Selection of finds going to the NMI

pueblo

The pics below represent part of a collection of finds from a 2km stretch of river near Kilkenny. They were all surface finds from the actual river bed (I wade, no diving!).

The selection of pottery sherds on the river bed would change completely whenever there was heavy flooding, the river bringing a whole new set of sherds to the stretch of river where I walk.

The NMI know about the finds and I am just waiting to get a free day to bring the stuff in. Most of it will have little or no interest for them but I did ask if they wanted to see it all and they said yes.

I'm interested to know anything about anything but in particular the pottery. Cheers

pueblo

dr gonzo

Absolutely stunning collection pueblo! Your threads are always a wonder to behold. Some lovely examples of bristol ham green pottery in there and. even more of a guess, leinster cooking ware... God help me when a person who knows about pottery comes on and reads this!

Too many things to look at! The axe in particular is a beaut (biased!). Quite hard to see but looks pecked...

KnapperHandy

Great finds Pueblo!

As a fan of prehistoric lithics,I particularly love the stone axe - it's fantastic!
Was this found in the river too?

I'm by no means an expert on pottery,but it looks like there's quite a significant amount of post-medieval pottery there.I agree with dr gonzo,there's a few sherds of Ham Green ware,dating from about 1100 to
1350 A.D.If you look at the 5th photo from the top,the green-coloured sherd in the middle of this group could be Ham Green Ware;it would appear to have a grey or dark-grey core which is very characteristic of this type of pottery;I could be wrong and it's difficult to be sure just looking at the photo(I've attached one of your photos and have encircled it in red).

One piece in particular caught my eye and that's the single rim sherd in the 6th photo down.It has a light green glaze and possibly a cream-coloured fabric which looks remarkably like Castleinch Ware.A complete and rare green glazed jug was found in the townland of Castleinch by a farmer,known as the 'Castleinch Jug',it is presently being displayed in the Rothe House Museum in Kilkenny City.The sherd you've found looks remarkably like a rim from a similar jug(I've attached an image of the 'Castleinch Jug' below to compare).Castleinch ware was a wheel-thrown pottery and dates from circa 1250 - 1350 A.D.Castleinch ware has been the principal glazed ware recovered at Kilkenny Castle too.

Hopefully there's a medieval pottery expert out there who could confirm or refute the above.It would be great if we could find out what other types of pottery are present in this assemblage too.

Thanks again Pueblo.

slowburner

Great stuff to look at.
There are just two finds that might be questionable.

This one looks a like a section of bent re-bar (reinforcing bar for concrete).



and this one looks as if it might be a modern plumbing fitting but I see you've labelled it as glass, so it might just be a trick of the light.

KnapperHandy

I agree slowburner,the bent piece of metal is rebar.

pueblo

thanks for the replies.

Knapperhandy, yes the stone axe was found in the river too. Some time back I found a flint blade in the same stretch of river, thread here http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=80694204 Thanks for the info on the Castleinch Jug.

Slowburner, I agree with you on the metal and glass bead being questionable, well, the bead is questionable the metal is certainly modern.

KnapperHandy

Hi pueblo,

Thanks for that!

I'm beginning to doubt my own analysis of the first pottery sherd I mentioned in my earlier post(the one encircled).I'm not at all confident that it is Ham Green ware after all;it looks a tad too yellow in colour and may be post-medieval in date.I was looking at the top right hand corner,where you can see a chip and what looks like an underlying grey-coloured core,which is typical of Ham Green type B.Hopefully someone else more experienced can let us know.

The 3rd. photo down,shows a green-coloured sherd(at the top),which looks like Ham Green type A ware,but this is quite rare in Ireland.It could just as easily be Kilkenny-type ware;excavations in Kilkenny City have produced significant numbers of this material,which also has a green glaze.

I love the flint flake - lovely patination!My guess for what it's worth,is it's possibly Neolithic.Did you get any word back from the NMI about it?

Cheers!

pueblo

KnapperHandy wrote: »

Hi pueblo,

Thanks for that!

I'm beginning to doubt my own analysis of the first pottery sherd I mentioned in my earlier post(the one encircled).I'm not at all confident that it is Ham Green ware after all;it looks a tad too yellow in colour and may be post-medieval in date.I was looking at the top right hand corner,where you can see a chip and what looks like an underlying grey-coloured core,which is typical of Ham Green type B.Hopefully someone else more experienced can let us know.

The 3rd. photo down,shows a green-coloured sherd(at the top),which looks like Ham Green type A ware,but this is quite rare in Ireland.It could just as easily be Kilkenny-type ware;excavations in Kilkenny City have produced significant numbers of this material,which also has a green glaze.

I love the flint flake - lovely patination!My guess for what it's worth,is it's possibly Neolithic.Did you get any word back from the NMI about it?

Cheers!

A local archaeologist said the flint was late mesolithic. Heard nothing back from the NMI about it.

pueblo

Below is a possible worked flint which I found in the river yesterday along with some more photos of the possible stone axe.

pueblo

Just giving this a bump, does anyone have any opinions on whether the 'possible flint' above looks like worked flint or not?

