Thoughts on hindsight (Spoilers for those that haven’t watched all of S03 so far)

K_user

The Red Wedding was a shock to most non-readers and you can understand why. However if you look back over the season, there have been a few clues that all was not right in the Stark camp.

Some have mentioned the fact that Winterfell was sacked, but we don’t know by whom. Others have mentioned that Bolton was chummy with the Kingslayer and set him free.

But there are other hints, IMHO:

Once KL was saved, why didn’t Tywin ride out again? In Season 2 he was held up in a falling down keep. Pouring over maps, talking about the “young wolf”, and wondering about his own legacy. By Season 3 he was playing mind games as Hand of the King. Arranging marriages, while shoring up power. It was if Rob was no longer an issue.

Gbear

I suppose one thing I'd mention is that the Lannisters suffered significant losses - Jamie's army in season 1, the battle at the start of season 2 and Edmure's "victory" at the mill.

It's also important to point out that although the Tyrells are allies the Lannisters don't trust them. Don't think Tywin would fancy leaving KL in their hands.

Paddy Cow

Gbear wrote: »

I suppose one thing I'd mention is that the Lannisters suffered significant losses - Jamie's army in season 1, the battle at the start of season 2 and Edmure's "victory" at the mill.

It's also important to point out that although the Tyrells are allies the Lannisters don't trust them. Don't think Tywin would fancy leaving KL in their hands.

Plus Tywin dosn't trust Cersei either and flat out told her this to her face and said she's not as smart as she likes to think she is. She has no control over Joffrey and it was under her watch that Joffrey had Ned beheaded, rather than sending him to the wall. When Cersei whines that Margery is able to manipulate Joffrey, Tywin thinks it is a good thing and berates Cersei for not being able to do the same. I think a large part of the reason he wants to marry her to Loras is so that he can ship her off to Highgarden and be rid of her dangerous stupidity and the rumours which follow her. This also leaves him in a stronger position to control Joffrey.

He begrudgingly recognises that Tyrion is useful, which is why he made him master of coin. He is happy to keep Tyrion in King's Landing but won't admit it outright.

Syferus

It'll be interesting to see how Tywin tries to deal with the thorny issue of his successor. It seems almost a given someone is going to knife him sooner or later and even though Jaime is still probably the obvious choice the whole Kingsguard appointment complicates the situation. It looks as though either Jaime or Tyrion would be a far more likeable head than Tywin and would likely soften the viewer's dislike of the family.

Hopefully we get some Jaime-Joffrey face time next week because that'll be pretty entertaining, nevermind awkward.

Paddy Cow

Syferus wrote: »

It'll be interesting to see how Tywin tries to deal with the thorny issue of his successor. It seems almost a given someone is going to knife him sooner or later and even though Jaime is still probably the obvious choice the whole Kingsguard appointment complicates the situation. It looks as though either Jaime or Tyrion would be a far more likeable head than Tywin and would likely soften the viewer's dislike of the family.

Hopefully we get some Jaime-Joffrey face time next week because that'll be pretty entertaining, nevermind awkward.

Tywin sees his successor (for Casterly Rock) through Tyrion and Sansa. He has accepted that Jamie won't provide him with an heir and as much as he hates Tyrion, he was hell bent on him doing the deed with Sansa on their wedding night and getting her pregnant.

HUGE SPOILERS FROM THE BOOKS IN ALL SPOILERED POSTS (and speculation on my part) PLEASE DO NOT READ IF YOU ARE NOT UP TO DATE

The Kingsguard have always served for life but Joffrey changed those rules when he fired Ser Barristan and used the excuse of him being too old. Can we really consider Jamie a member of the King's guard as he has been away for so long and he no longer has a hand?

It has been alluded to in the books that Cersei is strangled by Jamie. We have not yet seen in the books what circumstances lead to this but we do see a breakdown in their relationship. From the beginning, Cersie was the one in contol. She convinced Jamie to become a member of the King's Guard and Jamie went along with it. He has said that the one oath he kept was to Cersei but she has not been so faithful and shagged many a substitute for Jamie.

From what I remember from the books, while Cersei is still hell bent on ruling at any cost, Jamie changes and takes on a more chivalrous role, mainly due to his desire to live up to the oath he promised to Catelyn and the influence Brienne has on him. He even admits that Cersei is not a good mother and wants to be a good infulence on Tommen's life before Cersei turns him into another Joffrey.

Things turn very sour between Cersei and Jamie and while it hasn't been written yet, I can't wait to see it turns out.

el dude

Why wasn't Robb on more of an offensive too? It felt like the whole war was put on hiatus for whatever reason.

Witcher

el dude wrote: »

Why wasn't Robb on more of an offensive too? It felt like the whole war was put on hiatus for whatever reason.

Royal armies were running from him, that's why he was turning on Casterly Rock, as he said himself...that couldn't run. A lot of Robb's plans hinged on Stannis pushing home the offensive on Kings Landing but when he was thrown back it undermined his plans to an extent.

Paddy Cow

el dude wrote: »

Why wasn't Robb on more of an offensive too? It felt like the whole war was put on hiatus for whatever reason.

