Building Certs

HOPE100

Hi
I am thinking of buying a property that is 8 years old. Its was built by the current owner, planning was applied for and it seems the house is a little bit smaller that what was granted.
My issue is there is no certs with the house, no one was employed to come out during the build and sign off on it. They did get an architect out to give an opinion on the property last week, but this cannot ensure the foundations and materials used during the build was complied with.

Am I ok to go ahead and buy this property ????

sinnerboy

Your bank may decide that for you. Ask them.
But why would you wan't to buy such a building ?

sydthebeat

HOPE100 wrote: »

Hi
I am thinking of buying a property that is 8 years old. Its was built by the current owner, planning was applied for and it seems the house is a little bit smaller that what was granted.
My issue is there is no certs with the house, no one was employed to come out during the build and sign off on it. They did get an architect out to give an opinion on the property last week, but this cannot ensure the foundations and materials used during the build was complied with.

Am I ok to go ahead and buy this property ????

you can buy anything if your willing to spend money.
the question is are you buying a pup? find out how much it would cost to have a complete insured structural survey carried out on the property, including

• invasive investigative drilling to calculate concrete strengths
• concrete weathering damage
• structural in-situ elements

then when you have the cost to do this, see if the vendor will cover this.

sinnerboy

Add to the list above

thermal imaging survey
air tightness test

not forgetting by law you must be furnished with a BER cert now

tootsy70

sydthebeat wrote: »

you can buy anything if your willing to spend money.
the question is are you buying a pup? find out how much it would cost to have a complete insured structural survey carried out on the property, including

• invasive investigative drilling to calculate concrete strengths
  
• concrete weathering damage
• structural in-situ elements

then when you have the cost to do this, see if the vendor will cover this.

What sort of money would you be talking to get these done and what are they

tootsy70

HOPE100 wrote: »

Hi
I am thinking of buying a property that is 8 years old. Its was built by the current owner, planning was applied for and it seems the house is a little bit smaller that what was granted.
My issue is there is no certs with the house, no one was employed to come out during the build and sign off on it. They did get an architect out to give an opinion on the property last week, but this cannot ensure the foundations and materials used during the build was complied with.

Am I ok to go ahead and buy this property ????

When you say smaller, how small and is the foot print all changed. If not then i dont see a problem because you are aloud to make the house measurements smaller than what they are in the plans. If you want to make it bigger, you need new planning permission or even retention.

Can you give us more information on the house, type, has it been lived in all them years and how long it take to build it.

engineermike

tootsy70 wrote: »

What sort of money would you be talking to get these done and what are they

Hi,
Just to give you an outline of the costs. The property is circa 2005, noting that I don't know any other specific's (location, size, other substantial modifications after the original build - attic, extension etc.).
So these figures are 'ball park' just to give you an indication.

- Structural pre purchase survey - approx. €350 - 500 (inc.)
This would be your starting point in any testing / review of the property. The engineer will give you recommendations of what testing or further investigation is required. Clarify with your engineer from the outset (when getting your fee proposal for the services required) that you will require either a review on the architects opinion on compliance with building regulations, or an independent opinion on compliance with building regulations & / or Planning permission (I suggest this is warranted if you have queries or concerns in regard to the planning permission at this point in the purchase).

- Review & comment on the other professionals (arch tec) opinion on compliance with BR - approx. €150 (inc.)
- Opinion on compliance with Irish BR - €350 (inc.) again approx. cost, depends on the certificate required and the property specifics. Also what concerns are noted in the structural survey may dictate that opening or further investigation works / and or testing are required to provide security to you & comfort to the professional offering the opinion on compliance.

- Thermal survey & report. approx. €250 - 300, note this will not give great results in the summer time and best done at dusk - but still gives poor readings. Best carried out during the Autumn - Winter - early spring months.

- BER, as the other poster mentioned this should provided to you by law.

