The Leaving Cert needs to be more modern

So, today I brought my laptop to the library and decided to type a Macbeth essay (since the LC is so close, I haven't time to waste writing essays)
And I typed my Macbeth essay in just over 35 minutes which got me thinking, could the exams not just go electronic? Is it really fair that they mark us on how well we do in such time restricted conditions?
I will openly say that I don't do well in English exams compared to other exams but I do really well in class. Why? Because I never have enough time!
Do you think it's possible? Should we be doing this to give students a better chance to show off what they know?

Moromaster

Logistics.

kingcobra

But sure there's no point investing in thousands of computers when you can just extend the exam time by 20 minutes or so.

randylonghorn

Deleted User wrote: »

So, today I brought my laptop to the library and decided to type a Macbeth essay (since the LC is so close, I haven't time to waste writing essays)
And I typed my Macbeth essay in just over 35 minutes which got me thinking, could the exams not just go electronic? Is it really fair that they mark us on how well we do in such time restricted conditions?
I will openly say that I don't do well in English exams compared to other exams but I do really well in class. Why? Because I never have enough time!
Do you think it's possible? Should we be doing this to give students a better chance to show off what they know?

Can you imagine the noise of 60 people tapping away on laptops in an exam hall and how distracting that would be for everyone?

After the Leaving Cert is over, and you have more time, have a go at calculating the cost of supplying 60,000-plus laptops for exam centres for the LC. And the cost of maintaining them / checking them each year. And replacing them after a few years. Where would they be stored? How much would that cost? How much would distribution and collection add to the bill? And what happens when someone breaks in and steals a load of them? (Or an unhappy LC student torches the place!)

What happens if someone is accustomed to working on a Mac, and the SEC supplies only Windows-based laptops? Or should students be able to designate which they want? (Factor in that extra cost.) For that matter, what about if the SEC supplies Dell Inspiron 15Rs ... doesn't that give an unfair advantage to those who use that machine every day at home, while others may be used to Acer, etc.?

What happens when laptops get a dose of BSOD? How many back-up laptops would provide a safe margin for each centre? (Factor in that extra cost.) What happens if they die during someone's exam?

Nor is everyone bringing in their own laptop a viable option, really. How much time / cost would be involved in checking each laptop to ensure that there are no notes hidden away somewhere? In fact, in general, using laptops at all greatly increases the potential for cheating, and the systems which would have to be put in place to deal with this. Would Spellcheck be turned off / locked out for all exams or only for English? How much work / cost would this involve?

And would the rich kid with the brand new laptop not have an advantage over the youngster with the 4 year old bargain-buy?

How much work / cost would be involved in transferring 60,000+ files for each and every exam to an EHD (and deleting the originals from the laptop before the next exam)? How would the SEC manage the distribution to correctors? What happens when an EHD fails without warning? How many back-ups would be a safe margin?

If they're brought in at LC, why not JC?

Just a few random questions which spring to mind! :pac:

SeanyboyQPR

randylonghorn wrote: »

Can you imagine the noise of 60 people tapping away on laptops in an exam hall and how distracting that would be for everyone?

After the Leaving Cert is over, and you have more time, have a go at calculating the cost of supplying 60,000-plus laptops for exam centres for the LC. And the cost of maintaining them / checking them each year. And replacing them after a few years. Where would they be stored? How much would that cost? How much would distribution and collection add to the bill? And what happens when someone breaks in and steals a load of them? (Or an unhappy LC student torches the place!)

What happens if someone is accustomed to working on a Mac, and the SEC supplies only Windows-based laptops? Or should students be able to designate which they want? (Factor in that extra cost.) For that matter, what about if the SEC supplies Dell Inspiron 15Rs ... doesn't that give an unfair advantage to those who use that machine every day at home, while others may be used to Acer, etc.?

What happens when laptops get a dose of BSOD? How many back-up laptops would provide a safe margin for each centre? (Factor in that extra cost.) What happens if they die during someone's exam?

Nor is everyone bringing in their own laptop a viable option, really. How much time / cost would be involved in checking each laptop to ensure that there are no notes hidden away somewhere? In fact, in general, using laptops at all greatly increases the potential for cheating, and the systems which would have to be put in place to deal with this. Would Spellcheck be turned off / locked out for all exams or only for English? How much work / cost would this involve?

