1.4TDCi Ford Fusion noisy after changing timing belt

kdouglas

Hi all,

Been doing a bit of work on our ford fusion lately, the biggest job of which was two weeks ago when i changed the timing belt along with the tensioner/idler,water pump and auxiliary drive belt. Followed the procedure as per the Haynes manual and had no issues, but now I'm getting a high pitched whirring noise, it doesn't happen when the engine is cold, but will start after about ten minutes of driving.

I was wondering if it's a bearing on the power steering pump or something, so I got it warmed up today to make sure the noise was there, then took the aux belt off and ran the engine. The noise was still present, if I hadn't changed the water pump I'd be worried it was that, the only other thing driven from the timing belt is the high pressure fuel pump, could that be the source?

I'm also slightly concerned about the crankshaft pulley, looks like there might be a slight wobble when it's spinning.

I took a video lying underneath looking at the crankshaft pulley:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hQKY_GnuCU&feature=youtube_gdata_player


Thoughts/suggestions?
Thanks.

defforirl

Take off the cover and have a look at the timing belt assembly inc tensioner/idlers looking for signs of rubbing/friction.

Are you confident ALL the bolts were torqued up corectly?

Did you check the crankshaft for excessive end float when you removed the old belt?

These crank pulleys are of a steel/rubber/steel laminate construction, seen lots with a slight wobble due to fair wear and tear, nothing to worry about normally.

kdouglas

defforirl wrote: »

Take off the cover and have a look at the timing belt assembly inc tensioner/idlers looking for signs of rubbing/friction.

Are you confident ALL the bolts were torqued up corectly?

Did you check the crankshaft for excessive end float when you removed the old belt?

These crank pulleys are of a steel/rubber/steel laminate construction, seen lots with a slight wobble due to fair wear and tear, nothing to worry about normally.

Didn't check the crankshaft for play but nothing seemed out of order.

Everything was torqued in right.

I can take the covers off and have a look,anywhere specific to check? Tensioner, idler, etc.?

defforirl

Yes take a good look at the tensioners and idlers, also that the belt is sitting centrally on all the pulleys etc. Its a very rare situation but wouldn't be totally unheard of for either a water pump or idler/tensioner to be defective from new. Did you buy a kit from a decent brand name?

kdouglas

defforirl wrote: »

Yes take a good look at the tensioners and idlers, also that the belt is sitting centrally on all the pulleys etc. Its a very rare situation but wouldn't be totally unheard of for either a water pump or idler/tensioner to be defective from new. Did you buy a kit from a decent brand name?

Got them from micksgarage, timing belt kit was SNR, water pump is Airtex?

Will be away for the week, so will take the covers off and have a look next weekend.

Cheers

rex-x

Timing belt is too tight I would imagine

Wheelnut

I agree, timing belt too tight... just that simple.

defforirl

Just that simple ehh...things are rarely that simple, Timing set up is pretty straight forward on these engines and seeing as the op is 100% confident that everything was torqued correctly that maybe an overly simplistic answer.

I've seens tensioners fail prematurely on these enginesand whine alright but an overly tight belt will generally whine all the time not just when the engine is hot.

rex-x

defforirl wrote: »

Just that simple ehh...things are rarely that simple, Timing set up is pretty straight forward on these engines and seeing as the op is 100% confident that everything was torqued correctly that maybe an overly simplistic answer.

I've seens tensioners fail prematurely on these enginesand whine alright but an overly tight belt will generally whine all the time not just when the engine is hot.

No it really is just that simple, timing belt too tight is a distinctive noise, video has said noise.
Reason it happens when its hot is because the engine expands and increases tension on the belt.
Timing is simple on almost any engine, provided you know what you are doing!
Timing belts need very little tension compared to what an amateur would perceive them to need, hence so many over tightened ones!

Duke of Speed

rex-x wrote: »

No it really is just that simple, timing belt too tight is a distinctive noise, video has said noise.
Reason it happens when its hot is because the engine expands and increases tension on the belt.
Timing is simple on almost any engine, provided you know what you are doing!
Timing belts need very little tension compared to what an amateur would perceive them to need, hence so many over tightened ones!

you are 100% right tight timing belt 35 years listening to that noise belts tighten when they get hot

kdouglas

Thanks for the input lads, I'll check the tension too this weekend. I set the tension as per the instructions in the Haynes manual, but it was my first time doing a timing belt....

Any tips on checking the tension is tight enough, but not too tight?

