Haswell first impressions.

game4it70

My 4670k and MSI Z87-GD65 GAMING arrived today

I have it setup on my desk atm as i'm trying to get round to re-painting my case.

I tried to see if i could get away with not installing win7 again but i couldn't even get my mouse or keyboard to work fully. As soon as it got to windows splash screen they stopped working.
In safe mode they worked but drivers from disk wouldn't install :mad:

As soon as the fresh windows install was done i started trying to get an idea of what sort of overclock i might get and how high the temps where going to be.

At 4.4ghz with 1.2v.
I have done a 30min Aida64 stress test and a 30 min stress test with MI 63-66c across the cores but averaged was more like 60c most of the time during the tests.My ambient temps i don't know but the room is not that warm for the day where having
Its very early yet to tell if thats even fully stable but i'm just to damn impatient to try for longer.
I want to get a better idea of how high it might go before i try fine tune it.

At 4.5ghz with 1.225v.
Just 10 mins into a test now and hitting max core of 70c

Lol it so needs to be delided as there is no heat in my tubing and the air coming out of rad is cool.

Thats all for now,i'll add more info over the next few days.
Feel free to ask any questions or for me to run any benches that i can.

jumbobreakfast

Either my fever is making me dumb or you've posted the wrong mobo model I got a mini heart-attack when I saw a z77 paired with a Haswell and thought that I'd made a mistake lol. Sounds like you might have got a good chip. I went for components myself in the end as I couldnt wait another two weeks for the bundle that I wanted. Hopefully I'll have similar results to you, Haswells kinda suck. But hopefully it will show some improvement in Arma 3 versus my i7 950

What cooler are you using? I have a Kuhler 920 and hope that I have all the brackets to make it fit socket 1155/1150

Serephucus

Wow, the temps fairly spiked there... Wondering about cooling too.

game4it70

jumbobreakfast wrote: »

Either my fever is making me dumb or you've posted the wrong mobo model I got a mini heart-attack when I saw a z77 paired with a Haswell and thought that I'd made a mistake lol. Sounds like you might have got a good chip. I went for components myself in the end as I couldnt wait another two weeks for the bundle that I wanted. Hopefully I'll have similar results to you, Haswells kinda suck. But hopefully it will show some improvement in Arma 3 versus my i7 950

What cooler are you using? I have a Kuhler 920 and hope that I have all the brackets to make it fit socket 1155/1150

Yes sorry about the mobo mix up,fixed now
Not so sure about how good the chip is.I passed an hour of Aida64 but got a bsod when doing a window update.I was @4.5 with 1.255v so i'll try again tomorrow.
I have a custom water loop so going by my results 1.2-1.23 would be the limit of the Kuhler if at around the same clocks as me.
I've seen big swings with temp to volts ratio on different chips though.

Serephucus wrote: »

Wow, the temps fairly spiked there... Wondering about cooling too.

Yeah the seem to average between 5-8c lower than max temp during testing but they do jump up for a very short time randomly.

I cant even boot to windows at 4.6 with 1.3v so lots of tweaking to do i think yet.

tuxy

Is Aida64 considered a good stress test?

I normally run intel burn test on max for 10 runs to give a fairly quick indication of stability then run prime95 for a few hours.

game4it70

tuxy wrote: »

Is Aida64 considered a good stress test?

I normally run intel burn test on max for 10 runs to give a fairly quick indication of stability then run prime95 for a few hours.

I had never used it before but from what i've read seems to be good for haswell.

IBT and prime would be how i normally test too.

jumbobreakfast

I know this is for a 4770K but gives an idea of the problems with Haswell and it's smaller size leading to meltdown:
http://techreport.com/review/24889/haswell-overclocked-the-core-i7-4770k-at-4-7ghz

Of the processors Asus has tested, 70% hit 4.5GHz, 30% reached 4.6GHz, and 20% made 4.7GHz. Only 10% were stable at 4.8GHz. Heat is reportedly the limiting factor, and Asus recommends using a dual-fan water cooler to prevent thermal throttling past about 4.5GHz or 1.25V. Going beyond 1.35V is apparently problematic even for high-end water coolers.

I think de-lidding will definitely be more popular with this series, maybe I should have waited for Ivybridge-E?

game4it70

jumbobreakfast wrote: »

I know this is for a 4770K but gives an idea of the problems with Haswell and it's smaller size leading to meltdown:
http://techreport.com/review/24889/haswell-overclocked-the-core-i7-4770k-at-4-7ghz



I think de-lidding will definitely be more popular with this series, maybe I should have waited for Ivybridge-E?

I had seen that about the 4770k's but i'd of thought the 4670k's would run slightly cooler with no HT.