- Slab coring / infill testing. If there are concerns in regard to pyrite contamination of the infill of the foundations brought to light during the structural survey, this is where costs can escalate substantially for a prospective buyer and you should be putting it to the vendor to have the testing done & offer you confirmation that an issue does not exist (providing you with test results and a 'Green cert' stating that the home is pyrite free).
Approx. cost for geo technical reporting (including coring of slab, sampling of infill, lab analysis of samples, geo technical report & commentary report by overseeing engineer including damage rating & green cert. for home) - €2400 (inc.)

Remember these are just guide prices as not much detail for the home is in the original post. The structural survey is the best jumping off point and advisable in most instances when buying a home.
I have to agree with the other posters comments or 'feeling's' - alarm bells would be going off in my head when I hear the vendor built it themselves or 'the builder built it himself' etc. Far to much room to cut corners when building a home. An out of site out of mind approach has been adopted by many in the trade and it sound's like professional costs and over sight were lacking during the build of the property you have mentioned.
Caution advised !
Mike F

DOCARCH

tootsy70 wrote: »

because you are aloud to make the house measurements smaller than what they are in the plans.

Not true!

sinnerboy

DOCARCH wrote: »

Not true!

Agreed 24/7 , 365 days per year including weekends and bank holidays.

You must build only that which you are granted permission to build.

engineermike

sinnerboy wrote: »

Agreed 24/7 , 365 days per year including weekends and bank holidays.

You must build only that which you are granted permission to build.

But, you have to take into account the 'grey area' in Irish planning & politics.
Vendor built it themselves, vendor possibly a builder or in the development game ?
Likelyhood of a blind eye being thrown towards a minor planning infraction ?
m f

sinnerboy

engineermike wrote: »

But, you have to take into account the 'grey area' in Irish planning & politics.
Vendor built it themselves, vendor possibly a builder or in the development game ?
Likelyhood of a blind eye being thrown towards a minor planning infraction ?
m f

I dont understand. Who HAS to take this into account ?

HOPE100

Hi all
Many thanks for the replies.
The planning is not a major issue for me as its over 8 years old.
The owner is the builder.
BER is a B which is good.
I had a pre purchase survey carried out and my architect says the house is in good order and very well built.
I just don't have any assurances of the materials used !

sinnerboy

HOPE100 wrote: »

The planning is not a major issue for me as its over 8 years old.

Please explain what you understand is the significance of " its over 8 years old".
A non compliant building remains non complaint forever.

sinnerboy

HOPE100 wrote: »

I just don't have any assurances of the materials used !

Do not buy without this. Ask you solicitor to obtain the most onerous personal guarantee that the house is in compliance with all aspects of the building regulations from "the builder" , who was clearly competent to build without professional oversight - at least in his own mind. So let him follow through now - he ought have no trouble signing an undertaking to you when he asks you to commit to such an onerous financial liability.

If any fault later develops - you will own the problems and the mortgage. You do not have to watch the news that often to see this is the reality.

tootsy70

engineermike wrote: »

I have to agree with the other posters comments or 'feeling's' - alarm bells would be going off in my head when I hear the vendor built it themselves or 'the builder built it himself' etc. Far to much room to cut corners when building a home. An out of site out of mind approach has been adopted by many in the trade and it sound's like professional costs and over sight were lacking during the build of the property you have mentioned.
Caution advised !
Mike F

Alarm bells wouldnt go off in my head. If a builder built it himself then he would know exactly what needs to be done so its upto standards of building regs. If theres anyone i wanted to build a house for me then its a builder.

When you say out of site,out of mind approach what could possibly be out of site that would cause problems later on. I know foundations could be one but you would get cracks in the wall if the foundations were bad as that would def stick out like a sore thumb.

sinnerboy

tootsy70 wrote: »

If a builder built it himself then he would know exactly what needs to be done

How do you know that ?
After what training exactly that he could demonstrate to you in the form of a training or other educational certification ?
After what registration process to prove his credentials?
What insurance backed warranty can this builder give - comparable to a PI cover - to a purchaser ?

tootsy70

sinnerboy wrote: »

How do you know that ?
After what training exactly that he could demonstrate to you in the form of a training or other educational certification ?
After what registration process to prove his credentials?
What insurance backed warranty can this builder give - comparable to a PI cover - to a purchaser ?