And would the rich kid with the brand new laptop not have an advantage over the youngster with the 4 year old bargain-buy?

How much work / cost would be involved in transferring 60,000+ files for each and every exam to an EHD (and deleting the originals from the laptop before the next exam)? How would the SEC manage the distribution to correctors? What happens when an EHD fails without warning? How many back-ups would be a safe margin?

If they're brought in at LC, why not JC?

Just a few random questions which spring to mind! :pac:

Would it be fair to say you're not in support of the idea then?

hfallada

Isnt 10% of the leaving cert english grade system based on spelling. Some which a laptop would auto correct. Plus how could you safely secure hundreds of thousands of papers on the computer until each exam day? plus the SEC has some really usual rules for fairness eg every school has to use those ****ty red cd players which cost €400 but the quality is horrible

Peregrine

SeanyboyQPR wrote: »

Would it be fair to say you're not in support of the idea then?

Most, if not all of his questions are still valid. Electronic exams might sound great and everything but the reality is, it's not viable.

Now I'll be the first one to put my hand up and say I've never finished an English exam in the past 5 years. I also think a lot more technology can be used in schools and that more teachers should get on board but laptops simply aren't the answer to this problem.

60,000 students writing on the same type booklet at the same time is the easiest and fairest way of doing an exam. But as kingcobra said, students just HAVE to be given more time. Does the speed in which you can think of a response to a poem and the speed of your writing really matter? I'd be slow to come up with an answer and write it down and I always lose marks for it. The solution? More time or less questions but let's face it, it's never going to be less questions.

SeanyboyQPR

Nimrod 7 wrote: »

Most, if not all of his questions are still valid. Electronic exams might sound great and everything but the reality is, it's not viable.

Now I'll be the first one to put my hand up and say I've never finished an English exam in the past 5 years. I also think a lot more technology can be used in schools and that more teachers should get on board but laptops simply aren't the answer to this problem.

60,000 students writing on the same type booklet at the same time is the easiest and fairest way of doing an exam. But as kingcobra said, students just HAVE to be given more time. Does the speed in which you can think of a response to a poem and the speed of your writing really matter? I'd be slow to come up with an answer and write it down and I always lose marks for it. The solution? More time or less questions but let's face it, it's never going to be less questions.

Nah man I'm just kidding. Comparative should be done away with imo.

randylonghorn

SeanyboyQPR wrote: »

Would it be fair to say you're not in support of the idea then?

Not really, actually.

I can see a lot of advantages as well, I just think there are huge difficulties on a lot of different fronts at the moment, and that it will be a number of years before this is possible.

For example, I could go all sci-fi on it and visualise schools of the future 20(?) years down the road where ...

... each desk has a slim laptop / tablet built in as part of normal school equipment (and used for teaching during the year ofc)

... each student has a unique log-in on the system anyway (for mobility between classrooms)

... the SEC issue exam numbers and a further log-in to students for the LC

... all units are linked to a central school server, and can be centrally programmed to:

- block all internet access, and all ports for EHDs / memory sticks / etc., for the exams;
- turn off spellcheck / autocorrect
- allow the student access only to one unique folder for each exam
- back-up students' work automatically at regular intervals (say every three minutes) in case of unit or system failure
- automatically upload all files at the end of the exam, and transmit via a secure line to the SEC
- automatically maintain a secure, locked back-up on the school server which can be accessed only by a series of SEC passwords until the SEC central computer acknowledges (a) safe receipt of all files and (b) that a secure back-up has been made by the SEC, at which stage the school back-up will automatically be deleted.

There would still be issues no doubt ... every time there is an advance in technology, there tends to be an equivalent advance in the ability to hack and crack and subvert ... but that level of technology available as a matter of course in schools would make the OPs idea much more viable.

And I suspect the day will come ... maybe even for your kids!

But it's not here or nearly here yet!

