driving in motorway with L

dublin1131

Hi, i have accident last Friday in M6 and i have L licence with my international licence, and my car towing to athlone because of the power streeing anyway i try call my insurance company from Friday until today but i can get answer from them. But i want to know now one things because the Garda say ill used the L licence for this accident not my international licence so anybody can tell me what the problem ill get from this because in my insurance company i used my provisional licence also?



Thank you

coylemj

If you have an 'L' licence I take it you mean an Irish learner permit?

If you also have an international driving permit, that means that you must have a full licence from another country - can you tell us which country please. The international permit by itself is useless, it's only worth anything in conjunction with a full driving licence from some country.

Your insurance will cover you but the Gardai may prosecute you for driving on a Motorway which you are not permitted to do on an Irish learner permit, unless the foreign driving licence plus the International permit covers you but it sounds like that is not the case from what the Gardai have told you.

Zambia

http://www.rsa.ie/en/RSA/Licensed-Drivers/Driving-licence/Holders-of-foreign-licenses/

Does holding a Learners in Ireland invalidate your foreign licence?

Corkbah

which licence did you tell your insurance company you have ? if you said "L" licence you could be in a lot of trouble.

if you were the car that blocked the N4 lucan exit of the M50 last Friday - causing tailbacks all the way to the tallaght exit, I have little sympathy for you.

(I was caught in that traffic and a 30min journey turned into 2 and a half hours of a journey...bad start to the bank holiday !!)

dublin daz

dublin1131 wrote: »

because in my insurance company i used my provisional licence also?

Thank you

Not only did you breach a condition of the policy you also broke the law. Learner drivers are not allowed drive on the motorway.

The insurance company can sue to recover whatever they are obliged to pay to the third party and the Gardai can take a prosecution.

You might want to familiarise yourself with the rules of the road.

http://www.rulesoftheroad.ie/

Zambia

Daz I think you are being a bit quick to judge there.

If one has a lets say like me an Australian State licence. I also apply for a Irish L licence.

I simply claim I got the irish licence for ID purposes.

What law states the irish one invalidates the foreign one?

As my reading of the below I dont see it mentioned. Note he has not surrendered his licence he has both.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2007/en/si/0527.html

2. (1) It is declared that a licence or permit permitting a person to drive a mechanically propelled vehicle, not being a licence or permit issued to a person to enable that person to learn or provisionally to drive such a vehicle, issued by the competent authority of a Member State (other than the State) or another state mentioned in the Schedule is recognised for the purpose of exchange of that licence or permit for a driving licence, in respect of any one or more of the categories in respect of which the licence or permit is held that corresponds to a category mentioned in the Table to Regulation 6 of the Road Traffic (Licensing of Drivers) Regulations 2006 ( S.I. No. 537 of 2006 ), subject to Commission Decision No. 2000/275 of 21 March 2000 1 .

(2) This Order does not apply to a licence or permit issued by another Member State or a state mentioned in the Schedule which was issued in exchange for a licence or permit issued by a state, other than the State, which is not another Member State or a state mentioned in the Schedule.

dublin daz

Zambia wrote: »

Daz I think you are being a bit quick to judge there.

If one has a lets say like me an Australian State licence. I also apply for a Irish L licence.

I simply claim I got the irish licence for ID purposes.

What law states the irish one invalidates the foreign one?

As my reading of the below I dont see it mentioned. Note he has not surrendered his licence he has both.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2007/en/si/0527.html

The policy is in force by virtue of him or her holding a provisional licence issued in Ireland. He or she stated that above. It cannot be said it was for ID in this case as the policy is in force on the basis of him or her holding a provisional licence as notified to the insurance company.

It is on that basis he or she is insured to drive on Irish roads. Driving on a motorway using a provisional licence can invalidate an insurance policy.

Claiming eligibility on the international licence means the driver was technically uninsured which is a much more serious offence.

The entry sign is quite clear at all motorway entry points 'No L Drivers'

EDIT: If s/he has a policy attached to the foreign licence then he may well claim on that policy in which case he will not be considered a learner driver.

Zambia

dublin daz wrote: »

The policy is in force by virtue of him or her holding a provisional licence issued in Ireland. He or she stated that above. It cannot be said it was for ID in this case as the policy is in force on the basis of him or her holding a provisional licence as notified to the insurance company.

How is he not insured he holds valid insurance.

dublin daz wrote: »

It is on that basis he or she is insured to drive on Irish roads. Driving on a motorway using a provisional licence can invalidate an insurance policy.

Fair enough if thats in the policy I have not seen it I cant judge.

dublin daz wrote: »

Claiming eligibility on the international licence means the driver was technically uninsured which is a much more serious offence.

