Non Church ceremony with a priest??

emfitz · 31-05-2013 8:31am #1

Hi Everyone,

Any help appreciated.

I want to have my ceremony and reception all at the hotel, however my partner would like a priest.

Has this been done? Is it up to each individual priest whether he will or not?

Any info would be great.

Em

paddyh117 · 31-05-2013 8:36am

emfitz wrote: »

Hi Everyone,

Any help appreciated.

I want to have my ceremony and reception all at the hotel, however my partner would like a priest.

Has this been done? Is it up to each individual priest whether he will or not?

Any info would be great.

Em

Hi

to the best of my knowledge this can't be done

If having a reception at a hotel, it must be a non-religious, Civil Ceremony, and this is conducted by an appointed person from the HSE

If you want a priest, it will have to be in a church - one option would be a church wedding, but without the Mass - this i didn't know was possible until recently, but can be done

hope that helps

emfitz · 31-05-2013 8:43am

Thanks Paddyh,

I'm not not religious but i haven't been to mass in years and would rather it all be in the one place. And our local PP is a real pain.

I have looked into civil ceremonies but my partners parents are slightly older and i know would like (expect) a priest.

seosamh1980 · 31-05-2013 8:50am

Yeah to have a priest it has to be in a church. Can't just pick and choose what Catholic aspects you want, if you want a priest to marry you you have it in a church, do pre marriage course if requested, pre nuptial inquiry, etc etc. If you want it in a hotel without a religious aspect you pick civil ceremony.

emfitz · 31-05-2013 8:59am

It's not that i want to pick and choose, would rather have it all in one place and avoid a freezing cold church.

pooch90 · 31-05-2013 9:00am

There's always Bishop Pat Buckley.
It's up the priest, he can do it if he wants but if he's a pain chances are he won't agree.

Your wedding is not about your OH's parents, do what you want.
We're having a humanist ceremony, I thought my mother wouldn't approve but she thinks it's a lovely idea. Have your OH's parents actually said they wouldn't approve?

seosamh1980 · 31-05-2013 9:01am

emfitz wrote: »

It's not that i want to pick and choose, would rather have it all in one place and avoid a freezing cold church.

That's a random and bad reason. What time of year is the wedding? Churches do have heating you know.

emfitz · 31-05-2013 9:02am

Thanks pooch,
My partner would prefer it so I am just looking into it. The PP in the next parish where i was actually christened is pretty cruisey so i may have to ask him.
If it can be done we will do it, if not it will be civil ceremony!!
My Parents are completely up for the idea.

Planning from Oz so that bit harder.

emfitz · 31-05-2013 9:04am

seosamh1980 wrote: »

That's a random and bad reason. What time of year is the wedding? Churches do have heating you know.

Christmas..
Why bad.
I just don't want it in a church. End of.

seosamh1980 · 31-05-2013 9:07am

emfitz wrote: »

Christmas..
Why bad.
I just don't want it in a church. End of.

To say you don't want a church wedding because of the temperature of the church is a bad reason not to want a church wedding, a very small reason. Especially when churches have heating which is always turned on for weddings if necessary. If you don't want a church wedding for religious/non religious reasons fair enough, but because of the temperature is an odd reason, imagine telling a priest that that was your reason, when people get married in churches all the time without freezing, even at Christmas.

pooch90 · 31-05-2013 9:14am

The OP is asking for advice not for her choices to be criticised.
Faith is not location dependent.

If the other PP says no you should def look into Pat Buckley though but he costs £450, and may charge travel expenses based on your location-he's up north but fully licensed to perform ceremonies.

tatli_lokma · 31-05-2013 9:44am

OP I think other posters are giving you incorrect information. I don't believe that a religious ceremony must be in a church. A friend of the family (not a wedding I was at myself but my dad was at it) had a wedding in a hotel and the uncle who is a priest did a blessing and the legal parts. It was about 2 years ago and I remember it because my dad said it was a particularly nice wedding thanks to the uncle. If you want a civil ceremony, then no, there cannot be any religious elements. However, if you want to receive the christian sacriment of marriage then it can be done outside of a church - if you couldn't receive the sacriments outside a church how would people get the last rights???

