Improvements for Irish Chess

reunion

Anyone have any suggestions for improving the state of Irish Chess at the moment?

To try to encourage new members
More participation rates in tournaments
etc.

Sparks

Sites like chess.com track what country a player is from; perhaps the ICU could establish a presence there and organise an "Irish group" and online tournaments as a gateway to OTB games?

Sparks

Also; facebook and twitter presences. Chess has the same problem shooting has in retaining younger players; though chess seems to hit it earlier, at the secondary/college transition while shooting hits it at the college graduation point. But things like email lists have worked well for keeping people involved (or at least in touch with) college clubs for us; facebook groups and twitter are now helping do the same thing. No reason (even less so given the demographic trends involved) that this wouldn't help with the chess world -- though there has to be a very strong emphasis on inclusion and community for this approach to work, rather than the We don't want to know if you're not rated 1900 or higher approach.

reunion

Sparks wrote: »

Also; facebook and twitter presences. Chess has the same problem shooting has in retaining younger players; though chess seems to hit it earlier, at the secondary/college transition while shooting hits it at the college graduation point. But things like email lists have worked well for keeping people involved (or at least in touch with) college clubs for us; facebook groups and twitter are now helping do the same thing. No reason (even less so given the demographic trends involved) that this wouldn't help with the chess world -- though there has to be a very strong emphasis on inclusion and community for this approach to work, rather than the We don't want to know if you're not rated 1900 or higher approach.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/306657479415939/ is a facebook group for Irish Chess.

Some clubs do have twitter accounts and facebook presences but it would a small number.

Some good suggestions so far.

Sparks

reunion wrote: »

https://www.facebook.com/groups/306657479415939/ is a facebook group for Irish Chess.

Yeah, but it's a closed group...

cdeb

I think the status was changed at the time of the Cork Incident, due to the extra media attention.

(Interestingly, one of the protagonists was playing at Drogheda, in spite of being asked to refrain from ICU competition while the investigation is underway)

reunion

cdeb wrote: »

I think the status was changed at the time of the Cork Incident, due to the extra media attention.

(Interestingly, one of the protagonists was playing at Drogheda, in spite of being asked to refrain from ICU competition while the investigation is underway)

It says they were asked to voluntarily stop playing. I guess that individual decided to not voluntarily stop playing

While many people might consider that either one or both players should be temporarily banned from taking part in ICU events while the two sub-committees are conducting their investigations, there is nothing in our constitution and code of conduct that would enable the executive to do this. However, both players will be asked to voluntarily refrain from taking part in ICU events while the disciplinary sub-committees are making their investigations.

cdeb

reunion wrote: »

It says they were asked to voluntarily stop playing. I guess that individual decided to not voluntarily stop playing

Well, yes. Goes without saying!

Not really in the spirit of things though. Kind of two fingers to the ICU.

feargale

reunion wrote: »

It says they were asked to voluntarily stop playing. I guess that individual decided to not voluntarily stop playing

How can you ask somebody to stop playing? Either ban them or not.

cdeb

In fairness, innocent till proven guilty. They're guilty of nothing until the investigation is over, so they can't be banned.

checknraise

I think Sparks is on the money and its a brilliant suggestion the only thing is would chess.com/redhotpawn or any other website be breaching data protection by giving out the Irish players contact details!?

There should be way more 1 day rapid/blitz tournaments compared what is currently organised nobody is ever too keen to give up a whole weekend to play chess and it lets potential new players/members get there toes wet before they played a full tournament.

reunion

checknraise wrote: »

I think Sparks is on the money and its a brilliant suggestion the only thing is would chess.com/redhotpawn or any other website be breaching data protection by giving out the Irish players contact details!?

There should be way more 1 day rapid/blitz tournaments compared what is currently organised nobody is ever too keen to give up a whole weekend to play chess and it lets potential new players/members get there toes wet before they played a full tournament.

I'd be different; I wouldn't travel across the country for a one day event.

If there was a blitz rating maybe I might go but like if I wanted to play blitz I'd play online.

Sparks

reunion wrote: »

I'd be different; I wouldn't travel across the country for a one day event.
If there was a blitz rating maybe I might go but like if I wanted to play blitz I'd play online.