Well I was thinking myself if there was a way to supply your own laptop to the SEC and they wipe it and supply it back to you for the exam and then it would be stored until the next one.
I just think it should be an option. I'm the only person in my class who is a faster typer than writer, so they should still have the option to write.
With regards to spell check, mine only works when I am connected to the internet so just disable WiFi facilities during exams I suppose.

spurious

Presuming there is working wifi in the first place.
Not all schools are as well equipped as some here seem to think.

spurious

spurious wrote: »

Presuming there is working wifi in the first place.
Not all schools are as well equipped as some here seem to think.

I know mine doesn't!

frozenfrozen

plug in usb stick, copy essay, paste essay, continue to sleep

Prodigious

The reason behind your post is valid. What logic is there in putting us under pressure with time? If there was an extra 30 minutes for English paper 2, the quality of answers would be certainly of a higher standard.

mrkiscool2

FYI OP, some students with disabilities such as Dyslexia and Dyspraxia can use computers, but you have to qualify and it's a very dragged out process. Again, it all comes down to cost and the amount of noise the typing would make. I got pissed off enough with the sound of 120 pens against paper, never mind the clacking of the keyboards!

Peregrine

mrkiscool2 wrote: »

FYI OP, some students with disabilities such as Dyslexia and Dyspraxia can use computers, but you have to qualify and it's a very dragged out process. Again, it all comes down to cost and the amount of noise the typing would make. I got pissed off enough with the sound of 120 pens against paper, never mind the clacking of the keyboards!

Those laptops are stripped down word processors with no spelling or grammar check, this will have to be done to 60,000 laptops for this to work.

Students who do have to use laptops actually sit in a separate room with another examiner.

Students sitting behind them might be able to see your work if you're using a laptop, how will we deal with that?

Also, what about subjects like Maths, Physics, Chemistry, Art, Biology, Georgraphy, DCG have to use mathematical and scientific notations, draw diagrams, sketches etc.

What will we do about that?

Just use laptops for English and History?

bitburger

this is actually a very good idea but the implementation is hard, im sitting next week and i can type much faster than i can handwrite, my handwriting is also stupidly hard to understand, what would be needed are thin client type machines, no hard drives at all, they could boot off of a central server machine that is brought in on exam day, everyone logs on with their own exam number and the clock starts,

the software would need to be written from the ground up though, if it was running on windows it would need to work similar to the prometric testing software, ie you do not get any interaction with the Os at all just the exam software which can not be taken out of full screeen, work is quick saved every minute very similar to how ms word can recover from a crash, in the event of failure the user logs in on a new terminal which is swapped out in seconds and when they log back in they are back where it last did a quick save and the timer counts down from there



ahhh i can dream

ray2012

randylonghorn wrote: »

Can you imagine the noise of 60 people tapping away on laptops in an exam hall and how distracting that would be for everyone?

After the Leaving Cert is over, and you have more time, have a go at calculating the cost of supplying 60,000-plus laptops for exam centres for the LC. And the cost of maintaining them / checking them each year. And replacing them after a few years. Where would they be stored? How much would that cost? How much would distribution and collection add to the bill? And what happens when someone breaks in and steals a load of them? (Or an unhappy LC student torches the place!)

What happens if someone is accustomed to working on a Mac, and the SEC supplies only Windows-based laptops? Or should students be able to designate which they want? (Factor in that extra cost.) For that matter, what about if the SEC supplies Dell Inspiron 15Rs ... doesn't that give an unfair advantage to those who use that machine every day at home, while others may be used to Acer, etc.?

What happens when laptops get a dose of BSOD? How many back-up laptops would provide a safe margin for each centre? (Factor in that extra cost.) What happens if they die during someone's exam?

Nor is everyone bringing in their own laptop a viable option, really. How much time / cost would be involved in checking each laptop to ensure that there are no notes hidden away somewhere? In fact, in general, using laptops at all greatly increases the potential for cheating, and the systems which would have to be put in place to deal with this. Would Spellcheck be turned off / locked out for all exams or only for English? How much work / cost would this involve?

And would the rich kid with the brand new laptop not have an advantage over the youngster with the 4 year old bargain-buy?

How much work / cost would be involved in transferring 60,000+ files for each and every exam to an EHD (and deleting the originals from the laptop before the next exam)? How would the SEC manage the distribution to correctors? What happens when an EHD fails without warning? How many back-ups would be a safe margin?