It's not that it can't be done, its just not the norm.

Having said that, if you want to convince a priest to have a catholic ceremony outside of the church environment, you are going to need better reasons than the church being cold.

I also agree with pooch90 - if you don't want a church wedding and your fiance is agreeable to a civil ceremony then her parents expectations shouldn't come into it. You have to do what is right for you. There are lots of things you can compromise on to keep the peace, but for me compromising your beliefs isn't one of them. My wedding day was one day when I did not want to be promising things ro saying things which were not sincere. For me having a religious ceremony would have been equal in my mind to mixing some very important promises with ones I had no intention of keeping! My dad is very old fashioned and goes to mass a few times a week. He loves a good mass he does! When he first heard we were not having a church wedding he was a bit put out. But I explained my reasons and said that it was our choice and that our committment was no less valid because a church didn't bless it. In the end, he was really impressed by our wedding as was our alter-licker neighbour who said she was amazed that the nicest wedding and most moving wedding she had ever been to was not in a church. Sometimes people just can't see past what they are used to - once they see the alternative they think very differently.

username123 · 31-05-2013 9:55am

Little Ted wrote: »

OP I think other posters are giving you incorrect information. I don't believe that a religious ceremony must be in a church. A friend of the family (not a wedding I was at myself but my dad was at it) had a wedding in a hotel and the uncle who is a priest did a blessing and the legal parts. It was about 2 years ago and I remember it because my dad said it was a particularly nice wedding thanks to the uncle. If you want a civil ceremony, then no, there cannot be any religious elements. However, if you want to receive the christian sacriment of marriage then it can be done outside of a church - if you couldn't receive the sacriments outside a church how would people get the last rights???

It's not that it can't be done, its just not the norm.

I dont think that this is correct. The HSE is very strict on the rules of having marriages performed by legal solemnisers and the catholic church require all sorts of "release from parish" paperwork to allow someone to get married outside of their parish. It is my understanding that it is a requirement of a catholic marriage to be held in a church because it is a public place of worship where anyone can attend and/or give reasons why the two should not be married. A hotel is private property so not suitable for this from a catholic perspective.

What I have heard of is a HSE civil ceremony in a hotel followed by a blessing (not a catholic marriage ceremony) by a priest - a blessing can be done anywhere of course.

seosamh1980 · 31-05-2013 10:02am

Yeah a blessing isn't the same as the wedding ceremony. Might suit the OP quite well actually, but it isn't the same as a wedding ceremony.

paddyh117 · 31-05-2013 10:03am

Little Ted wrote: »

OP I think other posters are giving you incorrect information. I don't believe that a religious ceremony must be in a church. A friend of the family (not a wedding I was at myself but my dad was at it) had a wedding in a hotel and the uncle who is a priest did a blessing and the legal parts. It was about 2 years ago and I remember it because my dad said it was a particularly nice wedding thanks to the uncle. If you want a civil ceremony, then no, there cannot be any religious elements. However, if you want to receive the christian sacriment of marriage then it can be done outside of a church - if you couldn't receive the sacriments outside a church how would people get the last rights???

it's not incorrect information - what you're describing here is a "blessing" the legal aspect of that marriage must have happened elsewhere, possibly a civil ceremony on their own before the day you describe.

Civil ceremonies, by law, are not permitted to have any form of religious aspect associated.

seosamh1980 · 31-05-2013 10:05am

paddyh117 wrote: »

Civil ceremonies, by law, are not permitted to have any form of religious aspect associated.

Yeah, when my friends were having one they had to be so careful not to have any songs that could possibly have a religious aspect, even things like Robbie Williams Angels was out!

pooch90 · 31-05-2013 10:28am

Hence why humanist ceremonies are a much nicer alternative to HSE....you can have whatever you want.
OP, suss out the priest, he'll give you definitive answer on this.

tatli_lokma · 31-05-2013 10:50am

paddyh117 wrote: »

it's not incorrect information - what you're describing here is a "blessing" the legal aspect of that marriage must have happened elsewhere, possibly a civil ceremony on their own before the day you describe.

Civil ceremonies, by law, are not permitted to have any form of religious aspect associated.

