Why are the Baratheons so "Weak"?

Thargor

Something Ive never understood about GoT is why with so many Baratheons around (Stannis, Renly, Robert and their bannermen, castles etc) they seem really weak when it comes to actually dictating events, where were they when Robert was being murdered and all the events afterwards in the Tower of the Hand etc, not a single Baratheon involved it seemed like and the Lannisters just declared themselves in charge, I know Joffrey is technically a Baratheon but he refers to himself as a Lion, wears red etc, where are all the Baratheon lords who would object to this king of thing?

Surely Robert as the Usurper should have had an army around him at all times to protect him? In the books and on tv he came across as a prisoner of the Lannisters, and Kings Landing seemed more like Casterly Rock...

Denis322

Robert enjoyed a lavish lifestyle, and it was funded mainly by the Lannisters, so he wasn't really in much of a position to put them in their place. But I do think you're right about the rest being so weak.

Gbear

Thargor wrote: »

Something Ive never understood about GoT is why with so many Baratheons around (Stannis, Renly, Robert and their bannermen, castles etc) they seem really weak when it comes to actually dictating events, where were they when Robert was being murdered and all the events afterwards in the Tower of the Hand etc, not a single Baratheon involved it seemed like and the Lannisters just declared themselves in charge, I know Joffrey is technically a Baratheon but he refers to himself as a Lion, wears red etc, where are all the Baratheon lords who would object to this king of thing?

Surely Robert as the Usurper should have had an army around him at all times to protect him? In the books and on tv he came across as a prisoner of the Lannisters, and Kings Landing seemed more like Casterly Rock...

The Stormlands weren't his direct bannermen anymore. Renly was lord of Storm's End, so he got all them, and Stannis was lord of Dragonstone, so he got the lords in and around there.

Robert had a few men briefly mentioned here and there - I think a Santagar (a house belonging to either the Stormlands or Dragonstone) is his master of arms or something. He also had the Kingsguard and the city watch (numbering in the thousands).
Ultimately he was both naive and pretty uninterested in playing the game. Complacency after 10 odd years of peace was probably also a factor.

When Renly left the city he brought all the troops loyal to Storm's End with him. Likewise with Stannis.
Renly offered to join forces with Ned, and the Stark and Baratheon household guards would've been enough to seize power but without the Starks Renly didn't fancy his chances so he went and called his banners back at home.

Thargor

Good explanation thanks.

K_user

Gbear wrote: »

Renly offered to join forces with Ned, and the Stark and Baratheon household guards would've been enough to seize power but without the Starks Renly didn't fancy his chances so he went and called his banners back at home.

This was the real death blow for Ned.

The whole city was up for grabs and Ned only had a handful of men. Had he joined with Renly they could have held out until the banners where called. When the Baratheon's left the city, he had no allies left.

stevenmu

The Baratheon army was never strong enough to seize power on it's own. Robert's war against the Targaryen's, was really a popular uprising against a mad king and his forces were an alliance of most of major houses in Westeros. Even still it's possible that they would not have won if the Lannister's (who were a powerful force even at that point) had not switched sides right at the end.

When the mad king was defeated, and all the other Targaryens were either killed or had fled, there was no one with a direct claim to the thrown. It's even mentioned a few times in the books that Ned could have easily sat on the thrown and named himself king. In order to cement power, Robert had to ally himself to the Lannisters, between them and the Starks he had powerful backing. Without that there could easily have been another uprising against him in no time.

K_user

stevenmu wrote: »

The Baratheon army was never strong enough to seize power on it's own. Robert's war against the Targaryen's, was really a popular uprising against a mad king and his forces were an alliance of most of major houses in Westeros. Even still it's possible that they would not have won if the Lannister's (who were a powerful force even at that point) had not switched sides right at the end.

When the mad king was defeated, and all the other Targaryens were either killed or had fled, there was no one with a direct claim to the thrown. It's even mentioned a few times in the books that Ned could have easily sat on the thrown and named himself king. In order to cement power, Robert had to ally himself to the Lannisters, between them and the Starks he had powerful backing. Without that there could easily have been another uprising against him in no time.