If they're brought in at LC, why not JC?

Just a few random questions which spring to mind! :pac:

Too many rhetorical questions! :eek: :P

I am just god awful slow at writing! It is one of the reasons I don't do history. That and I find it boring as hell.
I just don't think it's fair that I could get an A in geography/English but won't because I couldn't write what I know down.

naoise225

No way. Our language skills have already been ruined by technology! An additional time allowance would be great, but definitely not the use of laptops.

Jordan537

it could easily be done on computers, if each school used the schools computers in the computer room. Software to turn the pc into an exam pc wouldnt be that costly and could be easily done. And it will, one day.

Rented Mule

randylonghorn wrote: »

Can you imagine the noise of 60 people tapping away on laptops in an exam hall and how distracting that would be for everyone?

After the Leaving Cert is over, and you have more time, have a go at calculating the cost of supplying 60,000-plus laptops for exam centres for the LC. And the cost of maintaining them / checking them each year. And replacing them after a few years. Where would they be stored? How much would that cost? How much would distribution and collection add to the bill? And what happens when someone breaks in and steals a load of them? (Or an unhappy LC student torches the place!)

What happens if someone is accustomed to working on a Mac, and the SEC supplies only Windows-based laptops? Or should students be able to designate which they want? (Factor in that extra cost.) For that matter, what about if the SEC supplies Dell Inspiron 15Rs ... doesn't that give an unfair advantage to those who use that machine every day at home, while others may be used to Acer, etc.?

What happens when laptops get a dose of BSOD? How many back-up laptops would provide a safe margin for each centre? (Factor in that extra cost.) What happens if they die during someone's exam?

Nor is everyone bringing in their own laptop a viable option, really. How much time / cost would be involved in checking each laptop to ensure that there are no notes hidden away somewhere? In fact, in general, using laptops at all greatly increases the potential for cheating, and the systems which would have to be put in place to deal with this. Would Spellcheck be turned off / locked out for all exams or only for English? How much work / cost would this involve?

And would the rich kid with the brand new laptop not have an advantage over the youngster with the 4 year old bargain-buy?

How much work / cost would be involved in transferring 60,000+ files for each and every exam to an EHD (and deleting the originals from the laptop before the next exam)? How would the SEC manage the distribution to correctors? What happens when an EHD fails without warning? How many back-ups would be a safe margin?

If they're brought in at LC, why not JC?

Just a few random questions which spring to mind! :pac:

First off, it would make the most sense to go to a Citrix/VDI based environment and not 'laptops'. Why use hardware/applications/licenses that you don't need ? Not only that, you only have to create one standard image for each exam that can be shared by all students taking that particular test. There is no need to delete anything after the exams as nothing is saved on the desktop.

spurious

Jordan537 wrote: »

it could easily be done on computers, if each school used the schools computers in the computer room. Software to turn the pc into an exam pc wouldnt be that costly and could be easily done. And it will, one day.

That would be a pretty big computer room for the numbers sitting the Leaving in many schools. It might work in small school who only have one small LC class.

Peregrine

Jordan537 wrote: »

it could easily be done on computers, if each school used the schools computers in the computer room. Software to turn the pc into an exam pc wouldnt be that costly and could be easily done. And it will, one day.

Did you even read the thread?

Some schools have up to 200 students sitting the Leaving Cert at one time and they don't have 200 computers.

You know yourself that school computers aren't exactly in the best condition. How much work will have to be done to make sure that these files are safe? Will one back up do? And when it will happen, what will we do about scientific and mathematical notations, diagrams, sketches etc., which is a huge part of most of the subjects, bar English, History and Classics.

What about students being able to see each others work? School computers are awfully close together, are you suggesting a redesign of every computer lab in the country? That will need more space which most labs don't have (don't forget the extra computers they'll need). So computer rooms will have to be doubled if not trebled in size.

What about students who aren't quick typers? I know most people on boards will be but in reality, a huge percentage of teenagers are still hunt and peck typers. What about the huge disadvantage you're placing on them?

Rented Mule

Nimrod 7 wrote: »

Did you even read the thread?

Some schools have up to 200 students sitting the Leaving Cert at one time and they don't have 200 computers.