Robb was never a real player in the war. He only went to war to avenge his father being beheaded. His bannermen rose up behind him in the pursuit of justice. Even after he was named King of the North and before he was married to Talisa, he admitted to her that he had no desire to be the King of all Seven Kingdoms and after the war he had no idea what was going to happen.

All Robb could see was taking down the Lannisters and not the bigger picture. This was his downfall. Initially he won many battles but ultimately he could not win overall without having a clear plan.

As much as I hate Roose Bolton, I imagine that viewers would have a very different image of him if the story had been told from his side. He was been lead by a headstrong, inexperienced general who had proven himself to be a weak leader who couldn't keep his oath's and jeopardised his whole army with his selfish actions. As Catelyn pointed out when Robb asked for her advise, there was a strong possibility that everyone under Robb's command would've died had they tried to take Casterly Rock. Robb wouldn't couldn't see the danger and expected honor to win the war. He lost for the same reasons his father lost - he was a good general but a sh!te politician.

Syferus

Hard to like Roose, his turn was opportunistic power grabbing, plain and simple. His little anecdote about his wife is pretty much a crystallisation of what he's all about. Even less likeable than Tywin. We haven't even got to the Boltons' love of torture that makes Tywin look positively reformist by comparison.

Paddy Cow

Syferus wrote: »

Hard to like Roose, his turn was opportunistic power grabbing, plain and simple. His little anecdote about his wive is pretty much a crystallisation of what he's all about. Even less likeable than Tywin. We haven't even got to the Boltons' love of torture that makes Tywin look positively reformist by comparison.

I'm not saying that Bolton wasn't cruel or lacking in loyality but the Starks aren't angels either. They were willing to align themsleves with the Freys just to get what they wanted, despite knowing how treacherous the Frey's are. Throughout the history of Westeros, many families have risen and fallen based on oppourtunities. The Starks and Lannisters were once Kings until they bent the knee to the Targaryens.

I'm just wondering how different we would feel about Lord Bolton if the story was told from his point of view? (This is a hindsight thread afterall.) We have a vengeful young Lord from the North who declares war on the Lannisters. He is crowned King despite not wanting to be King and has no idea what to do after the war is won. His only goal is vengence and to do this he has to sacrifice his bannermen. He is very young and makes a load of naive political mistakes which impacts on his bannermen.

They loose faith in him and plot to overthrow him and side with the winning side. As much as Lord Bolton repulses me, I can see how he jumped sides. After the battle where Jamie was captured, Robb said something along the lines of "I sent two thousand men to be slaughtered today". Would you have faith in Robbs army, knowing that you could be sent off as expendable pawns? The Starks were always painted as the "good people" but they were just as flawed as the rest, only they managed to hide their self serving side better.

As to the Bolton's love of torture, Cersei said something about Robert along the lines of "he was a drunkard and a fool but he never enjoyed cruelty". That to me seperates the people who do cruel things in war (still not excusing them as Robert did sanction the death of children who he considered a threat) and the people who take joy in doing cruel things.

*Big spoiler from next book*

Lord Bolton will be cruel when he has to be but he doesn't do it for the sake of it, unlike his devil span, Ramsay. He truely is a bast@rd. When Ramsay is playing mind games with Theon, he basically tells Theon that no matter what answer he give him it won't be enough, because Ramsay does it because he likes it. That is truely sick and in the books we get to know his true depravity. If people thought the tv show was gory then then wouldn't be happy to see Ramsay deciding whether or not to flay girls alive, depending on if they gave him a good "chase".

mad turnip

I read in the TV description of the episode that Jeffory gives out to Tywin and shames him or something. what that means I have no idea.

This was on 13E satellite.

Paddy Cow

mad turnip wrote: »

I read in the TV description of the episode that Jeffory gives out to Tywin and shames him or something. what that means I have no idea.

This was on 13E satellite.

This is what I heard. Don't read if you don't want to know

Apparently he accused Tywin of being afraid of Aerys, which would be a big insult to Tywin. Whether true or not, it shows that Joffrey is starting to rebel against Tywin's control.

Syferus

The Starks are about as white as it gets in this world. Arya is about the only one of the children with a bad bone in her body, and I'd almost include Theon in that. Anyways, I hope Edmure somehow survives so he can go and deal with Caesar.

Err, Mance Rayder.

Gbear

Paddy Cow wrote: »

This is what I heard. Don't read if you don't want to know

Apparently he accused Tywin of being afraid of Aerys, which would be a big insult to Tywin. Whether true or not, it shows that Joffrey is starting to rebel against Tywin's control.

And is going to result in a jaw-droppingly awesome bitch-slapping of Joffrey. Don't **** with Tywin. Not even Kings get to do that.

The hints were always there this season on the show to what was going to happen to Rob. One thing to know about Tywin is that if he's not worried about something he has it sorted which was clear to see this season. His timing even before the Game of Thrones story begins is impeccable. In Robert's rebellion he waited until the last second to choose a side and in turn got his daughter wed to Robert. I could go into other stuff from the books but I won't just in case I spoil anything for anyone

Big Pussy Bonpensiero

Just in the process of rewatching the whole show, Uncle Benjen went missing in season 1 and was never found, I wonder if he'll have any future part to play in the show. If got turned into a wight Jon Snow may end up killing him.