Irish and Basque people

annelida

Do Irish people look like Basque people?

P. Breathnach

Some do; some don't.

Ponster

annelida wrote: »

Do Irish people look like Basque people?

I think that you need to ask a more detailed question to get a more detailed reply.

I lived there for a bit and the people just looked French to me. I wouldn't for example say that the Basque looked more like the Irish then people living in Brittany for example.

Ipso

I'll try to find the blog and post it. It's one whete the author posts pictures of people from various regions. He had a load of Irish people and a genetics blogger from the Basque region reckoned Irish and Basques looked nothing alike.

doolox

...that the basques are a very competent, able and intelligent people who took on the Spanish and are still alive to talk about it they are more comparable to the Dutch than the Irish.

It is reckoned that the Basques were fishing off the grand banks 50 yrs before Columbus discovered the New world in 1492 but kept it secret to avoid competition from other maritime nations.

Vasco da Gama the Portuguese sailor who sailed around Africa to India wan also originally Basque.

I do not think the Irish are remotely related to the Basques, if we were we would probably be in the top jobs in London in charge of a united, prosperous and well functioning North Atlantic Islands rather than the failed bitter and dysfunctional nationette that we are today.

Ipso

Here is the blog I mentioned.
http://anthroeurope.blogspot.com/2010/04/mayo-connacht-ireland.html?m=1

RGM

Ipso wrote: »

Here is the blog I mentioned.
http://anthroeurope.blogspot.com/2010/04/mayo-connacht-ireland.html?m=1

I can't think of a less scientific way to address the issue than that blog.

robp

RGM wrote: »

I can't think of a less scientific way to address the issue than that blog.

That was my feeling exactly. I wonder has there been any modern era craniometric studies of Irish people. Might test it more thoroughly.

enfield

This may be of interest, from "The Anglicized Words of Irish Placenames" by Tom Burnell;
Blaskets, now spelled blascóid, on old maps, blaset, brasch, brascher, meaning not given. In a ships record of 1597 it was named ‘Yslas de Blasques’ and that the natives there spoke Spanish (Basque?). It has also been suggested that its origin may be from the Norse word brasker, meaning a dangerous place.

RGM

robp wrote: »

That was my feeling exactly. I wonder has there been any modern era craniometric studies of Irish people. Might test it more thoroughly.

Well, it's not just that though. I think the underlying question has to do with the historical relation between the Irish and the Basques. In an era where DNA studies are coming into their own, trying to approach that idea by analyzing photos that (I'm guessing) were pulled off Facebook seems really silly. Not only that, but even comparing facial attributes in a scientific setting would be questionable considering how different the average Irishman of today is than the people who were in Ireland a few thousand years ago. There have been waves of other populations that have crashed ashore during that time, each altering the genetic makeup of the natives.

enigmatical

doolox wrote: »

...that the basques are a very competent, able and intelligent people who took on the Spanish and are still alive to talk about it they are more comparable to the Dutch than the Irish.

It is reckoned that the Basques were fishing off the grand banks 50 yrs before Columbus discovered the New world in 1492 but kept it secret to avoid competition from other maritime nations.

Vasco da Gama the Portuguese sailor who sailed around Africa to India wan also originally Basque.

I do not think the Irish are remotely related to the Basques, if we were we would probably be in the top jobs in London in charge of a united, prosperous and well functioning North Atlantic Islands rather than the failed bitter and dysfunctional nationette that we are today.

What's with the Ireland bashing response?

I've lived in Euskadi and it is somewhere that while it may not have a direct cultural link with Ireland, it has a lot of connections in a more modern sense as the two places faced very similar challenges being run by large, imperial neighbours for centuries.

Economically, the Basque Country is in a similar or worse situation than Ireland. Massive, unsustainable property bubble, especially in Bilbao and several bust banks with probably more to come yet.

It has about 15% unemployment and that's not reducing.

It's also fully part of Spain as an autonomous province much like Northern Ireland or Scotland is part of the UK. So, I'm not sure why you're slagging off Ireland which actually achieved independence from what was then the world's largest and most powerful empire. The Basque Country is still 100% part of Spain and France last time I checked!

It also had a very similar toxic relationship with the Catholic Church to Ireland which has resulted in similar scandals like thousands of forced, illegal adoptions etc etc

Spain also has over 25% unemployment and far worse prospects for recovery than Ireland in many respects.

As for crossing the Atlantic, bear in mind that an Irish crew and St Brendan are reputed to have reached North America in the in the 6th century, hundreds of years before Columbus
The vikings also had a failed settlement in North America. They were possibly driven out by the extremely harsh winter having arrived during a very pleasant Canadian summer.

I'm not trying to slag of the Basque country but there's really no need to just do the random Ireland bashing.

Irish people have done extremely well all over the world and at home as have Basques!