Ronnie Beck

kdouglas wrote: »

Thanks for the input lads, I'll check the tension too this weekend. I set the tension as per the instructions in the Haynes manual, but it was my first time doing a timing belt....

Any tips on checking the tension is tight enough, but not too tight?

There can be a bit of a knack to some jobs.
On a totally different engine so may not apply at all but just as an example. I found when changing mine after you set the tension and then tightened the cam sprocket onto the tapered end of the camshaft, the belt would tighten further. You either had to under-tension it initially or just barely release the cam sprocket from the taper or a bit of both.

A rough way to check the tension would be too grab the belt between two pulleys and twist it. Sould turn roughly 90 degrees. If it's going towards 180 it's to loose and if your struggling to make 90 its too tight.

Can you see the indicator on the tensioner on them? Only way too be sure really.

kdouglas

OK, I double checked the tension yesterday, it was a bit tight so I backed it off. The belt is still not turning 90 degrees by hand, more like 45-60, but the distance between any of the pulleys is quite close, so I think I would have to almost have the tensioner completely backed off to be able to twist it 90 degrees.

There is a little indicator/index arm on the side of the tension which shows tension, the first image shows where it was positioned before, which is as per the instructions in the haynes manual (index arm between the two arms), but I noticed that you can over tighten it and the indicator stays in the same position.

This is before:


So I dropped it off a little and the indicator is now at this position;



As of this morning, it's still making noise....

Do I a) Back off the tensioner more? remove and refit the entire belt/tensioner?
b) Start looking at the possibility the original over tightening has damaged the follower/tensioner/water pump? If so, how do I figure this out?

dieselbug

I'd be having a really close look at that front pulley. They do break up and should not have a wobble.

CRBN

Hello kdouglas.

I have a Peugeot 307 1.4 HDi with the same engine.
I replaced a complete timing kit (INA) and water pump (GRAF) and I have the same noise you describe.
I have the absolute same experience you are having: happens only when hot (only at service temperature – 80ºC).
I also removed the covers a 2nd time and also found that the tension indicator is OK, the pointer is in the middle of the window.
I didn’t lowered the tension, a Peugeot mechanic told me that if the tension indicator in OK, I shouldn’t loosen the belt. It looks like the real cause of this is not the tension itself.
Mine has run 7K with this belt and the noise is still there. Nevertheless the engine runs fine and the noise isn’t audible at the steering wheel, only if you came outside to pay attention.
Do you have any news about this? Did you found any solution?
I read posts from people having the same problem in TDI engines and some only solved the issue replacing the belt for another brand.
It looks like it can be the belt construction and used materials issue. If that’s it, it means that the problem is “just a noise”. If I was sure the issue is just a noise and the integrity of the engine is not affected, I would forget immediately about this :-/

Thanks in advance.

CN

CRBN

Anyone? Please advice... :-(

whizbang

I have heard talk of a spray oil stuff for the belt, if the noise disappears, then its just the belt.

BUT please dont spray anything on the belt yet, maybe some real mechanic can confirm.?

CRBN

Hello.

Thanks for your reply.
Peugeot local Chief Mechanic told me if the belt tension is right and nothing is rubbing, this should be just a noise, an acoustic effect. He says that unfortunately, new belts on old used systems with lots of miles can result in brake in noise. Some do, some don’t. These are his words...
I studied a bit this kind of problem, I found that is very common people complaining about new TB noise, even if the have the right tension. Some of these people found solution in changing the belt tension, but I believe tension itself is not the root cause of the effect, so I believe these persons create potentially bigger problem to eliminate a minor problem.
Some people tend not to understand this and I found that some pro mechanics tend to have suspicious theories about this. They always tend to blame the tension! Easy to say, but for me, not the cause.
My local mechanic for yeas told me: “I’m glad you did this job, because if I did it in your car, I would be in big trouble with you. You would never accept that theory coming from my mouth!” ... probably! ;-)

You should ear how soft it runs wile the engine is cold! :-/
Do you know why I started to ear this noise? Thermostat went away and the engine was running at about 60ºC. As soon as I replaced it and the engine started to run in the normal >80ºC the noise became evident! I’m starting to believe it’s just a noise, but I’m a science man, I usually don’t trust in beliefs but in proven facts, and I’m not yet convinced.

Wheelnut

I think Whizbang is talking about a small test to see if the noise is coming from the fabric of the belt. A squirt of spray oil is all that's needed, however you should use something like silicone oil which is used on things like curtain rails, seat belts etc. Do NOT spray lubricating oil on it.