Sheikh Imran Hosein

Brown Bomber

Hi everyone,

While I don't share this mans religious views I find him a very interesting figure. I'd be keen to find out more about him from a Muslims perspective, Though I shouldn't assume that anyone will know who he is I suppose. Here is a snippet from one of his talks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nR7-Cmszpo

irishconvert

He seems very accurate in his predictions I have seen in other videos. I remember one of his talks I listened to described very accurately the Iraq war (or it may have been Afghanistan). It was only later I found out the talk was given about 5 years before the actual war.

brianbeenan

Typical Muslim view of Israel. Israel is the ONLY secular democracy in the Middle east where married gay people can live in peace along side ultra orthodox Jews... What has the rest of Israels neighbors got to offer? (And don't get me started on women's rights. )

wes

brianbeenan wrote: »

Typical Muslim view of Israel. Israel is the ONLY secular democracy in the Middle east

Interesting claim, you mind letting Israels leaders know that? They are rather insistent that its a Jewish state..........

brianbeenan wrote: »

where married gay people can live in peace along side ultra orthodox Jews... What has the rest of Israels neighbors got to offer? (And don't get me started on women's rights. )

Not exactly true:

Ultra-Orthodox Jews protest Gay Pride event in Jerusalem

Israel doesn't have any kind of civil marriage let alone gay marriage. To be fair, there is recognition equivalent to common law marriage, but it would be inaccurate to say gay marriage is legal there. What they have there is a legal loop hole for gay couples, and for couples who want a civil marriage.

brianbeenan

wes wrote: »

Interesting claim, you mind letting Israels leaders know that? They are rather insistent that its a Jewish state..........

Not exactly true:

Ultra-Orthodox Jews protest Gay Pride event in Jerusalem

Israel doesn't have any kind of civil marriage let alone gay marriage. To be fair, there is recognition equivalent to common law marriage, but it would be inaccurate to say gay marriage is legal there. What they have there is a legal loop hole for gay couples, and for couples who want a civil marriage.

I am pretty conservative Catholic myself but who happened to meet a gay couple from Israel via a project I was doing. So I can only judge the facts from their point of view. They have adopted kids and have the privileges that a straight couple would have.

For sure there is no country in the middle east with that level of acceptance.

Yes the ultra Orthodox jews are not happy.. But Then again in the US you also have protests for ultra right wing Christians.

Israel has a lot of positives and certainly they look after all their citizens,, not just the practicing Jews.

wes

brianbeenan wrote: »

Israel has a lot of positives and certainly they look after all their citizens,, not just the practicing Jews.

Not true either. The Palestinians are 2nd class citizens, and there openly discriminated against:

Nazareth Illit mayor says, ‘If you think I’m a racist, then Israel is a racist state’

Then there is the 2 tier system of justice in the occupied territories, which is similar to apartheid under the former regime in South Africa.

Yes, Israel treats most of its Jewish citizens pretty well, but Palestinians are at best 2nd class citizens, and in most cases, the state of Israel wants rid of them.

brianbeenan

wes wrote: »

Not true either. The Palestinians are 2nd class citizens, and there openly discriminated against:

Nazareth Illit mayor says, ‘If you think I’m a racist, then Israel is a racist state’

Then there is the 2 tier system of justice in the occupied territories, which is similar to apartheid under the former regime in South Africa.

Yes, Israel treats most of its Jewish citizens pretty well, but Palestinians are at best 2nd class citizens, and in most cases, the state of Israel wants rid of them.

I used to think like that until I went there. there are muslims who call themselves palestinians all over Israel (not just westbank) and they are employed alongside jews in many places.

Obviously if you are hostile towards the state you are not going to be welcome.. But if tomorrow a new islamic state of Palestine were formed do you think it would be open and inclusive? Is there any muslim state open and inclusive?

Tom Dunne

brianbeenan wrote: »

Typical Muslim view of Israel. Israel is the ONLY secular democracy in the Middle east where married gay people can live in peace along side ultra orthodox Jews... What has the rest of Israels neighbors got to offer? (And don't get me started on women's rights. )

mod hat on: can I request that you tone down the open hostility? It is possible to have a debate and get your point across without adopting such a stance.