Very true. The Throne was Neds for the taking. It only became Roberts by default, he might have made a name for himself, but he wasn't the most powerful Lord in the fight.

Witcher

Robert has Targaryen blood through his grandmother so he was the best choice for king after the Targaryens were deposed.

Stannis wasn't in King Landing when the series start because he had left after Jon Arryn was killed..they had been investigating Cersei and Jaimie's relationship, leaves to rally his army incase Robert is killed.

kjl

Thargor wrote: »

Something Ive never understood about GoT is why with so many Baratheons around (Stannis, Renly, Robert and their bannermen, castles etc) they seem really weak when it comes to actually dictating events, where were they when Robert was being murdered and all the events afterwards in the Tower of the Hand etc, not a single Baratheon involved it seemed like and the Lannisters just declared themselves in charge, I know Joffrey is technically a Baratheon but he refers to himself as a Lion, wears red etc, where are all the Baratheon lords who would object to this king of thing?

Surely Robert as the Usurper should have had an army around him at all times to protect him? In the books and on tv he came across as a prisoner of the Lannisters, and Kings Landing seemed more like Casterly Rock...

Eh Robert wasn't murdered and the min Robert died Renly went off to raise an army to defeat the lannisters.

Gbear

kjl wrote: »

Eh Robert wasn't murdered and the min Robert died Renly went off to raise an army to defeat the lannisters.

The lannisters orchestrated his death by getting him pissed when he was hunting boar.

Not murder, but they got him killed.

If he had made it home to Kings Landing it was curtains for house Lannister.

kjl

Gbear wrote: »

The lannisters orchestrated his death by getting him pissed when he was hunting boar.

Not murder, but they got him killed.

If he had made it home to Kings Landing it was curtains for house Lannister.

Don't think he needed much help getting pissed, but I forgot that.

K_user

Gbear wrote: »

The lannisters orchestrated his death by getting him pissed when he was hunting boar.

Not murder, but they got him killed.

If he had made it home to Kings Landing it was curtains for house Lannister.

In all fairness Robert spent most of his time p*ssed. It wasn't like he was tricked into drinking...

Thargor

kjl wrote: »

Eh Robert wasn't murdered and the min Robert died Renly went off to raise an army to defeat the lannisters.

He was manslaughtered then, my main query was why there were no Baratheons around him the way there are Lannisters everywhere with Tywin and Dreadfort soldiers around Roose Bolton all the time etc, he was King and leader of the rebellion but he didnt seem to have an army of his own which I found odd.

Liam O

Of course Robert was murdered, he was fed strong wine, basically drugged and left on his own to fight boar.

thegreatiam

Thargor wrote: »

He was manslaughtered then, my main query was why there were no Baratheons around him the way there are Lannisters everywhere with Tywin and Dreadfort soldiers around Roose Bolton all the time etc, he was King and leader of the rebellion but he didnt seem to have an army of his own which I found odd.

he lannisters play the long game and basically ensured they were involved in everything. With the real power in the relationship being the missus.

for example, id imagine when it came down to choosing a squire Robert would probably choose a young Baratheon boy, until his missus swayed him to pick a lannister,
and he relents to have an easier life of drinking and riding.
id imagine quite a lot of the decision were made for him in this manner by people loyal to, or paid by the lannisters over 10 years, thats a lot of lannister decision making

Owryan

An important point to remember is that there is no single army serving the king/kingdom. Each of the major houses have their own bannermen who are subject to their liege lord not the king .

Cercei pointed this out to Joffrey in season 2 when he was talking about raising his own army.

Only the city watch could be considered as the kings and as Ned found out even their loyalty is not above purchase.

Its even more obvious when you compare the size of the Baratheon and Lannister families. Robert only had 2 brothers and between them they only have the one child, with no mention of any uncles or extended family to call on. Whereas the Lannisters have a much greater family circle to support their claim..

KonFusion

I miss Robert