No he held insurance, he was insured. He declared a level of driving to his insurance he held a Irish Learners. The fact is if someone did not declare they had a foreign licence chances are they did it to escape blatant discrimination by the insurance.
"Oh look a Nigerian licence, best we load up this bloke"

dublin daz wrote: »

The entry sign is quite clear at all motorway entry points 'No L Drivers'

See here is where the grey area comes in he has another licence so he is not on L for that purpose.

I see what you mean but to convict him in a court you cannot just come up with the general vibe of the thing.

Convicting someone for driving unisured when they did have a insurance policy well you might have reasonable doubt there.

Convicting someone for improper licence to drive on a motorway when he had a valid full foreign licence.

Like I said before what stopping him from claiming use on both licences. How can the Garda on the scene make the decision what licence he is going to be driving under.

There probably is a piece of legislation that covers this but from an outsiders point of view where is that legislation?

dublin daz

The company assessed the risk based on the disclosure made by him or her at the time of taking out the policy. They understand that to be a learner driver on a provisional licence.

Without reference to legislation, the RSA have a useful guide and they state quite clearly that you cannot be issued an international driving permit if you have a learner permit ie provisional licence or having passed a test and hold a full licence - see here: http://www.rsa.ie/en/RSA/Licensed-Drivers/Driving-licence/Driving-abroad---where-do-I-need-an-international-license/

Whether or not the Gardai issue a summons, who knows. They have a six month window for that.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Zambia

dublin daz wrote: »

The company assessed the risk based on the disclosure made by him or her at the time of taking out the policy. They understand that to be a learner driver on a provisional licence.

And none of that has changed he was a learner driver on a Provisional licence if anything the existence of another licence should have mitigated the risk.

However I am not to concerned about the insurance company.

dublin daz wrote: »

Without reference to legislation, the RSA have a useful guide and they state quite clearly that you cannot be issued an international driving permit if you have a learner permit ie provisional licence or having passed a test and hold a full licence - see here: http://www.rsa.ie/en/RSA/Licensed-Drivers/Driving-licence/Driving-abroad---where-do-I-need-an-international-license/

With the greatest respect the RSA website is not legislation. I am sure the RSA have that policy in place but without legislation to back it up the worst they can do is withdraw the provisional licence.

dublin daz wrote: »

Whether or not the Gardai issue a summons, who knows. They have a six month window for that.

For what charges?
From your RSA site

You must not enter the Motorway if you are a learner driver or do not hold a full licence for the category of
vehicle you are driving;

He did hold a full licence for the vehicle he was driving.


In respect to driving without insurance, he had insurance. In light of not disclosing well neither you or I have seen the form he filled out. What if there is only one licence details field?

The actual cause of the accident itself he can be charged with but the above 2 well there are not clear cut at all.

Marcusm

How long had the person been in Ireland at the time of the alleged offence? Presumably the foreign licence is not an exchangeable one, if (s)he has been in Ireland for longer than 12 months, I do not believe they can rely on the foreign licence.

Corkbah

facts are (as I understand it) the OP has been insured and driving in Ireland under a provisional (L) Licence, he/she had a crash last week on the M50 and knowing that as an L-Licenced driver they are not allowed to drive on the motorway he/she is looking to claim usage of their full drivers licence and international drivers licence from another country.

insurance company will either invalidate his/her insurance due to being an L-licenced driver on a motorway and possibly Gardai will prosecute for being an L-licenced driver on the motorway....or ignorant people being ignorant will process the claim simply as a motor accident and pay out, with no prosecution from Gardai.

There is a chance the Gardai would try to prosecute for no insurance but the OP would have plausible deniability in that he/she believed they were insured - tough one to prove given that the insurance documents and signage clearly say that L-Licenced drivers are not permitted to drive on the motorway.

of course, the OP could argue that the M50 is not a motorway and has been downgraded in speeds permitted due to the criteria for motorway not fully being met (I'm not 100% on this - just havent had the time to look into it) .... slightly off topic but .... ever asked yourself why the M50 (a motorway) has a speed limit of 100km/hr, but according to the rules of the road in Ireland a motorway limit is 120km/hr.

SB2013

Legally the op was insured as his insurance company are obliged to cover third party claims even if he breaks their rules. Of course if there was a third party claim they'd go after him for payment afterwards.

Zambia

Corkbah wrote: »

facts are (as I understand it) the OP has been insured and driving in Ireland under a provisional (L) Licence, he/she had a crash last week on the M50 and knowing that as an L-Licenced driver they are not allowed to drive on the motorway he/she is looking to claim usage of their full drivers licence and international drivers licence from another country.

Once again what is the legislation that says you cannot have both licences?

They knew they had a full licence from another state.

SB2013

Zambia wrote: »

Once again what is the legislation that says you cannot have both licences?

They knew they had a full licence from another state.

It's really irrelevent if it's not one that is recognised in this country. I doubt it is though because why would he have a learners permit and not have just transferred his over?

