Fine Gaels response to getting rid of the Seanad

cfc.forever

Out of my curiousity I asked the following question to John Paul Phelan I've got a quick question. How do you feel about abolishing the Seanad as a former Seanad Member? Honest opinion please, he replied with the following "
Why would I not give an honest opinion?? If the choice is abolition or retention in its current format then it should be abolished. I think tho that it should be completely reformed but retained"

I responded with the following " Well I wanted you to speak on behalf of yourself and not Enda Kenny who wants to get rid of it, I think a reform of the Seanad is a good idea, but getting rid of the seanad would be total nonsense, in my opinion the Seanad is a good place for a TD to start off and needs to be reformed. I just don't see why it took the government so long to realise that the Seanad needed to be reformed, I hope that people vote against this in the referendum, I think they will vote against it." and his closing statement was "
It's hard to know what way people will vote. Ultimately they should decide what format the oireachtas takes"


I'm trying to understand the message hes bringing across hes trying to say decide whatever the government decide in a less-noticeable way, he's making sure he gets his wording right. What do you think about his opinion? Do you think Enda Kenny is trying to influence fellow members of Fine Gael to support his views? John Paul Phelan wants a reform and yet I heard on RTE News, the political party was in favour of it, all the party.

I'm glad I've asked him the question, what do you think about his opinion?

An Claidheamh

I think his opinion is fair enough.

We all know that most people in the 3 main parties have no principles or don't want to speak out.

Of course, his livelihood will be gone if the Seanad is abolished, assuming he doesn't get elected as a TD.

I would be for retention. Most republics have two chambers. If they want to save money the government must take a pay and pension cut along with high earning civil servants. Useless senators are most likely put there by the likes of FF, FG and Labour anyway!



Also, I don't trust FG and Labour.

jimmycrackcorm

What I think of his opinion is the same for everyone who give the same opinion. They all say it should be reformed yet no one has an opinion as to what shape or form that reform should be.

MadYaker

Its not in the governments best interests to reform it. It'll make life a lot easier for them if its simply abolished.

michael999999

MadYaker wrote: »

Its not in the governments best interests to reform it. It'll make life a lot easier for them if its simply abolished.

Ya, the seanad made the governments life hell trying to oppose bring through the bank guarantee!

Oh wait a minute... that's right, they done sweet FA to oppose it. Mainly because most of them are all appointed as jobs for the boy by fiaana fail!

Cody Pomeray

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

What I think of his opinion is the same for everyone who give the same opinion. They all say it should be reformed yet no one has an opinion as to what shape or form that reform should be.

There are plenty of suggestions if you look around. Here is the consultation paper from the Seanad Reform group
http://issuu.com/seanadreform/docs/seanadreform

Just google Michael McDowell seanad/ Katherine Zappone Seanad to view alternative suggestions.

There have been various contributions on TV and radio. Plenty on here too.

If someone is suggesting they haven't seen any alternatives maybe they haven't been looking hard enough.

ressem

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

What I think of his opinion is the same for everyone who give the same opinion. They all say it should be reformed yet no one has an opinion as to what shape or form that reform should be.

This is not correct. The bill below is going through the Dail this week, to open up Seanad voting to the entire electorate, cut pay and make other changes.

http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=23624&&CatID=59 wrote:

Bill Number 59 of 2013
Sponsored by Deputy Stephen S. Donnelly and Deputy Noel Grealish and Deputy Finian McGrath and Deputy Mattie McGrath and Deputy Shane Ross
Source: Private Member
Method: Introduced
Status: New Bill

Bill entitled an Act to reform the system of electing the elected members of Seanad Éireann as provided for in Article 18.10 of the Constitution by extending the right to vote to all persons entitled to vote in elections for Dáil Éireann, and to certain other persons resident in the State and to persons resident in Northern Ireland who qualify for Irish Citizenship and to Irish Citizens resident abroad who hold Irish Passports, and to provide for gender equality in the election of the elected members of Seanad Éireann, and to make provision for the exercise by Seanad Éireann of powers relating to scrutiny of EU Legislative proposals and for the holding of inquiries and the receipt of citizens’ petitions, and for the repeal of certain Acts relating to Seanad Éireann, and to provide for related matters

There are coherent arguments against parts of the bill such as
http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/column-seanad-reform-suggestions-are-practical-but-limit-any-real-bicameral-changes-912023-May2013/

I completely disagree with Kenny, Varadkar and Pascal Donaghue's dishonest spin of abolition or "no change".