Cheers

KnapperHandy

Hi Pueblo,

This a difficult one to call!If it is a worked flake,then most of the images are showing what would be the dorsal side of the flake.Is there any chance you could post a pic of the other side?Basically,if it has a bulb of percussion,then the likelihood is it is a worked flake.If you look at the third image from the top,
your thumb is holding the proximal end;if you turn the flake over,you should feel a rounded bump,the 'bulb of percussion',in this area.

It's also difficult to see if there is real evidence of retouch;having been rolled around in the river for so long,the edges appear quite blunt and rounded.There is a visible ridge running from the proximal to the distal end,which is possible evidence of flake removal.The flattened area at the proximal end could be the striking platform,but it looks a little odd to me.

Jimmyarch and dr gonzo are far more experienced than I with prehistoric lithics,so hopefully they may be able to help too.

All the best.

pueblo

KnapperHandy wrote: »

Hi Pueblo,

This a difficult one to call!If it is a worked flake,then most of the images are showing what would be the dorsal side of the flake.Is there any chance you could post a pic of the other side?Basically,if it has a bulb of percussion,then the likelihood is it is a worked flake.If you look at the third image from the top,
your thumb is holding the proximal end;if you turn the flake over,you should feel a rounded bump,the 'bulb of percussion',in this area.

It's also difficult to see if there is real evidence of retouch;having been rolled around in the river for so long,the edges appear quite blunt and rounded.There is a visible ridge running from the proximal to the distal end,which is possible evidence of flake removal.The flattened area at the proximal end could be the striking platform,but it looks a little odd to me.

Jimmyarch and dr gonzo are far more experienced than I with prehistoric lithics,so hopefully they may be able to help too.

All the best.

Thanks Knapperhandy, I agree with all your comments, there is no real visible bulb of percussion but there is that sort of undulating 'rounded bump' on the ventral surface, but as you say this is most likely heavily rolled, though not necessarily so.

In the hand it feels like it could well have been a functioning tool.

The patination is very similar to a confirmed late mesolithic flint blade I found in the same area.

Is it actually flint? a possible core?

dr gonzo

Aye, its flint alright, and, although a little hard to tell in the pictures, looks worked too. Bit of a weird flake but great to see!

In the new pictures the axe looks like a possible porcellanite. Easier to tell when they are more thoroughly ground and polished then your example here but it seems likely. This axe, if indeed it is porcellanite, is one of 10500 similar examples found in Ireland; All of which were sourced, and perhaps produced, in Antrim. Fascinating as always Pueblo!

KnapperHandy

Thanks for letting us know dr gonzo.It is a weird looking flake and I wasn't entirely sure.

Apologies pueblo,I should have come back to you earlier only I was slightly sidetracked by a new forum members posts,as you're aware!

I was going to say that it's definitely not a core anyway;I've attached a couple of images below of cores I've recently found myself,but I'm sure you've seen cores before(in fact I may have posted a couple of these pics before,I'm not sure?).

dr gonzo

Are those ones youve found yourself Knapper? They are gorgeous.

Some of the things I love about looking at cores are perfectly summed up in what you have there. In the first pic you have the fantastic blade scar running longitudinally from the platform, and you can see that it would have been slightly helical. Getting good blades is always a testament to a knapper's skill (as well as the quality of material of course) and its a joy to see good knappers in action through the material they leave behind!

The second thing you can see in these that I love (would you know I was an archaeologist? ) is in the third pic where you can see the core being worked from multiple angles. We can actually look back through the fog of time and see a prehistoric person's mind at work, analysing the core, trying different locations to get usable flakes and blades, and perhaps ultimately calling it a day and tossing it. Fantastic!

pueblo

Thanks for the input Dr. Gonzo and Knapperhandy.

On the flake, good to know it's flint and it looks worked.

I wondered was the axe porcellanite, would be nice if it was.

Will update if/when I hear back from NMI!

KnapperHandy

Hi dr gonzo,

Yes,I've found these myself and all are from the same site.The first two pictured are now with the NMI.A colleague of yours,Graeme Warren,kindly had a look at these for me at the NMI and thinks the second one may be late mesolithic in date,but the first one was difficult to call.

Interesting that you should mention the flake scar on the first one;I've found two lovely blades,both approximately 40mm. long and less than 10mm. wide,which had that helical-like bend in the blade.They had no retouch and looked as if they'd just been struck and discarded.

The first and third cores have a very similar patination and possibly date to the same period.Although one looks like a single-platform core and the other multi-platform,they're nonetheless similar looking.The second core however,looks distinctly different both in patination and also in the way the core had been reduced.Would you hazard a guess at a date for any of them?I can send more pics if it helps?

I've attached more pics below of another one which was found just this spring on the same site(at least I think it's a core - it could be a crude scraper).Any observations would be deeply appreciated.

Thanks again.