You are missing the point. OP never said they want a full catholic wedding - they simply asked if they can have a priest. And they can. A priest is a legal solemniser. A blessing with the legal parts is a different thing to a civil ceremony conducted by the HSE. A civil ceremony conducted by a HSE registrar cannot have any religious elements. However you can have a religious ceremony in a non-religious setting.

In addition, a hotel is deemed as a suitable place for a wedding as long as the room the ceremony is conducted in is open to the public and wheelchair accessible.

As I said, a friend of the family had a blessing in a hotel, no need for a seperate civil ceremony, and the marriage had all the required legal elements. It is at the discretion of the priest if they will conduct the ceremony outside of a church. And as long as it fulfills the legal requirements, then there is no reason why a mass - be it a wedding mass or any other mass - be conducted elsewhere. Plenty of masses take place outside of a church, a wedding would be no different if the priest was agreeable.

username123 · 31-05-2013 10:55am

Little Ted wrote: »

You are missing the point. OP never said they want a full catholic wedding - they simply asked if they can have a priest. And they can. A priest is a legal solemniser. A blessing with the legal parts is a different thing to a civil ceremony conducted by the HSE. A civil ceremony conducted by a HSE registrar cannot have any religious elements. However you can have a religious ceremony in a non-religious setting.

In addition, a hotel is deemed as a suitable place for a wedding as long as the room the ceremony is conducted in is open to the public and wheelchair accessible.

As I said, a friend of the family had a blessing in a hotel, no need for a seperate civil ceremony, and the marriage had all the required legal elements. It is at the discretion of the priest if they will conduct the ceremony outside of a church. And as long as it fulfills the legal requirements, then there is no reason why a mass - be it a wedding mass or any other mass - be conducted elsewhere. Plenty of masses take place outside of a church, a wedding would be no different if the priest was agreeable.

You are mixing the catholic and legal requirements.

A hotel is not suitable under catholic doctrine.
A blessing is not a catholic marriage ceremony and does not fulfill legal requirements.
Priests do not have the authority to marry people with a blessing in a HSE approved venue - only HSE approved solemnisers can do this.

From here

Church law requires baptized Catholics to celebrate their marriage in the proper sacramental form. In Ireland , it must be within a church building.

paddyh117 · 31-05-2013 11:12am

username123 wrote: »

You are mixing the catholic and legal requirements.

A hotel is not suitable under catholic doctrine.
A blessing is not a catholic marriage ceremony and does not fulfill legal requirements.
Priests do not have the authority to marry people with a blessing in a HSE approved venue - only HSE approved solemnisers can do this.

From here

+1 this.

emfitz · 31-05-2013 11:48am

Thanks for all the info...

I just wanted to know if it could be done, my reasoning should not matter.

tatli_lokma · 31-05-2013 12:11pm

That same website also says:

"A marriage... is to be celebrated in the parish church. But by permission of the local Ordinary or of the parish priest, it may be celebrated in
another church or oratory." (Can. 1118) The local bishop can allow a marriage to be celebrated in another "suitable place"."

so a bishop can give permission to have a wedding in a suitable place. Not many will agree to this, but it does happen. Usually it happens if the priest is a friend of the family or relative, so they are more happy to seek this permission.

I think in general it is a grey area - technically priests are not even supposed to permit blessings at all, but they do and lots of people have had this. I recall a post on boards actually from a divorced couple who had a blessing and the legal part all done. The legal part is the signing of the registry and a priest is authorised to approve this, with or without a mass or a blessing.

username123 wrote:

Priests do not have the authority to marry people with a blessing in a HSE approved venue - only HSE approved solemnisers can do this.

then how can a humanist or spiritualist conduct a ceremony in a HSE approved venue? Plenty of spiritualist weddings have taken place in a hotel. It is only the HSE registrar conducted ceremonies which cannot have any religious connotations.

username123 · 31-05-2013 12:39pm

Little Ted wrote: »

That same website also says:

"A marriage... is to be celebrated in the parish church. But by permission of the local Ordinary or of the parish priest, it may be celebrated in
another church or oratory." (Can. 1118) The local bishop can allow a marriage to be celebrated in another "suitable place"."

so a bishop can give permission to have a wedding in a suitable place. Not many will agree to this, but it does happen. Usually it happens if the priest is a friend of the family or relative, so they are more happy to seek this permission.

