LCU AGM

cdeb

The motions are -

St. Benildus C.C.

1. Rule 7.4.d change. 'Division Six: Each player shall receive one hour thirty minutes for all his moves.

2. Junior teams should have the option of playing all league games on Saturday afternoons.
A junior team is one which has in its declared panel ( as per leagues rule 6.4 ) three or more players aged 18 or under as at 1 September, the start of the league season. Such a declaration must be made in advance of the league fixtures being published.

3. That the LCU committee canvas interest among member clubs for a rated one-hour league (an Intermediate Division ) with the following rules -
- No rating restrictions.
- Time control of 60 minutes per player.
- Teams to consist of 4 players.
- Any player declared as a player in this division can also be declared on a team in a higher division.
- The Intermediate Division is a stand alone division with no relegation/promotion to any other division.
- Games shall take place on clubs' regular nights.

4. (a) League controller or division controllers shall contact all club secretaries at the start of August to invite teams to confirm, prior to publication of the league fixtures, their entry into the divisions for which they qualified at the end of the previous season, and whether or not they intend to declare Junior Team status (pending the previous rule passing). Should a team outside the bottom division withdraw from the leagues or opt for relegation, a replacement team shall be inserted in the following order of preference -
1) The team finishing third in the division immediately below in the prior season shall be promoted.
2) The team finishing second from bottom in the same division in the prior season shall avoid relegation.
3) The team finishing fourth in the division immediately below in the prior season shall be promoted.
4) The team finishing bottom in the same division in the prior season shall avoid relegation.
5) The team finishing fifth, and so on down the way to tenth, in the division immediately below in the prior season shall be promoted.
6) No team may be promoted two or more divisions.

4(b) that rule 3.4 be amended as follows; 'in the event that a club withdraws from the league after the league fixtures have been published a replacement team shall be selected at the discretion of the committee'.

5. That the opening sentence of rule 6.1 be amended as follows: all players who play more than one game in the leagues shall be registered with the ICU.

6. The groups for the various Cup competitions (Branagan, William Brennan and Killane) be limited to a maximum of four teams.

Bray/Greystones C.C.
Change to LCU Leagues rule 2: Match fixtures should be set by a controller so that the first team of the club does not play on the same date as the second team nor the second team on the same date as the third.. etc.

Curragh C. C.
Each home team in the Bodley Cup can choose to set clocks from 60 up to 90 minutes on home matches. The time must be declared at the start of the season and is fixed. This allows for evening matches to be a maximum of two hours while Saturday matches can be longer where time is less of an issue.


Discuss!

cdeb

So seeing as I proposed most of them, I may as well throw in my two cents to get things started -

1) I think last year's decision to change the Bodley to one hour was well intentioned, but an awful, awful decision. Evidently, I'm not alone as Curragh have a similar motion in (although their rule is slightly confusing - I think it means that to declare 90 minutes as your home time control, you have to play on Saturdays)

The problem is about late finishes for juniors; it's an understandable one. However, the rule change has a number of problems -

a) The Bodley is not a junior league; fewer than half the players are juniors
b) The rule change does nothing to allow juniors to progress through the leagues; Gonzaga withdrew from the O'Hanlon a few years ago. This rule does nothing to get them back there
c) One hour is too short a time control for a proper competition. Certainly, we're encouraging our players to stop and think about positions and use their time fully. With one hour each, they just get caught in time trouble and end up losing games they should win. For players to progress properly, they have to play the game properly; one hour simply isn't enough time.
d) Pretty much all our juniors who played the Bodley this year (16 of them) disliked the time control, and all who subbed for the O'Hanlon or Heidenfeld commented how much better it was to have more time.

The one-hour Bodley simply needs to go, IMO.

2) Going to a 90-minute Bodley doesn't solve the problems of late night finishes for juniors, of course. What I'd like to see is junior teams playing on Saturday afternoons just like country teams. All clubs have to declare their squads before the season starts; declare yourself as a junior team, with three juniors in the squad, and all your games are scheduled for Saturday afternoons.

