of King Edward IV, or Lambert Simnel, who showed up in Dublin claiming to be that king's nephew.

I think it's true simply because of

Varys. The man's motto is pretty much "For the Realm". I can't see him being involved in something like that which is a pure fallacy, like claiming that a fake Aegon is actually Aegon. Likewise, Jon Connington. He was Rhaegar's best friend, and would recognise Aegon as being his son - and wouldn't spend his life looking after him if it was all a ploy (also the fact that he's got a limited lifespan now, because of the greyscale [alá Dumbledore and the curse that was slowly creeping up his arm, killing him, so he sacrificed himself], so I can see him more than likely sacrificing himself for Aegon at some point, as he's going to die anyway.) Plus the fact that Aegon has the Targaryen eyes - not something easy to find, especially on a "Pisswater Prince".

However, you do raise a good point with your historical example - GRRM likes to reference some historical events like that sometimes. Another point which goes against Aegon's legitimacy is the fact that Dany is told to beware "Kraken and Dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun’s son and the mummer’s dragon. Trust none of them.", and something about a "cloth dragon" too.

Or perhaps Aegon is a true dragon, and he's being called a "mummer's dragon" in reference to Varys, who travelled with a troupe of mummers.

beardedmaster

beardedmaster wrote: »

Another point which goes against Aegon's legitimacy is the fact that Dany is told to beware "Kraken and Dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun’s son and the mummer’s dragon. Trust none of them.", and something about a "cloth dragon" too.

Again with the spoilers...

Kraken= Victarion, Dark Flame could be Blackfyre (illegitimate Targaryen lines), Lion obv Lannister, Griffin would be Connington. Sun's son = Quentyn Martel and Mummers Dragon would probably be Aegon. Mummer or not he has an Army

Mickeroo

I didn't think

Aegon was older than Jon? Though he was only like 12 whereas Jon is in his later teens?

Michael D Not Higgins

Mickeroo wrote: »

I didn't think

Aegon was older than Jon? Though he was only like 12 whereas Jon is in his later teens?

Spoiler for spoiler's sake

Well he was a baby during the sack of KL and Jon Snow was conceived during that war so I'd say they're close in age but Aegon is older.

beardedmaster

Deleted User wrote: »

Again with the spoilers...

Kraken= Victarion, Dark Flame could be Blackfyre (illegitimate Targaryen lines), Lion obv Lannister, Griffin would be Connington. Sun's son = Quentyn Martel and Mummers Dragon would probably be Aegon. Mummer or not he has an Army

Aye, thought those ones were relatively obvious, but also, you're right thinking

Dark Flame is Blackfyre, but maybe it could be a reference to the Golden Company either, as they were involved heavily with the Blackfyres... it's a bit of a long shot, but still....

Mr.Prodston

If anyone is using the mobile version of this page they'll have a fit considering there's so many

spoilers

Just like most debates it has turned into a

R + L = J

and I'm fed up with it. It's obvious that

Benjen is the father and he rode Lyanna, but it's ok as we have established that incest is grand

:pac:

Mickeroo

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

Spoiler for spoiler's sake

Well he was a baby during the sack of KL and Jon Snow was conceived during that war so I'd say they're close in age but Aegon is older.

Don't know why I never copped that before, 2+2=4 after all.

Gbear

Given that Benjen is a man of the NW

I can't understand why he'd leg it to Skagos. Starks don't set aside duty lightly. I reckon he's dead (because there doesn't always have to be some crazy explanation), prisoner of the Others (because of the Starks affinity for the North and being former Kings of the North) or he's doing something that involves Bloodraven and the Children of the Forest.

Witcher

The 'dark flame'

is probably Moqorro..he's travelling with Victarion the 'kraken' and the crew of the Iron Victory call him 'black flame'.

beardedmaster

Blay - jaypers, that's quare obvious! Thanks for pointing that out.