It specifies another church or oratory as a suitable place? Im not sure how you are not seeing this. The line before that, which you havent quoted, says

Catholic practice requires that the all sacramental marriages be celebrated in a properly consecrated church building.

Little Ted wrote: »

I think in general it is a grey area - technically priests are not even supposed to permit blessings at all, but they do and lots of people have had this. I recall a post on boards actually from a divorced couple who had a blessing and the legal part all done. The legal part is the signing of the registry and a priest is authorised to approve this, with or without a mass or a blessing.

I dont think it is a grey area at all. You can either get married in a church with a priest, or have a civil ceremony without one. Or have a blessing after the civil ceremony - but that is not a catholic marriage sacrament.

Little Ted wrote: »

then how can a humanist or spiritualist conduct a ceremony in a HSE approved venue? Plenty of spiritualist weddings have taken place in a hotel. It is only the HSE registrar conducted ceremonies which cannot have any religious connotations.

Because they have become approved HSE registrars. Humanist and Spiritualist weddings are not religious ceremonies so they meet the HSE guidelines.

tatli_lokma · 31-05-2013 1:03pm

username123 wrote: »

It specifies another church or oratory as a suitable place? Im not sure how you are not seeing this.

I see that but I also see the following line which says that a bishop can decide what is a 'suitable place'

username123 wrote: »

Because they have become approved HSE registrars. Humanist and Spiritualist weddings are not religious ceremonies so they meet the HSE guidelines.

If you look up the list of approved solemnisers, spirtualists are listed as 'religious'. I assume that the humanist will be specified as secular. So you can have a religious/secular ceremony performed by a religious/secular solemniser OR you can have a HSE registrar.

username123 · 31-05-2013 1:15pm

Little Ted wrote: »

I see that but I also see the following line which says that a bishop can decide what is a 'suitable place'

I dont mean this to sound sharp but Im not interested in debating this. Im not a priest, Im not even catholic, but its clear to me both from a quick google and from experience that catholic marriages happen in churches only in Ireland. If you have direct experience of something different (not just a family friends wedding that you werent at) then post or pm the priests details to the OP. I would be very surprised if it turned out to be an actual catholic marriage ceremony.

Little Ted wrote: »

If you look up the list of approved solemnisers, spirtualists are listed as 'religious'. I assume that the humanist will be specified as secular. So you can have a religious/secular ceremony performed by a religious/secular solemniser OR you can have a HSE registrar.

Ditto what I said above (not interested in debating it) - Tom Colton states on his website that he is registered by the state to carry out legal marriages.

Tom is a Minister and officiant of the Spiritualist Union of Ireland and registered by the state of the Republic of Ireland to carry out legal marriages and holds a licence from the General Registrars Office(www.groireland.ie)

And this from here

A spiritual wedding ceremony is a non denominational ceremony and it doesn’t conform to the religious aspects of the mainstream religious beliefs.

- which is why they can do HSE civil ceremonies.

lazygal · 31-05-2013 1:23pm

Non church catholic weddings can be done - but its extremely rare and usually because of serious circumstance like one person not being able to leave hospital due to illness and that kind of thing. I've never heard of anyone having a legally binding catholic marriage outside a church that's been arranged long in advance.

pwurple · 31-05-2013 1:42pm

Youv'e heard of one now.... Our priest married us in a non-church.

It can be done alright. We knew our priest very well. There was no illness or any other craic like that. We actually had it outdoors. Signed the registry indoors in a HSE approved venue (about 10 feet away). The catholic marriage rite can take place whereever you want, as long as it's reasonable and the priest agrees.

Best course of action is to ask your priest!

tatli_lokma · 31-05-2013 3:34pm

username123 wrote: »

I If you have direct experience of something different (not just a family friends wedding that you werent at) then post or pm the priests details to the OP. I would be very surprised if it turned out to be an actual catholic marriage ceremony.

Read my post again - I clearly said it was a blessing, not a full catholic ceremony where the sacriment was received. There is definitely a grey area as the priest in question can make their own determination on things - I would imagine the amount of pull he has in his diocese probably makes a difference though. And if you want a direct experience see pwurple's post.

pwurple wrote: »

Youv'e heard of one now.... Our priest married us in a non-church.