Rightwing

The more politicians they get rid of the better. Scrap the seanad, and axe 50% of TDs while you're at it.

Noreen1

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

What I think of his opinion is the same for everyone who give the same opinion. They all say it should be reformed yet no one has an opinion as to what shape or form that reform should be.

Here's my opinion on what that reform should be, for what it's worth:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056935715&page=2

Noreen1 wrote: »

The question I would tend to ask is why FG would want to abolish the Seanad, rather than reform it, and improve the Democratic process in so doing?

The problem with the Seanad, imo, is the fact that there are too many "party members" in business, in the first place.

The other problem, is that the Seanad is seen by some members as a reward, in the form of a rather exclusive "club" for "party members" or "friends", for that matter.

That was never what the Seanad was intended as.

It was intended as a check against the possible excesses of Government.
Functioning properly, it would be an excellent means of ensuring the best interests of the people were always considered by Government when enacting new legislation.

I would argue that the Seanad is in desperate need of reform - beginning with direct election of its members by the electorate, followed by giving the Seanad more power to directly stop, rather than delay, new legislation, where there is reason to believe that such legislation would cause an erosion of the democratic rights of the people, or cause undue hardship, a la "Bank Bailouts".

I would further propose that Senators be subject to direct Democracy, where they can be recalled by the electorate if they are not doing the job they were elected to do. (For the record, I'm strongly in favour of TDs also being subject to a recall system!).
I also propose that advice from Supreme Court judges (yes, more than one!) should be available to members of the Seanad, on request, whenever they consider new legislation. Just think what effect such a system would have had on the Bank Guarantee? Not to mention pressure from outside sources to maintain such a guarantee?

Democracy in Ireland could be vastly improved.
Right now, all the power pretty much lies in the hands of the Cabinet.
"Ordinary" TDs are subject to the party whip, and have little or no collective power. They are basically expected to be "Yes" men, who do what they're told, - or else!

The abolishment of the Seanad (rather than desperately needed reform) would only concentrate more power in the hands of the few.
IMO, this is a very unwise, even potentially dangerous, step to take.

As the saying goes: "Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely."

Sierra Oscar

Who is Enda actually expecting to canvass for this? The opposition are all opposing the referendum, whilst some parliamentary party members in both FG & Labour have already stated that they will actively campaign against the referendum.

I can't see too many backbenchers campaigning for the referendum, and the party members in both FG & Labour are against the proposal as far as I can see. So who will be knocking on the doorsteps for Enda? It is a bit of a bizarre situation, especially considering those opposed to the referendum seem to be organizing into big campaign movements.

nuac

michael999999 wrote: »

Ya, the seanad made the governments life hell trying to oppose bring through the bank guarantee!

Oh wait a minute... that's right, they done sweet FA to oppose it. Mainly because most of them are all appointed as jobs for the boy by fiaana fail!

All parties involved in Senate nominations and elections, plus the 11 nominated by An Taoiseach are hardly FF

The senate is a joke. A good start for politicians? Yeah, for politicians who cant get elected

michael999999

nuac wrote: »

All parties involved in Senate nominations and elections, plus the 11 nominated by An Taoiseach are hardly FF

Your right, its a dumping ground for both parties to send there washed up political buddies to leech off the public purse some more!

RATM

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Who is Enda actually expecting to canvass for this? The opposition are all opposing the referendum, whilst some parliamentary party members in both FG & Labour have already stated that they will actively campaign against the referendum.

I can't see too many backbenchers campaigning for the referendum, and the party members in both FG & Labour are against the proposal as far as I can see. So who will be knocking on the doorsteps for Enda? It is a bit of a bizarre situation, especially considering those opposed to the referendum seem to be organizing into big campaign movements.

That's the exact question I asked myself before sticking a tenner at 7/2 on the referendum being rejected. I can't really see anyone from FG shouting from the rooftops about abolishing it whereas the No side are going to be very vocal. But even worse for Enda is that everyone is going to be remarking how he is on about abolishing the Seanad and not reforming the Dail as part of his 'political reform'. He is trying to sell the Irish people a three card trick and I don't think they're going to buy it from him. If he loses this it could seriously undermine his leadership and turn out to be the beginning of the end for Enda.