You don't need 200 'computers' if you go to a Citrix based environment for the exams. You could use the computers that you already have for some exams, and something such as WYSE/Zenith terminals (which are relatively inexpensive).

Peregrine

Rented Mule wrote: »

You don't need 200 'computers' if you go to a Citrix based environment for the exams. You could use the computers that you already have for some exams, and something such as WYSE/Zenith terminals (which are relatively inexpensive).

But even if we were to go with the whole virtual desktop route it still leaves the problem of poor and totally unreliable school networks.

WYSE Xenith terminals rather than computers, I have to say that's not a bad idea. It does beg the question, why can't all schools use zero client terminals rather than a PC? Citrix can be as functional as you want it to be.

But there are still a lot of other problems and something like this still can't be done reliably enough for the next few decades at least.

Edit: Now that I think about, my school does use something similar in one of the labs at the moment.

The Pheasant

Everyone would love more time in the exams, but surely the time pressure forms a part of the overall exam i.e. your ability to analyse, reason and develop points in sufficient detail all while the clock is ticking down

Peregrine

The Pheasant wrote: »

Everyone would love more time in the exams, but surely the time pressure forms a part of the overall exam i.e. your ability to analyse, reason and develop points in sufficient detail all while the clock is ticking down

Surely the aim should be to get the students best answer rather than quickest answer?

Some people are quicker than others at coming up with points and some are quicker at writing. That doesn't mean they should get more marks.

There's no rush, we're only writing about the poetry of Plath/Civil War/Breathing System, not inventing the cure for cancer. If a student can only produce their best result with 30 more minutes, he/she should be given those 30 more minutes.

The Pheasant

Nimrod 7 wrote: »

Surely the aim should be to get the students best answer rather than quickest answer?

Some people are quicker than others at coming up with points and some are quicker at writing. That doesn't mean they should get more marks.

There's no rush, we're only writing about the poetry of Plath/Civil War/Breathing System, not inventing the cure for cancer. If a student can only produce their best result with 30 more minutes, he/she should be given those 30 more minutes.

Well of course people will produce better answers under laxer time constraints but where does it stop? If you gave an extra half hour we'll say, all the people who were gonna get A's in the first place will still get A's and probably better A's at that...a large amount of those who would have been in the B1/B2 bracket could probably move up to an A given an added 30 minutes also.

The result?

A lot more A's, exams criticised for being too easy, questions get harder and longer to answer comprehensibly and we simply regress to the old system but just half an hour longer than before

Denis322

I get to type mine anyway

For the mocks I had 3 other people in a small room typing with me, and, if anything, I preferred the sound of typing over the silence of the exam halls.

Peregrine

The Pheasant wrote: »

Well of course people will produce better answers under laxer time constraints but where does it stop? If you gave an extra half hour we'll say, all the people who were gonna get A's in the first place will still get A's and probably better A's at that...a large amount of those who would have been in the B1/B2 bracket could probably move up to an A given an added 30 minutes also.

The result?

A lot more A's, exams criticised for being too easy, questions get harder and longer to answer comprehensibly and we simply regress to the old system but just half an hour longer than before

It stops when the majority of students are actually able to finish the exam with satisfaction, it won't be 5 or 6 hours. I don't think people who finish in time now will get really better results if there was more time, your best is your best. You might be able to come up with a few extra points. The people who never had time to finish it properly will also write their best. Neither group of students will be able to write for ever while increasing the quality of answers. At one point we'll have everyone's best answer and we're not far from that now, all we need is a few extra minutes.

A lot more deserved As, if they're testing you in English and you deserved an A, why should that be taken away from you because you're slow at writing? To hell with the bell curve and people criticising the exams. Teachers will understand why there are more As and I can't see them being unhappy with it, students will be pleased with their results, who's left? The totally unaware but yet self proclaimed all knowing parents?? Screw em.

EoghanIRL

It would cost too much money to implement . A system by which the exam is sent to a secure encrypted network would need to be set up. This allow opens up new problems . What if the network is hacked and scripts are viewed . I think the Irish government wouldn't fund it . Even though it would be great . We don't even have wifi in school here .