It can be done alright. We knew our priest very well. There was no illness or any other craic like that. We actually had it outdoors. Signed the registry indoors in a HSE approved venue (about 10 feet away). The catholic marriage rite can take place whereever you want, as long as it's reasonable and the priest agrees.

Best course of action is to ask your priest!

I would also not PM a priest's personal details to someone else when they conducted the wedding celebration on the basis of being a family friend so they would have no reason to provide the same favour for a randomer on the internet. It still does not change the fact that it CAN be done.

username123 wrote: »

Ditto what I said above (not interested in debating it) - Tom Colton states on his website that he is registered by the state to carry out legal marriages.

if you actually look at the official listing of solemnisers, the column next to spiritualist union is RELIGIOUS!!!!!! Click on the link to the register of Solemnisers
http://www.groireland.ie/getting_married.htm#section2

The HSE allow him to do legal marriages but it is classed as a religion - a non-denominational religion, but a religious ceremony nonetheless. The fact it does not conform to 'mainstream religious beliefs' does not prevent it from being a form of religion, non-mainstream though it may be.

username123 · 31-05-2013 3:41pm

Little Ted wrote: »

I would also not PM a priest's personal details to someone else when they conducted the wedding celebration on the basis of being a family friend so they would have no reason to provide the same favour for a randomer on the internet. It still does not change the fact that it CAN be done.

If you wont share the info with the OP then its as good as being something that most people (ie, not people who have priests as good friends) have no access to.

I dont doubt there are exceptions - but if the exceptions are illness, good friendship etc - how does this help the OP? For ordinary Joe Soaps - using a priest means using a church.

tatli_lokma · 31-05-2013 3:44pm

username123 wrote: »

If you wont share the info with the OP then its as good as being something that most people (ie, not people who have priests as good friends) have no access to.

I dont doubt there are exceptions - but if the exceptions are illness, good friendship etc - how does this help the OP? For ordinary Joe Soaps - using a priest means using a church.

Seeing as the OP's in-laws to be seem to want a religious ceremony, you never know they might be well-in with the a priest or know of one. So I don't think it is unhelpful to tell OP that if you know a priest personally or get the right priest you can have what you are asking for. Probably more unhelpful to tell them they absolutely cannot have what they are asking for when in fact they can, circumstances permitting.

username123 · 31-05-2013 4:20pm

Little Ted wrote: »

...you never know...

Indeed. Perhaps the OP will be one of these exceptional circumstances.

emuhead · 03-06-2013 8:49pm

OP, my friend had a civil ceremony in the UK then had a blessing of her marraige in a Catholic Church in Ireland afterwards. According to a friend of the family (priest) the blessing was bending the rules a bit as officially the Catholic Church see it as either a church wedding or not. So maybe a blessing in a Church on a later date would be an option? Hope that's of some help. All the best with your wedding

AnneMA · 06-06-2013 9:18am

emuhead wrote: »

OP, my friend had a civil ceremony in the UK then had a blessing of her marraige in a Catholic Church in Ireland afterwards. According to a friend of the family (priest) the blessing was bending the rules a bit as officially the Catholic Church see it as either a church wedding or not. So maybe a blessing in a Church on a later date would be an option? Hope that's of some help. All the best with your wedding

Indeed this would be bending the rules. If either of you are Catholic (have been baptised, even if you are lapsed or no longer consider yourself Catholic), then the Church will not consider a civil ceremony to be a valid Catholic marriage, and a priest should not bless such an arrangement.

summer_chic · 10-06-2013 10:25pm

I was at a venue yesterday and it was clearly explained to me that you can have a hse registrar perform the ceremony during office hours or you can have a recognised solemniser - she said that the list is available on the groireland.ie website , but its not made easy. This venue has two priests who are solemnisers who will fulfil the legal requirements of a civil ceremony but will slot this into a mass , without it being an actual marriage mass per se. I was at one such ceremony in this venue a year ago so it is definitely possible. Finding out the priests could be the interesting part !!

Non Church ceremony with a priest??

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