Are builders not suppose to have any qualifications in this country if they take on jobs to build houses. I know houses can be built using direct labour but i always thought that if a builder took a house on, then he would have to hold some sort of qualifications to show hes capable of taking such a job on.

DOCARCH

tootsy70 wrote: »

Are builders not suppose to have any qualifications in this country if they take on jobs to build houses. I know houses can be built using direct labour but i always thought that if a builder took a house on, then he would have to hold some sort of qualifications to show hes capable of taking such a job on.

NO! Unfortunatly not. See my last comment on the BCA thread! Builders in this country do not have to have any formal training whatsoever and many (I dare so most) don't.

muffler

tootsy70 wrote: »

Are builders not suppose to have any qualifications in this country if they take on jobs to build houses. I know houses can be built using direct labour but i always thought that if a builder took a house on, then he would have to hold some sort of qualifications to show hes capable of taking such a job on.

Its probably best that you ask about these matters first before posting about them

Gumbo

tootsy70 wrote: »

Alarm bells wouldnt go off in my head. If a builder built it himself then he would know exactly what needs to be done so its upto standards of building regs. If theres anyone i wanted to build a house for me then its a builder.

When you say out of site,out of mind approach what could possibly be out of site that would cause problems later on. I know foundations could be one but you would get cracks in the wall if the foundations were bad as that would def stick out like a sore thumb.

Wheres the traceability of the build?
where did the materials come from?
are the materials fit for use?
where did the hardcore/backfill come from?
Will it be free from Pyrite, because in 5 years when it appears, the builder is long gone, you own the property/problem and you may have no insurance/guarantee to cover it.

engineermike

sinnerboy wrote: »

I dont understand. Who HAS to take this into account ?

I suppose the only person that has to take anything into account is the prospective buyer / OP. The comment was rhetorical in nature and is seemed apt in line with the concerns that the foot print was changed in some manner.
From personal experience it the construction period mentioned does have big questions hanging over it in relation to the planning process.
Its not that hard to come up against brick walls in planning inquires for builds during that date for substantial changes to the approved specification /layout etc.
Of course i'm guessing here, and know as much about this particular builder or property as anyone reading the thread. Most mod's and many posters on here are professionals in the trade and are well aware that the system is self regulatory and rely's solely on the professionals oversight to ensure the end user gets a complaint building built to best practice.
Even materials and the choice or use of is set up on an advisory bases
- " Irish agrement approved'" with no enforcement. Sorry a correct statement would be no enforcement until a problem occurs & then a Statutory instrument is written & enforced and yet it will still fall on the professionals to provide oversight.
So taking the professionals out of the equation in this case, that leaves you with the builder. As Doarch mentioned there is no structured formal training to become a 'builder' in Ireland. There is a fragmented structure available for various trades - plumbers, sparks etc. But I can set up a building company in the morning & provided I have a C2 i'm pretty much good to go.
The unknowns & hidden items that would concern me or at the very least encourage me to look further before committing to a purchase would range from the infill, wall make up and right up to the roof.
The 'alarm bells' i mentioned are derived from looking at a few of these types of builds over the years - and yes I at one point had a view that if you were say 'a builder' and you built your own home - you would do it to the best of your ability or even go overboard to make sure it was a great structure in every possible aspect. Why would you not ?
I'm sure there are many homes out there that are like this, but I'd say there are twice as many built by a 'builder' that had a piece of land during the boom times and went for a quick flip & fast buck.

Quick Question tootsy70, if there was no professional oversight have you had the planning documentation reviewed to see what further information can be brought forward from the file ?
Also is your builder & the structure in question bonded by home bond / premier ?
mike f