I'm actually in a bind that can't be that uncommon - I have a young child (14mo, but generally this would apply to any child under three from what I've learnt from other parents), and getting the amount of free time needed to take part in a full tournament is just not a possibility right now for me. Bray rapidplay is about the limit of what I can do in terms of how much time I can devote to a competition.

It was actually the question I first asked Mark Orr, whether it was possible to get a FIDE rating in Ireland without playing full tournaments (for those wondering, you can through the leinster leagues but it's far slower; and that might possibly be in flux because of FIDE rule changes regarding arbiters so it might no longer be possible for the immediate future).

Perhaps that's another avenue to consider when considering how to improve things - having a pathway to FIDE ratings for those who simply cannot (and I mean can not, not couldn't be bothered) devote the time to tournament play. I mean, it doesn't have to be the widest of pathways, if you can't devote the time you have to accept a longer timeframe to achieve your goals (in my case I had hoped to get a rating within one to two years, but that may now be deferred temporarily); but if the pathway doesn't exist at all, or if it's just something nobody ever thinks about ... well, there are a lot of professionals and parents and others out there who can't take entire weekends or weeks to go play in tournaments but who would make for promising players within the limits imposed by their available time.

So maybe if we had more one-day events (rated or not) in more parts of the country more often, it would act as a stepping stone to something like regular club play (and in later years as circumstances change, perhaps on to full tournaments).

Reunion, if there were local one-day events, would you compete?

reunion

Sparks wrote: »

Reunion, if there were local one-day events, would you compete?

Yeah I probably would, but probably once. If it was a yearly thing on it's own, probably yeah.

I wouldn't get so worked up about getting a FIDE rating. Unless you don't think you'd improve anymore (substantially) there isn't much point in rushing to get one.

I think we are going to have a problem in the future where younger players have a bad FIDE rating and it takes a while to change to properly reflect their ability.

mikhail

reunion wrote: »

I think we are going to have a problem in the future where younger players have a bad FIDE rating and it takes a while to change to properly reflect their ability.

It's never bothered, e.g., France, where they have no other rating system. I see no reason it should be a problem here.

Sparks

reunion wrote: »

I wouldn't get so worked up about getting a FIDE rating. Unless you don't think you'd improve anymore (substantially) there isn't much point in rushing to get one.

I don't think I'm particularly rushing -- I'm more used to an international standard for this sort of thing is all. I mean, the ICU rating would be grand if you only ever wanted to look at other Irish players. I'd like to know where I stood against a wider field. Beyond the curiosity value, it doesn't mean a lot to me to be honest.

cdeb

mikhail wrote: »

It's never bothered, e.g., France, where they have no other rating system. I see no reason it should be a problem here.

Yet interestingly, one of our own players opted for a lower league team last season for exactly that reason! But in general, I don't think FIDE ratings are to be taken too seriously below title level or so.

Pete Morriss

Sparks wrote: »

It was actually the question I first asked Mark Orr, whether it was possible to get a FIDE rating in Ireland without playing full tournaments ...

Perhaps that's another avenue to consider when considering how to improve things - having a pathway to FIDE ratings for those who simply cannot (and I mean can not, not couldn't be bothered) devote the time to tournament play. ...

So maybe if we had more one-day events (rated or not) in more parts of the country more often, it would act as a stepping stone to something like regular club play (and in later years as circumstances change, perhaps on to full tournaments).

Then you should play in the Galway Rapidplay on 29 June: it's FIDE rated and only lasts one day. Seems ideal for you. There's further information at http://www.icu.ie/events/forms/543.pdf or http://www.galwaychess.com/. Looking forward to seeing you!

Sparks

Pete Morriss wrote: »

Then you should play in the Galway Rapidplay on 29 June: it's FIDE rated and only lasts one day. Seems ideal for you. There's further information at http://www.icu.ie/events/forms/543.pdf or http://www.galwaychess.com/. Looking forward to seeing you!

I would... but Galway's on the far side of the country. I'm going to go to Bray, but they're just 15 minutes away. But by next year, things may be different, and it does sound excellent (apart from the distance)...

bigtoe7

If coming to galway it should be a 2 day event to make it worthwhile to travel to the west of the country and return same day is too much

Lucena

mikhail wrote: »

It's never bothered, e.g., France, where they have no other rating system. I see no reason it should be a problem here.