I think this would be a huge help to juniors playing in the league, and progressing up through it. It is technically open to abuse - declaring three juniors, two of whom never play, just to get all your games on Saturday afternoons. But realistically, as no non-country team plays on Saturday afternoons anyway, I can't see any team abusing the rules to change their start time.

I think the highest "junior" team last season was St Benildus' O'Hanlon team, and I don't recall any other team in the O'Hanlon (though I didn't see many of them of course). So for now, this would affect relatively few games in the leagues.

3) Obviously some clubs want to play one-hour games; this proposal is to see if there's interest in a new division as a stepping stone from beginners chess (the O'Connell Cup) to senior chess (the Bodley). Games would be played on club nights rather than the O'Connell set-up of all meeting in the one venue and playing a few games a weekend, so it'd be a transition from O'Connell to Bodley.

4) This seems convoluted, but the idea is fairly simple. In the past ten seasons, there's been 17 gaps in the leagues which went unfilled. That's 17 teams that pulled out after the fixtures were announced, and no team was promoted in their place. I was particularly annoyed that our Bodley (who'd finished third) weren't promoted last season after first Kilkenny and then Wicklow withdrew from the Ennis - a week after our Heidenfeld were promoted when Bray asked for a relegation. We've finished third again this season (in both groups). I want to avoid a repeat!

I think if clubs are going to ask for fixtures by 31 August, the least they can do in return is confirm if they'll be entering the leagues in the first place. I think that's just common courtesy. Players want to play at a higher level, and improve by so doing. To leave teams in lower divisions when there are gaps further above is silly. So before the fixtures are issued, clubs should be asked to confirm entry. We all know what divisions we're in next season. So for Benildus, we'd be asked if we want to keep our teams in the Armstrong, Heidenfeld and O'Hanlon. If we want to drop our O'Hanlon (which we don't, but anyway), then third place in the BA should be invited to take our place. Let's stop having gaps in the leagues for no reason.

5) A minor point this one; there's been times when we've been really short for a game, and rather than forfeit, we've called in someone who hasn't played in a couple of years, or asked a parent who's helping with transport to jump in on the bottom board. It always seems a bit much to then turn around and ask for E35 for helping us out! It's a chance-my-arm proposal; not too pushed if it goes through to be honest.

6) As per the other thread, I felt this year's Cup schedule was way too hectic. One of the Branagan groups had six teams in before Curragh withdrew - to win the cup, therefore, teams were being asked to play seven games in seven weeks. I think that's too much. It also means subs are much harder to come by, as they're playing a game a week themselves. So this is to try put a limit on the number of cup games. Again, not too pushed if it goes through.

Bray This one has been proposed a few times in various guises, I think. Was it rejected last year because it was badly worded? In fairness, while it's very annoying when consecutive teams play on the same night, I think this one would be a logistical nightmare for Peter Scott.

Curragh As above, I think this is confusing the way it's written, and I'm more in favour of all Bodley games going to 90 minutes. This rule could give country teams an advantage as all their games would be 90 minutes.

EnPassant

I think the Bray/Greystones motion is badly worded in that it doesn't take account of clubs with A and B teams in a division - I presume the idea behind the motion is to enable subs to be available. I have been writing a pairing program that incorporates what I think they want into the pairings [ basically that a club's A team in a division will not play on the same night as the next higher or lower A team ] so hopefully this will not be an issue for most clubs next year.

I don't see the Junior Team idea getting passed!

I've no problem with proposal 5 - but would it be a problem for the ICU or for getting games rated?

cdeb

If there's a programme that'll sort consecutive teams playing on the same night, that'd be excellent!

What would you suggest to improve the Junior Team motion? Something needs to be done badly here - juniors aren't playing in the leagues, and our experience is that they really don't like the one-hour format. I think leagues are important for building a sense of club pride, which ultimately may help keep them interested in the game. We never had much of a problem with late nights, but others have. We need something to be done here, and juniors playing weekends is the obvious solution.

EnPassant

I think others would have more knowledge of junior chess - but I know that there is a view that juniors don't want special treatment in the adult leagues.