The Pheasant

Nimrod 7 wrote: »

A lot more deserved As, if they're testing you in English and you deserved an A, why should that be taken away from you because you're slow at writing? To hell with the bell curve and people criticising the exams. Teachers will understand why there are more As and I can't see them being unhappy with it, students will be pleased with their results, who's left? The totally unaware but yet self proclaimed all knowing parents?? Screw em.

And what about getting into university? It's already competitive enough as it is without every second person getting an A...and would students be pleased? Is it much of an accomplishment to get an A in an easier exam?

Peregrine

The Pheasant wrote: »

And what about getting into university? It's already competitive enough as it is without every second person getting an A...and would students be pleased? Is it much of an accomplishment to get an A in an easier exam?

The exams won't be any easier, there will just be enough to time to do them this time round. If everyone gets 20 or 25 extra points by finishing the exam, I don't see anything wrong with the points for courses being increased by 20 or 25 points. People who deserve it will get it rather than people who can write faster.

The Pheasant

How will they not be easier? What about for the people who can finish them as it is?

Peregrine

The Pheasant wrote: »

How will they not be easier? What about for the people who can finish them as it is?

They will face competition which they didn't before due to an unfair time limit. It's not fair to cripple some students and thus eliminating the competition for others.

Say two students are given a project and say one finished it in 5 days and the other one could only finish it in 6 days and they both got an A2. Would the first student's A2 be somehow worth more than the other student's?

Now imagine they were both given a 4 day limit. The first student managed to just about finish it but it's not as good, the second student spends the same amount of time on his one as the first student (no slacking) but is unable to finish it properly in 4 days. The first one gets an B1, the other only gets an B3 this time due to it not being fully complete. Did both students deserve an A2? Why was the time allocated less than the time it takes to finish it properly? Surely if you are testing someone you would allocate them enough time to do it properly.

Don't tell me that you've never asked the teacher for more time to finish a project/essay/homework/test?

The Pheasant

Don't tell me that you've never asked the teacher for more time to finish a project/essay/homework/test?[/QUOTE]

I have but only because I was slacking...tbh I'd fall into the fast writers category; but in any case I think time management and being able to efficiently and effectively answer a question is part of the exam. They design the question so that you should be able to answer it properly in the time allocated, if under pressure

Peregrine

The Pheasant wrote: »

Don't tell me that you've never asked the teacher for more time to finish a project/essay/homework/test?

I have but only because I was slacking...tbh I'd fall into the fast writers category; but in any case I think time management and being able to efficiently and effectively answer a question is part of the exam. They design the question so that you should be able to answer it properly in the time allocated, if under pressure

Agree to disagree?

The Pheasant

Nimrod 7 wrote: »

Agree to disagree?

Deal

reap-a-rat

I see where you're coming from, but here's my two cents (echoing what's been said so far, really) - it's the logistics of it, the cost - it would be extortionate to run that!

I'm just finished up a Computer Science course and we wrote all our programming exams, despite the fact that coding on paper is a nightmare (and IDE is like Word for programming - it corrects some of your stupid errors automatically, or at least highlights em for you).

In English, one is expected to have a good grasp of spelling and grammar alongside a good understanding of poetry, drama etc. PCs would eliminate that, thus increasing the marks going for other things.

The cost of maintaining a computer for that kind of thing would be monstrous - imagine the number of people accidentally spilling stiff on the keyboards, the cost of having them all plugged in, the wear and tear on a keyboard and so on. Also, you're laptop needs a reboot in the middle of the exam. You're using a 10 year old laptop. It's 20 mins before you're back to work (and longer if you've random updates going on!)

It's just not feasible, really. And it's no harm, some things don't need technology just yet. Also, just because you type quicker than you write, does not mean the same is true for other folks - imagine some kids who didn't grow up with a laptop as an extension of their body - it would take them the whole exam to do the unseen poem! Writing is a fairer ground all round, I feel. If you've made it to LC, you've spent the last 13 or 14 years practicing how to write - the same can not be said for using a computer.

heffo500

I'd be afraid it would end up like the electronic voting disaster.

And I don't think the grades will increase by much since when I did my leaving cert we were told the examination is a bell curve so if the standard goes up overall then the standard you need to meet will to get an A will rise too and this is decided at the examiners conference.