Hi Mikhail.

That's not strictly true. France has a national rating system, but it's being slowly superceded by the Fide rating. Once you get a Fide rating, your national rating disappears, so eventually everyone other than beginners will only have a Fide rating. The disadvantage of this is that a lot of competitions in France, played at 60min x 2 for all the moves, only count for the national rating which few people now have.
I could mention a few other disadvantages of this system, but I'm at work so I suppose I'd better get back to it.

Gearoid MacGabhain

Not sure if this is off post, but how about an all Ireland league.
If enough clubs from out side of Leinster were interested. Time limit could be 2 hours each team size could be determined 5 or 6 or 8. Most games would have to be on a weekend but local teams could organise. If there is enough interest the LCU would be happy to organise.


With regard to FIDE ratings for kids they should register on the fide website http://sm.fide.com/site This will only cost 10 euro per year and they also get membership of the ICU as well.

Games can then be submitted for rating by clubs etc and if there is enought kids registered they will see movement on their rating. Its also the offical fide rating so they would be on the same list as Carlsen. The FIDE number will also be an official number for life and they also get free coaching material every month.

Pete Morriss

bigtoe7 wrote: »

If coming to galway it should be a 2 day event to make it worthwhile to travel to the west of the country and return same day is too much

Well, there's quite a late starting time (11 a.m.) to make it easier for people to travel from wherever they are, should they wish. Or you could make a weekend of it, and enjoy Galway whilst you're here.

If you want a two (and a bit) day event, there's the Galway Congress in October, but it's not FIDE rated.

Pete Morriss

Gearoid MacGabhain wrote: »

Not sure if this is off post, but how about an all Ireland league.

Galway could be interested in this: we've come third or fourth in the National Club Championship for the last three years, so would be competition for anyone. We would expect to play half our matches at home, of course.

Sparks

Travel's an awkward thing; you'd wonder if there was merit in the suggestion (I think it was Dan Heisman who suggested it) that you pick a place where the local players can get to easily, have an independent controller, and run the matches over the 'net (even if you have physical boards in the room) -- so basicly, you go to your local club, play a game against an opponent who's in their local club, and the whole thing is monitored by an independent party to keep everything on the straight and narrow.

cdeb

It could be possible for just the top flight, though there's enough opposition to Saturday matches in the Armstrong as it is. Ireland's not a big country though; should be doable.

Where it'd get a bit awkward is promotion/relegation. Say a 12-team league, with two down to the regional leagues. If Galway get relegated*, where do they go? And who comes up? Do you get the four (three?) regional winners to play off for two spots? Will there be complaints if there's no Connacht/Munster/Leinster representation in the top flight? What would happen to the Armstrong, the world's oldest continually played chess trophy? And how would the Munster clubs manage without being able to field as many bangers as they wanted?**

I think it's an interesting idea though.


* - about as likely as Rathmines getting releg...oh, wait.

** - seriously; can anyone tell me what that's about? What do Adare gain from asking players from Dún Laoghaire, Celbridge, St Benildus, Wicklow, Kilkenny, etc, to play for them in the leagues? Or flying in GMs just so they win the National Club Championships, making a farce of the whole thing?

EnPassant

I think the problem with a national or All-Ireland league is that the Leinster teams will always be much more interested in winning the Armstrong Cup than in winning a national League. Maybe another way of going about it would be to expand the Armstrong Cup to include teams from other provinces.

My idea of how it might work:

Year 1.
12 teams from outside Leinster are invited/nominated to take part in the Heidenfeld Trophy (div 2 of the Leinster leagues). The Heidenfeld Trophy now has 24 teams and is split into a north and south section. At the end of the year 2 teams are promoted to the Armstrong from each section and 4 teams are relegated from the Armstrong. The bottom two Leinster teams in the Heidenfeld are relegated and the top two teams in the Ennis Shield replace them. The other provinces organise their own method of promotion and relegation.

Year 2 onwards.
The Armstrong Cup continues as a league of 12 teams, except now with probably 3 or 4 teams from outside Leinster. From year 2 only 2 teams are automatically relegated to be replaced by the winners of each Heidenfeld section. Perhaps the 10th placed team should have to play off with the two 2nd placed Heidenfeld teams for the right to stay in the Armstrong.