Thanks.

wes

brianbeenan wrote: »

I used to think like that until I went there. there are muslims who call themselves palestinians all over Israel (not just westbank) and they are employed alongside jews in many places.

Except there still not treated the same, do not get the same lever of government funding, and as you can see from the link I provided, openly discriminated against, and that inside Israel proper. In the occupied territories, its even worse.

The entire notion that Israel is inclusive is laughable, when you see what the mayor of upper Nazareth is up too.

brianbeenan

wes wrote: »

Except there still not treated the same, do not get the same lever of government funding, and as you can see from the link I provided, openly discriminated against, and that inside Israel proper. In the occupied territories, its even worse.

The entire notion that Israel is inclusive is laughable, when you see what the mayor of upper Nazareth is up too.

I admit they are not treated the same.. or rather there can be a certain stand off between them. However Israel’s hospitals are filled with Arab doctors, pharmacies all over the country employ Arab pharmacists, hi-tech industries are hiring more and more Arab engineers... That's the Reality on the Ground. If you are there day to day Jews deal with Arabs.. I suppose once they both know there is a certain security and trust in the relationship then both can move on, after all Arabs in Israel by law have to be treated the same as Jews.

I don't think its a perfect situation, there is of course a lot of history behind the state.

1.5 Millions Greeks were expelled from Turkey who have lived their for over a Thousand years. And 500 Muslims expelled from Modern day Greece and sent to Turkey. There has been population displacements all over Europe, Right? No, well not for those forced to abandon their homes. But Israel sees itself as the only secure place where a Jew can be a Jew among Jews..

I suppose the point I am trying to make after this ramble is that Israel is not what comes out in the Media, when you go there you see a very different side, and you see a very large Arab population with a high standard of living (those in Israel not the west Bank), You see them building a modern city with a new tram that was on the old East/West Jerusalem border.

If tomorrow Hamas took over Israel for arguments sack.. What would be the Political Ideology they would bring? inclusion? respect for gay rights? Islamic fundamentalism which Hamas subscribes to is not inclusive. Look at how Morsi tried to swing Egypt once he got into Power..

wes

brianbeenan wrote: »

I admit they are not treated the same.. or rather there can be a certain stand off between them. However Israel’s hospitals are filled with Arab doctors, pharmacies all over the country employ Arab pharmacists, hi-tech industries are hiring more and more Arab engineers... That's the Reality on the Ground. If you are there day to day Jews deal with Arabs.. I suppose once they both know there is a certain security and trust in the relationship then both can move on, after all Arabs in Israel by law have to be treated the same as Jews.

What you are saying is a fantasy. The reality is that most Palestinians in Israel are essentially 2nd class citizens:

Israeli court ruling on citizenship 'racist'

I fail to see how there is equality before the law.

You can paint a rosy picture, but its simply untrue, and ignores and down play discrimination in favour of a non-existent fantasy. You have ignored any example that shows your rosy picture to be untrue.

brianbeenan wrote: »

I don't think its a perfect situation, there is of course a lot of history behind the state.

1.5 Millions Greeks were expelled from Turkey who have lived their for over a Thousand years. And 500 Muslims expelled from Modern day Greece and sent to Turkey. There has been population displacements all over Europe, Right? No, well not for those forced to abandon their homes. But Israel sees itself as the only secure place where a Jew can be a Jew among Jews..

Its the year 2013, not the 1920. There are all sorts of things that people did back then that is no longer acceptable. Expanding outside your borders being one of them, and ethnic cleansing is another.

brianbeenan wrote: »

I suppose the point I am trying to make after this ramble is that Israel is not what comes out in the Media, when you go there you see a very different side, and you see a very large Arab population with a high standard of living (those in Israel not the west Bank), You see them building a modern city with a new tram that was on the old East/West Jerusalem border.

The tram you refer to is part of Israels colonization project, and illegal under international law. To use Israels theft of land as an example of how great Israel is, is pretty damn hilarious. They have no business in East Jerusalem, and there actions there are illegal under international law. Israel can do as the please on there own land, but have no business trying to steal more land elsewhere.