The two places have very large diaspora too and similar stories of economically and politically driven emigration.

I very much think in general most Irish and Basque people share at least a sense of solidarity, similar to that shared with Scotland, Wales and Brittany etc!

That was always my experience of the Basque Country and Navarra.

DEFTLEFTHAND

'The Black Irish' A misleading name probably routed in Racism. Certain native Irish have dark features, sallow skin, dark hair and eyes. The 'Spanish Armada gene' is another name for it I've heard.

It's rare but you do see it. They're still obviously Caucasian, but here in Ireland they could pass as Spaniards or Italians. The sallow tone.

odds_on

When I was young, many, many years ago, in the hazy distant past, I went to some kind of talk / lecture by a person from the National Library of Ireland and there was some comment that the Irish were related to the Spanish. Unfortunately. I can't remember the details.

enigmatical

I saw a documentary on TV several years ago that did a trace of movement of people over the centuries into Britain and Ireland.

The majority of our DNA markers link to a population that moved up from northern Spain along the West of France, up the North of France and into Britain and Ireland.

There were other later influences from other movements of people but that seems to be the group that made up most of our gene pool.

Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Northern England also shared almost identical gene pools despite the political history in recent centuries and despite the language history.

Southern England had a bigger mix add it had been invaded a lot more frequently by germanic tribes, the Romans etc etc

So, we probably do have a very long link to the Basque country but so do the British and French.

It's not really very surprising that a population would have migrated along the West Coast of Europe like that though. It's a more obvious way of travelling than over land and high mountains etc so it's unsurprising that we are all connected.

robp

RGM wrote: »

Well, it's not just that though. I think the underlying question has to do with the historical relation between the Irish and the Basques. In an era where DNA studies are coming into their own, trying to approach that idea by analyzing photos that (I'm guessing) were pulled off Facebook seems really silly. Not only that, but even comparing facial attributes in a scientific setting would be questionable considering how different the average Irishman of today is than the people who were in Ireland a few thousand years ago. There have been waves of other populations that have crashed ashore during that time, each altering the genetic makeup of the natives.

Those facebook pictures could easily be of people with all sorts of influences eg Russian mothers. Cranometric studies of modern and ancient Irish people might help. The public and even some archaeologists have little faith in craniometrics but for establishing genetic relationships at a population level (not an individual level) it has been proved. DNA studies are very useful but so far haven't tackled the problem. Perhaps aDNA would though. aDNA is pretty uncommon in Irish studies. I can only think of the 2008 Glencurran study. I am not sure if that is even published yet.

Ipso

RGM wrote: »

I can't think of a less scientific way to address the issue than that blog.

The only scientic way is to get people who know they have absolutely no outside their area ancestry in recent times snd that is pretty much impossible.

Ipso

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

The 'Spanish Armada gene' is another name for it I've heard.

No such gene exists unless someone was able to trace living relatives of crew members and test them.

RGM

Ipso wrote: »

The only scientic way is to get people who know they have absolutely no outside their area ancestry in recent times snd that is pretty much impossible.

It's really not though.

Ipso

Very difficult at the least.

robp

I have to correct myself and say actually there has been attempts to study head type to study population genetics from a scientific statistical approach. At least two attempts I could find.

Brothwell, D. 1985. Variation in early Irish populations: a brief survey of the evidence. Ulster Journal of Archaeology, 48, 5–9.

Weets, Jaimin David. 2004.A dental anthropological approach to issues of migration and population continuity in ancient Ireland. PhD thesis.

pedroeibar1

I might do a PhD meself on that basis!

I mean the fundamentals are there - the phrenological aspects in those photographs on the blog indicate that the Basque and Irish peoples are definitely endowed with a distinctly similar type of character, & possess several remarkable qualities in common. Both peoples have heads, therefore indicating brains; that they are facing forward shows their natural sagacity and forethought with a share of vitality. The generally prominent frontal development at the foreheads bespeaks fine intellectual capacity. They appear observant and inquisitive. The upper portion of their brows is full & broad, (I did not say Thick!) suggesting deep reflective power. Similarly, the width of their heads at the temples is in indication of constructive talent. However, their heads are full in the crown, causing instability, due to a sense of lack of balance.

The fact that Gall and his ilk were laughed at as early as 1800 seems to have escaped the blogger. Absolute tosh IMO.

Ipso

There was a survey done of Irish people in the 1920's or 1930's by some one called Earnest Hooton.
It was supposed to be very thourough and covered things like eye color, complexion, hair colour, build etc
I can't find anything online about the results though

Here is a study looking at pigmentation in four Europe countries including Ireland.
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/11/gwas-study-of-pigmentation-in-four.html?m=1

That other blog mightn't be the most scientific but neither is the idea that Irish and Iberians look alike.