From the Leinster League point of view, there would be no change - there would be promotion and relegation from divisions 1 through 6, the only difference being that there would be non-Leinster teams in divisions 1 and 2 and there would be a 24 team Heidenfeld split into North and South sections.

It might be necessary to include some balancing system to adjust the number of teams from each province within the top 2 divisions. The above formula also assumes that both Munster and Ulster teams would take part.

As Sparks suggests, in some restricted cases games could be played over the internet (for example, Cork teams against Belfast teams)

cdeb

EnPassant wrote: »

Maybe another way of going about it would be to expand the Armstrong Cup to include teams from other provinces.

Well, that's the way I saw it going alright - so the Armstrong Cup is still awarded - but it is still the same competition that holds the record?

I would have thought a national Heidenfeld was a step too far tbh. Given Ulster still seem happy to go their own way, I can't see that you'd have 12 teams from outside Leinster that'd have a hope of competing in the Heidenfeld. There were only 13 teams in the 2011/12 Munster leagues, for example, and there's no division 2 mentioned in the current season. There's no Connacht league at all; I'm sure Galway could get together a decent team for a national league, but would there be anyone else? Ballinasloe already compete in Leinster, as do Cavan from Ulster.

Also, how would taking, let's say, Adare and Ennis out of the Munster leagues affect them? Would there still be interest?

Wasn't there a rumour about Ennis looking to join the Bodley this season? Or was that nonsense?

Lucena

EnPassant wrote: »

I think the problem with a national or All-Ireland league is that the Leinster teams will always be much more interested in winning the Armstrong Cup than in winning a national League. Maybe another way of going about it would be to expand the Armstrong Cup to include teams from other provinces.

My idea of how it might work:

Year 1.
12 teams from outside Leinster are invited/nominated to take part in the Heidenfeld Trophy (div 2 of the Leinster leagues). The Heidenfeld Trophy now has 24 teams and is split into a north and south section. At the end of the year 2 teams are promoted to the Armstrong from each section and 4 teams are relegated from the Armstrong. The bottom two Leinster teams in the Heidenfeld are relegated and the top two teams in the Ennis Shield replace them. The other provinces organise their own method of promotion and relegation.

Year 2 onwards.
The Armstrong Cup continues as a league of 12 teams, except now with probably 3 or 4 teams from outside Leinster. From year 2 only 2 teams are automatically relegated to be replaced by the winners of each Heidenfeld section. Perhaps the 10th placed team should have to play off with the two 2nd placed Heidenfeld teams for the right to stay in the Armstrong.

From the Leinster League point of view, there would be no change - there would be promotion and relegation from divisions 1 through 6, the only difference being that there would be non-Leinster teams in divisions 1 and 2 and there would be a 24 team Heidenfeld split into North and South sections.

It might be necessary to include some balancing system to adjust the number of teams from each province within the top 2 divisions. The above formula also assumes that both Munster and Ulster teams would take part.

As Sparks suggests, in some restricted cases games could be played over the internet (for example, Cork teams against Belfast teams)

It could also be possible to play at a neutral venue halfway between the two clubs, hosted by another club. Clubs could be asked to give info on their capacity (how many teams can play in their venue at one time) and the available dates, all this info being given at the start of the season.

Sparks

Of course, if you're just starting something off, you want to start easy and noticeable... how about taking the winners of the regional championships (or whatever comes closest to them now) and have a single invitational match for them as a single weekend event? If that works, if it generates interest, then the next year step it up a notch and build it up gradually?

cdeb

Well, that's what the National Championships were up until 2008. It changed for 2009 so that any team could enter. And then it turned into a bit of a farce with Bray in particular inviting foreign GMs in to compete on their team (seriously; what's the point?) The rules were changed after that - you have to have played at least once in the leagues, I think - but there's still players imported so they can play in the Nationals, I think. It's kind of like the African nations cheating at underage football - yeah, they used to win the competitions, but to no real aid for the game there.

One of the points of the competition was to determine who'd qualify for the European Club Championships, so it was essentially the same as you're talking about. When Ulster pulled out of the ICU what - a decade ago? - the Armstrong runners-up were invited.