4.5 does look like the sweet spot for most people.
Clock for clock though that would be about the same as an Ivy at 4.7.

I still dont know if i will delid mine yet,will have to wait and see how high i can go first.

Ivybridge-E does look good on paper but i thought there going to be the last chip for skt 2011?

NTMK

game4it70 wrote: »

Ivybridge-E does look good on paper but i thought there going to be the last chip for skt 2011?

ya ivy-e is the last gen for 2011. its looking highly likely Haswell-e will be runing DDR4 so ill be expecting a change in socket at the very least

game4it70

Well progress isn't as good as i would like.
I'm stuck @ 4.5ghz using 1.265v
Temps are nasty with a max of 77c considering my cooling.

I have tried even 4.55ghz and lower but it just wont play ball.
Max Vcore i've tried is 1.36v (84c) so thats as high as i'm willing to go untill there is more info on safe volts out there.

So i think a delid is not worth it as i wont gain a higher OC.

I have my ram now up to its default speed (1866Mhz) so will try and get a decent OC on that next.

Gumbi

What's your cooling setup?

marco_polo

jumbobreakfast wrote: »

....

I think de-lidding will definitely be more popular with this series, maybe I should have waited for Ivybridge-E?

Call me cynical but perhaps that is one reason Haswell is so meh when it comes to overclocking?

game4it70

Gumbi wrote: »

What's your cooling setup?

I'm have my water cooling setup on my desk atm with a ThermoChill PA 120.4 rad with 3 gentle typhoons running at about 1300rpms.
I do have my gpu in the loop also but its idle when stress testing so i doubt its adding to much heat.

Serephucus

I'm still on the fence about this, I think.

I think we can all agree that Haswell's OCing is underwhelming at best. Given though that I'd be de-lidding my processor either way for thermal reasons, I'm not sure what's best.

Let's say my de-lidded 3570K does around 4.9, and a de-lidded 4670K can manage 4.6. That's in and around equal performance, but wouldn't the 3570K still be getting lower load temps?

game4it70

Well if this helps you,
I should have kept my Z77 gene and gotten an Ivy instead

Even with the silicon lottery aside i feel the bios on the asus was much better than on this msi i have now.

Kinda made my bed now so....

Serephucus

You can't return the CPU and board? You haven't had it that long.

game4it70

Serephucus wrote: »

You can't return the CPU and board? You haven't had it that long.

Got it on thursday so i suppose i could but kinda bad to return it just because it cant oc as high as i'd like

Oh and i'd say Ivy would be better with temps in general bar a few good haswells temp wise.

Taken from OCUK forums,

My 4670k at 4.6ghz at 1.25volts is getting temps of around 70 both with AIDA and OCCT. Cooled with the Dark Rock Pro SR1 which is a mid range cooler.

Makes me feel :mad: that he beats my cooling.

Serephucus

It doesn't perform like you want. To me that's a perfectly valid reason to return it. I've returned hardware for far less. :P

One of the things that's pushing more towards Haswell is the boards coming out. Asus' ROG ITX one for instance. It's not that important I suppose. Even with the onboard audio is better, I probably wouldn't use it anyway.

The other thing is that because of the exposed traces with Haswell, you have to use something like MX-4 vs. the liquid metal stuff that all the Ivy delidders use, which has better thermal conductivity. How much this impacts performance I don't actually know, but something to consider I guess.

game4it70

The ROG ITX looks very good imo.

There using the liquid metal on the die and mx4 to insulate the resistors.
The liquid metal seems to get an extra 7-10c over just mx4 on the die.

NTMK

well it looks like im going ivy (again:o). haswell seems to not have any real advantage over ivy when you take heat into account imo.

now to find me a cheap 3770 and z77 gene:)

beno619

NTMK wrote: »

well it looks like im going ivy (again:o). haswell seems to not have any real advantage over ivy when you take heat into account imo.

now to find me a cheap 3770 and z77 gene:)

Me too..
Haswell doesn't seem worth the premium.
The K series are gimped in overclocking potential and miss extensions like AVX that their cheaper brothers have.
Idle power consumption improvements are cancelled out by load power increases.
Have they actually improved anything with the K series ?

Tea_Bag

Im not really pushed by haswell. honest to god ive been running my 3570K at stock for the last few months while the rig is in (usable) limbo, and ive only seen a handful of fps dips in game (BF3 only though) that ive even remembered that im not at 4.5 any more. every other games has been running smooth as butter.

the boards do interest me though. 6 SATA3 ports is about bloody time. 6 ports on ITX is excellent and very tempting for my server too.