And there are already 5 teams playing on Saturday in the Armstrong next year ...

cdeb

While I agree (from experience in one of the country's biggest junior clubs) that juniors are best treated as adults in chess, clearly there is a view that they want different treatment in the leagues if the Bodley was changed to one hour specifically for them. And there is the issue that Gonzaga don't have a lower-league in team - which is ridiculous, when you look at the strength of their Armstrong - partly because of the late-night finishes (a driver-captain is the other issue).

This rule would affect no Armstrong team at all. As I said, the highest team last season that could claim it, as far as I'm aware, is in the O'Hanlon.

FWIW, the was hardly ever a problem with us playing on weeknights; the view was that five late-night away games over the year wasn't that much (home games aren't so bad, especially as you can leave when you're finished). For me, the main thing is to get rid of the one-hour Bodley. But junior team status is something I think would encourage juniors to progress through the league, and I don't see how that's a bad thing.

Gearoid MacGabhain

This year had the biggest Bodley entry in years and I think it was down to having the games involving juniors set as an hour. There is still the option of a longer game if both sides agree

cdeb

I don't think there's any evidence that the increase in the Bodley was down to the time control.

For starters, 12 teams entered last year (three subsequently pulled out, one half-way through the leagues). 14 entered this year, but there were only ten teams in the Ennis - so basically there was no nett gain of teams this year at all. Still 72 teams.

Of those who joined, Round Tower and Gorey weren't junior teams, so the control can hardly be said to have affected their decision. And if clubs want a one-hour league to get started with leagues, I've proposed one.

The "If both sides agree" thing is a fop; it's one hour by default, and all it takes really is one player wanting to play that time control and the whole team will insist on it (or be stuck waiting an extra hour).

The fact of the matter is that longer games are better for juniors (and adults) looking to improve their game, and a senior league such as the Bodley should not be a one-hour league. This is backed up by pretty much all our junior players who played the league this season.

Gearoid MacGabhain

I agree that longer games are better for everyone, but it is not feasible for young players to be playing late at night.Perhaps if all games were played on a Saturday this issue could be looked at. The indications from the teams that entered the novice leagues is that they will be entering teams into the Bodley because of the current time control thus furthering a further increase next season.

cdeb

Gearoid MacGabhain wrote: »

I agree that longer games are better for everyone, but it is not feasible for young players to be playing late at night.

Which is why I've proposed the idea of junior teams playing on Saturdays, and a separate one-hour league for those who want it.

The problem with the current set-up is that it doesn't allow juniors to progress through the leagues. Blanchardstown in the BA or O'Hanlon next season - they'll have to play weeknights and have late finishes. This might be a problem; it's why Gonzaga pulled out of the O'Hanlon a couple of years ago.

My suggestion is a way of combining the best of both worlds (no late finishes; longer games; allows juniors to progress through the leagues) and is surely much preferable to the current set-up? There has to be a problem if two clubs are looking to change it, and players are criticising it.

There is no provision at all for Bodley players who want to play full-length games, and that's a ridiculous omission at present that needs to be fixed.

Irish Warrior

Regarding the junior teams playing on Saturday, I would be against it.

If it's forcing (you said junior teams play all games on Saturdays, so I assume you mean away games too) teams to play their home league games on Saturdays because the team they are playing has three or more kids on it.
People join a club for two reasons, they live/work near the club, and/or the club night is a time they have free. Forcing clubs to play their home games on Saturdays even against Dublin teams, may restrict players from playing on their club teams.

The leagues are not junior leagues, and the vast majority of players are adults. So making such a major change to when league games are played would be trying to accommodate junior players at the expense of existing adult players, and could very well backfire.

The change to the Bodley time control to 1 hour (I would support a reversal to 90mins) to accommodate junior players in your own words doesn't seem to have helped the numbers in that league. So why would a change to when a team can play their matches on?

Sorry if I come off a little harsh towards juniors. But the leagues/cups are not targeted at juniors, but people seem to want to change that. Even though the Bodley time was changed for them, and they have their own novice league, the O'Connell cup. As well as seeking to create another league (an Intermediate Division).