Corkbah

SB2013 wrote: »

Legally the op was insured as his insurance company are obliged to cover third party claims even if he breaks their rules. Of course if there was a third party claim they'd go after him for payment afterwards.

I believe that the MIBI was setup in this situation to cover compensation claims when one party is not insured.

http://www.rulesoftheroad.ie/your-licence-and-vehicle/before-you-are-a-fully-licenced-driver/driving-legally.html

Is the insurance cover up to date and valid to cover you?

if the OP obtained his insurance by informing his insurers he had a provisional or L-Licence he therefore broke the law as his insurance was not valid to cover him to drive on a motorway.

Corkbah

Zambia wrote: »

Once again what is the legislation that says you cannot have both licences?

They knew they had a full licence from another state.

and once again you have not given anyone proof that it is acceptable.

I will try to find the documentation which indicates that you MUST give up your foreign licence when applying for a (L) provisional/full Irish licence

Zambia

Once again form the RSA

As a visitor to Ireland you can driver on a driving licence from any state outside the EU/EEA for up to a year provided the driving licence is current and valid. However on taking up ‘normal residence’ in Ireland you must either exchange your driving licence or apply for a driving licence in Ireland. You are considered to be normally resident in Ireland if, because of personal and occupational ties, you usually live here for at least 185 days in each calendar year.

If you wish to exchange your driving licence for an equivalent Irish driving licence, you must do so within one year of your driving licence expiring.

In order to exchange your licence you must return the following documentation to your local Motor Taxation Office

Example
I have a licence that I cant change over, I need to go through the whole learner process. So While in my 12 month phase I get my learners and do my test so that at the end of 12 months I have a full licence.

galwayjohn89

Zambia wrote: »

Once again form the RSA



Example
I have a licence that I cant change over, I need to go through the whole learner process. So While in my 12 month phase I get my learners and do my test so that at the end of 12 months I have a full licence.

But if you have moved to Ireland surely you would not be a visitor and therefore your licence is not valid.

Zambia

Corkbah wrote: »

and once again you have not given anyone proof that it is acceptable.

Sorry I'm the defence here I don't have to provide the charge my client will be charged over

My last post has an example of what he could be doing.

Zambia

Vuzuggu wrote: »

But if you have moved to Ireland surely you would not be a visitor and therefore your licence is not valid.

So I arrive in Ireland as a tourist and am allowed drive I apply for residency and over night I am not allowed drive???

Are new arriving residents banned from driving

God you guys are harsh

Corkbah

Zambia wrote: »

So I arrive in Ireland as a tourist and am allowed drive I apply for residency and over night I am not allowed drive???

Are new arriving residents banned from driving

God you guys are harsh

we dont make the rules !! ...blame the politicians and appointed members of various boards/departments !!

if you read your own quote from the RSA

As a visitor to Ireland you can driver on a driving licence from any state outside the EU/EEA for up to a year provided the driving licence is current and valid. However on taking up ‘normal residence’ in Ireland you must either exchange your driving licence or apply for a driving licence in Ireland. You are considered to be normally resident in Ireland if, because of personal and occupational ties, you usually live here for at least 185 days in each calendar year.

If you wish to exchange your driving licence for an equivalent Irish driving licence, you must do so within one year of your driving licence expiring.

In order to exchange your licence you must return the following documentation to your local Motor Taxation Office

I read it as saying - if you are visiting and wish to get an Irish licence - you can exchange like for like (full licence) straight swap, if you intend applying for an Irish licence and do not wish to exchange your original licence from another country - you simply apply like everyone else for a provisional(L) Licence - you don't want to swap they assume you don't have a licence.

if you are staying in Ireland for 12months you can use your own licence, if you are staying longer get an Irish licence.

Zambia

Corkbah wrote: »

if you are staying in Ireland for 12months you can use your own licence, if you are staying longer get an Irish licence.

Yes but nothing says you can't start the process in the 12 months.

So during that period you will have both licences.

Corkbah

Zambia wrote: »

Yes but nothing says you can't start the process in the 12 months.

So during that period you will have both licences.

but if you have a full licence from another country - its a straight swap .... full licence hey presto.

if you don't you apply for an irish licence which means you are starting from scratch in terms of the Irish system ...so you are a learner on an L-Licence for the roads and insurance.

coylemj

Corkbah wrote: »

if the OP obtained his insurance by informing his insurers he had a provisional or L-Licence he therefore broke the law as his insurance was not valid to cover him to drive on a motorway.

You're jumping the gun there. Yes he is breaking the law by driving on a motorway but so am I if my licence expires today and I hit the M50 tomorrow but I am still covered by my insurance policy even though technically I have no licence.

The only thing that renders your insurance inoperative is if you have never held a licence or are disqualified.