Also, yes Palestinians in Israel would certainly have a higher standard of living than those in the occupied territories, as the occupation destroys the economy there.

brianbeenan wrote: »

If tomorrow Hamas took over Israel for arguments sack.. What would be the Political Ideology they would bring? inclusion? respect for gay rights? Islamic fundamentalism which Hamas subscribes to is not inclusive. Look at how Morsi tried to swing Egypt once he got into Power..

Hypotheticals are irrelevant. The reality is that Israel is stealing land that doesn't belong to them, and they most certainly don't run any kind of inclusive state, and I have provided several example of that, and you have chosen to ignore them, and instead paint a false fantasy instead.

Jan T.

It's right to highlight any abuses of human rights by Israel, but Israel has a right to exist.

Why is arab terrorism and the arab terrorist desire to wipe out Israel and every jewish man woman and child always ignored ?

Israel for all its faults is prepared to co-exist. The arab terrorists are not. That is a huge difference.

It's the extremists and their supporters on each side that are the real problem in the middle east.

wes

Jan T. wrote: »

It's right to highlight any abuses of human rights by Israel, but Israel has a right to exist.

People have rights not states. So yes Israeli's have every right to belong to a state, but then so do the Palestinians, but Israel via there colonial enterprise denies them that right.

Jan T. wrote: »

Why is arab terrorism and the arab terrorist desire to wipe out Israel and every jewish man woman and child always ignored ?

Your going a bit over board with the hyperbole there. Israel tends to kill far more civilians than the other side btw.

Jan T. wrote: »

Israel for all its faults is prepared to co-exist. The arab terrorists are not. That is a huge difference.

The existence of Israel's colonial enterprise begs to differ.

Jan T. wrote: »

It's the extremists and their supporters on each side that are the real problem in the middle east.

Yes, true enough.

SoulandForm

brianbeenan wrote: »

1.5 Millions Greeks were expelled from Turkey who have lived their for over a Thousand years. And 500 Muslims expelled from Modern day Greece and sent to Turkey. There has been population displacements all over Europe, Right? No, well not for those forced to abandon their homes. But Israel sees itself as the only secure place where a Jew can be a Jew among Jews..

I know he has gone but it should be pointed out that Attaturk was a militantly secularist Turkish racial nationalist as opposed to a Muslim. Its also very interesting that this poster praises Israel for being a secular democracy and yet supports Franco's coup against the Spanish Revolution, even to the point of starting a thread claiming a fascist partisan was a Christian martyr.

The hypocrisy of so-called conservatives in the west in regards to Muslims can really be breathe taking.

Palmach

wes wrote: »

and they most certainly don't run any kind of inclusive state, and I have provided several example of that, and you have chosen to ignore them, and instead paint a false fantasy instead.

There are Arab Judges even in the Supreme court. Arab heads of hospitals. Arabs have full rights. There is discrimination similar to the discrimination suffered by Kurds in Turkey but even less so. By and large it is the only thing approaching a western style liberal regime in the middle East.

Here are a few links with pesky facts in them.

http://www.freedomhouse.org/report-types/freedom-world

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index
Note 2013 on the above

booom

Any territory seized in time of war comes under the rule of the victor. Simple as. History shows that if the victor chooses not to keep seized lands, for whatever reason, be it as a political bargaining chip, security over-reach, financial costs associated with occupation etc. etc, then they will usually revert to previous ownership. Lets not forget, the west bank and east Jerusalem were part of Jordan before the Six day war. I realise there's enough there to split hairs over for decades (hence to position we find ourselves in today). Regardless of your position on war or any type of armed conflict, most states in the current international system are carved out of conflict, and not always to everyone's satisfaction- look at our own situation, cyprus, kashmir- the list goes on and on. If every nation that engaged in war (no matter what their objective or motive) returned to their pre-conflict borders what would the map look like today? I realise this may be a tad off topic and I believe the issues surrounding the west bank and wider regional cultural and geographical issues are myriad, occupying minds far, far greater than mine and merit more than a few lines on a forum, but I believe the simple adage -to the victor:the spoils- has been forgotten here.