I'm all for getting more juniors involved in chess, but not at the expense of the existing player base.

cdeb

Irish Warrior wrote: »

So why would a change to when a team can play their matches on?

I agree with your comment that the leagues aren't junior leagues, and in fact with most of your comments. Our juniors were quite happy playing on weeknights; others evidently weren't, which is why the Bodley changed to one hour.

By way of explanation - while I think that one hour hinders juniors' progress, I wanted to address the point being made that juniors find playing on weeknights awkward. This was the best compromise I could find. Yes, the rule as I have it would mean their away games would be on Saturdays.

The other problem with the rule as it stands is that if a junior team gets promoted from the Bodley, they either have to start playing weeknights or turn down promotion. What's the point in entering the leagues if you're going to turn down promotion? Surely a separate one-hour league would be better from that point of view.

I think the whole one-hour Bodley has been very badly thought through.

Chessrookie

Cdeb,
Firstly, I am totally in support of the Bodley moving back to a 90 minute time control and away from a 60 minute control.
Whilst the rule was very well intentioned, it is actually not what the juniors really want. I have a child that played Bodley the season before last and have another who may play Bodley this year, but I would find the very short time control a big deterrent to my child potentially playing in it next year.
We are training our kids when they start playing to slow down and take their time. The 60 minute rule gives the wrong message.
For a fast junior playing their first few games 60 or 90 minutes won't matter as they will move extremely fast anyhow, however over the course of a season 60 minutes does not work.
I also know from talking to parents of juniors who played in the Bodley this year (not St Benildus), that the kids themselves did not like to 60 minutes either.

I was torn on the Saturday rule, when i first saw your post.My son benefitted from playing home Bodley games on a Saturday before and the couple of mid week away games were a challenge. This year we played most of our games mid week, with the full 1 hr 45 min control and it was definitely challenging.
Weighing it up, the Saturday afternoon idea is a good idea, although you may need to increase the number of juniors on the squad, to 4 or 5, to make it a more palatable suggestion. Another option might be that a "Junior" squad might possibly be allowed to play 2 home matches v other Dublin teams on a Saturday, which may work as a compromise.
I don t think this rule will however work for the cups. They are very cramped at the moment, so it would be too difficult to try also facilitate Saturdays as well.

cdeb

Chessrookie wrote: »

We are training our kids when they start playing to slow down and take their time. The 60 minute rule gives the wrong message.

Exactly the same problem we're having.

Interesting to hear, though, that we're not the only club where the juniors don't like the time control. I think it'd be good to get that view aired at the AGM.

Possibly upping the number of juniors on the team is an idea; I think that's the kind of thing that can be amended at the AGM after debating the matter. I just wanted to get some sort of discussion on the idea.

On the cups - the cups last year were groups of four, with games two weeks apart. The motion I've proposed on that would aim to make that the standard cup format, so that's your concern there sorted.

cdeb

So St Benildus motions 1, 3 and 6 passed, with new software on the way which will apparently help a bit with our motion 4 and Bray's motion. Curragh's motion was similar to our motion 1, so was withdrawn.

Have to be happy with that, I think. Roll on next season!

Sparks

cdeb wrote: »

So St Benildus motions 1, 3 and 6 passed... Roll on next season!

Excellent! A new intermediate league starting in September(ish) then?

cdeb

Bodley starts in November usually; once clubs see who's left from the other five divisions. The Intermediate (which may be a separate Intermediate league or a resurrection of the old Division 7 or a B group of division 6; whatever the LCU finds clubs want) would start around the same time, I'd say.

Irish Warrior

Very happy that the Bodley time is 90mins.

Motion 3 will I hope take the form as a division 7 (after clubs are canvassed) as outlined in the motion. It will be a good introduction for juniors to the LCU leagues, while at the same time not tying players to only that league.

The better structure of the cups outlined in motion 6 (and the earlier start after the leagues next season) will hopefully make them less hectic.

cdeb

Should be noted on the cups that the exec acknowledged that they should open entries earlier, maybe mid-Feb. Makes sense.