NTMK

Tea_Bag wrote: »

Im not really pushed by haswell. honest to god ive been running my 3570K at stock for the last few months while the rig is in (usable) limbo.

Has your rig ever been out of limbo? I think your current set up is the longest youve gone without changing since your GTX460 rig

game4it70

I just installed and played bf3 for about 30 mins.

Cpu was @ 4.5Ghz with 1.265v
Gpu was running @ about 1220 on the core and 1600 on the memory with 1.2v

The pump and fans where on full.
Max core on cpu was 64c
Gpu max was 51c

I was not impressed by my temps on the cpu as the room is not that warm at all today.
At least this time there was decent transfer of heat albeit from the gpu as tubing was actually warm.

I've reseated the cpu block 3 times so i'm fairly sure that temps are as good as i will get without a delid.I'm getting more tempted to do it now as there is no way i want to run fans high when gaming as i'm watercooling for silence more so than lower temps.

As for the overclock i just cant get over 4.5ghz stable without trying above 1.36v.I've tried using base clock too but that needs even more vcore.

The motherboard bios/uefi is unstable sometimes too and i have a few niggles in windows even though its passed all the tests i've done.

game4it70

Well i finally got round to delidding the cpu.
Used the hammer and vice method.

Happy to say it still works,phew

I redid my cooling on my desk yesterday to make it easier to test temp differences.

I'm now using this.
Thermochill TA120.2
EK supreme hf.
D5 vario.
3x Akasa apache fans.
Have push/pull but one of the fan connectors is lose so only have 3 of them running for the tests.
Coollaboratory liquid ultra on the die,Chill factor 3 on the IHS.

I ran Intel extreme stress test for 30 mins each time to gauge temps.

Before.





After.



I'm fairly happy with the temps now but i will take the IHS off again in a couple of days to see if it was applied well.

Serephucus

Happy days!

I'll be doing this as soon as soon as I order some CLU. I think I'll run it lidded for a bit in-loop first, just because I want to accurately be able to compare temperatures, as my loop will change a good bit moving to the Prodigy. (Isn't up and running yet, hopefully end-of-day today)

Good to see though, ~14°C drop on average.

game4it70

Yeah get the prodigy done first as it much better to try get good comparisons.

I got that vice in homebase @ 13.99e.
Its not great tbh as the clamps holding the chip had a fair bit of movement.

It was a major hassle getting the lid off with that movement.The effing chip kept coming lose becasue of it.
It fell out of the vice at one stage but was like a ninja braking its fall with my foot
I would say i hit the thing about 15+ times because of the vice :eek:
You more than welcome to try it if you want.I wouldn't recommend it though.

I have to say going from a quad to a double rad and taking the 7970 out of the loop has had a definite/strange effect on temps.
The EK gpu block must be alot more restrictive than i actually thought as flow is very noticeably faster while looking in the res.
Temps have dropped about 3c also since yesterday.

On a side not my newish phobya water temp sensor leaked like a b**ch yesterday when i start to fill the res after rebuilding.
Grrrr as i wanted to compare water temps to the old tests i had done. :mad:

Serephucus

I'll say this much: I have a new found respect for people's god-awful looking Dremel cuts to cases. It's far harder than it looks to cut with the thing.

Parts mostly in, tubing work started. Having a bit of a problem finding space for the 3.5" drive, think the whole thing will be pretty ghetto. Will get "before" temps hopefully tomorrow evening once everything settles out. Will order CLU then, and shop around for a vice*.

Don't you just hate it when one small part continually leaks and just refuses to play nice? That was a single fitting in my 600T loop and I didn't have any spare!!!, so I know your pain.

It's going to be interesting for me as well, going from 200+240+120 to 240+120. Here's hoping temps don't rise too much.

*Just had a thought: Might see if my secondary school's woodwork rooms are open, just use one of the vices there. The teacher and I were on pretty friendly terms when I left, I'm sure he wouldn't mind (though I might get a few really weird looks).

game4it70

Never used a dremel before so cant comment but ghetto is good :P

Look forward to pics of the build.
That would be great if you could get use of a good vice in the school.

You shouldn't see to much temp difference losing the 200 unless you had a very good fan on it.I didn't think there where any good 200mm rad fans out there.

Serephucus

It looks sort of like I kindly asked Wolverine to help me with the cuts, put it that way.

There aren't any good 200mm fans (there isn't really anything good when you go bigger than 140mm, except for a couple of Silverstone ones) I was more just thinking pure surface area.

NTMK

Serephucus wrote: »

I'll say this much: I have a new found respect for people's god-awful looking Dremel cuts to cases. It's far harder than it looks to cut with the thing.

that is why i mark out exactly what cuts i want to make no matter how small and i use a practice bit of sheet metal