Options Available - Farming

Caroline12

Hi All

My husband recently found out he is not getting the family farm which he has worked on for a number of years, looked after the breeding, AI, got in an addtional milk qouta in his name etc. The farm is in debt, but his parents on in denial - instead they have told him his younger brother will be getting it. It was a major kick in the face, as you can imagine - but he is willing to accept and move on.

He is lucky enough to only be in his younger 30's and has a full-time job as a herdsmanager with a local farmer, but i know his dreams have been shattered. He is well known for his work ethic and dairy farming knowledge and really wants to some day reach succession - my question is what options are out there, for him to either progress further, get involved in a partnership etc. Any help, or guidance would be extremly appreciated. He is looking into partnerships but if he has not equity/assets, is he eligible - he can only bring to the table his skills, knowledge and work ethic...

Also he did complete agricultural college, obtained the Green Cert etc.
Thanks again guys.

Manoffeeling

Sent a pm

maxxuumman

Sorry to hear about your predicament. When it comes it land some parents/family can be real pr1cks.

Caroline12

Manoffeeling wrote: »

Sent a pm

Thank you so much I cannot seem to reply to your pm due to my low post count! But I understand what you mean - the only issue is because the level of debt already accumulated due to the farm been run to the ground by his dad and it does continue and will do for another 10 years, my husband is on this forum so I will ask him to PM you later, thanks again.

Timmaay

Caroline12 wrote: »

and really wants to some day reach succession - my question is what options are out there, for him to either progress further, get involved in a partnership etc. Any help, or guidance would be extremly appreciated. He is looking into partnerships but if he has not equity/assets, is he eligible - he can only bring to the table his skills, knowledge and work ethic...

Looking to the future on a positive note (which I will fully admit many farmers are not giving the previous 12months of weather we have had!), Dairying is thankfully starting to evolve in Ireland, obviously mostly down to the end of quotas. Opportunities such as partnerships, taking over existing dairyfarms, and simply going it alone and starting a greenfield dairyfarm do most certainly exist. It will take a lucky break I'll admit, but he should get word out that he is looking for a partnership, I have seen ads on the likes of donedeal looking for opportunities, if the figures are true about the high proportion of elderly dairyfarmers with no successor identified, then there will certainly should be scope to go into partnership with the likes.

You said he has purchased additional milk quota, I think he can transfer it into a partnership on another farm, so that is certainly a useful item to bring to a new partnership, alongside his skills etc. Just on the question asking is he eligable also, there is not any necessity for a partner to bring capital items into the partnership, once he is a qualified farmer.

Caroline12

Thanks for your information it is really helpful- he is going to look into partnership and advertise it, no harm him spreading the word...

dar31

can he take the quote that was purchased by him and bring it into a new partnership, this could be a big help in sourcing a partnership or a herd managers job.
if the quota was bought in his name then i assume it is his outright!!!

Caroline12

dar31 wrote: »

can he take the quote that was purchased by him and bring it into a new partnership, this could be a big help in sourcing a partnership or a herd managers job.
if the quota was bought in his name then i assume it is his outright!!!

He did buy it in his name and was in partnership with his parents for years, never got a cent out of it!

Manoffeeling

If there was a partnership, then he has a very strong case. I was in a very similar situation but called my parents bluff. My father was wrong and from what I can see here, your father in law is being very unfair. Take advice and don't be afraid to look for your rights.

Timmaay

Caroline12 wrote: »

He did buy it in his name and was in partnership with his parents for years, never got a cent out of it!

Hmm if he was in a partnership already with them that possibly changes things, extra capital built up during the partnership I think would be divided amoung both partners on the exit of the partnership. I assume the partnership was drawn up by teagasc, you are best getting on to your local teagasc adviser in that case, who will help advise you on the specifics, or find futher help if they don't know themselves.

Manoffeeling

Timmaay wrote: »

Hmm if he was in a partnership already with them that possibly changes things, extra capital built up during the partnership I think would be divided amoung both partners on the exit of the partnership. I assume the partnership was drawn up by teagasc, you are best getting on to your local teagasc adviser in that case, who will help advise you on the specifics, or find futher help if they don't know themselves.

The accountant is the place to go. Is there a tax partnership number? Were accounts jointly submitted? Have you got a statement with both your parents and your husbands name on it? If you have time and money invested in the farm, you are entitled to it back.

crackcrack30

Could a partnership be discussed/worked out with his younger brother?

Caroline12

Manoffeeling wrote: »

The accountant is the place to go. Is there a tax partnership number? Were accounts jointly submitted? Have you got a statement with both your parents and your husbands name on it? If you have time and money invested in the farm, you are entitled to it back.

His name is on the farm bank account just for incoming and outgoing payments, also the CO-OP account etc...we have discussed going getting solicitor's advice following this thread, it cant do any harm and he is in agreement.

Manoffeeling

Best of luck. I don't know all of the information, but from what you have described, you have a very strong case. I ended up getting a barrister and threatening to sell all if I wasn't treated fairly.

And remember, any father who shafts a son isn't worth bothering about. It's his fault for causing the mess.

freedominacup

Worst case he has an entiltlement to the repayment of the capital and time he has invested.

mf240

If younger brother is sound dont let him get rode the same way.

Manoffeeling

If the farm is in debt, the father won't be able to afford to throw his weight too much. I was told that I needed €20,000 per day for the High Court. Let the auld lad digest that and see what he does.

maidhc

Manoffeeling wrote: »

If the farm is in debt, the father won't be able to afford to throw his weight too much. I was told that I needed €20,000 per day for the High Court. Let the auld lad digest that and see what he does.

So many issues come into play in this area of law, but in general if a son/daughter/neice/nephew work land for many years to the detriment of the career or other business opportunies and in the express or implied understanding they will get something in return, it is not necessarily open to the parent/uncle/aunt/neighbour to turn around and say tough luck.

Some bedtime reading:
http://www.staredecisishibernia.com/2012/10/18/naylor-v-maher-2012-iehc-408/

Juniorhurler

The only thing I would say in a case like this, looking in from the outside, is that you only have one family and please give sitting down and discussing it one more go. It may be futile but once the solicitor gets involved it is nearly always impossible to repair the relationship. I say this coming from a situation where I have always got on very well with the folks and have no competition for the farm, so I may have a simplistic view. If this is the case feel free to ignore me. Best of luck with whatever ye decide.

Manoffeeling

Juniorhurler wrote: »

The only thing I would say in a case like this, looking in from the outside, is that you only have one family and please give sitting down and discussing it one more go. It may be futile but once the solicitor gets involved it is nearly always impossible to repair the relationship. I say this coming from a situation where I have always got on very well with the folks and have no competition for the farm, so I may have a simplistic view. If this is the case feel free to ignore me. Best of luck with whatever ye decide.

The relationship can't be great if the old man is dis inheriting his son!

No disrespect junior, but you have a simplistic approach and maybe somewhat sheltered. Your own can be the hardest on you.

bob charles

freedominacup wrote: »

Worst case he has an entiltlement to the repayment of the capital and time he has invested.

would the worse case scenario be that he maybe he liable for some of the debts? if he was drawing a fair salary would he be due much, If the debts are large he might have gotten lucky

Manoffeeling

bob charles wrote: »

would the worse case scenario be that he maybe he liable for some of the debts? if he was drawing a fair salary would he be due much, If the debts are large he might have gotten lucky

Plus the fact that the land and stock are probably the guarantee

Juniorhurler

Manoffeeling wrote: »

The relationship can't be great if the old man is dis inheriting his son!

No disrespect junior, but you have a simplistic approach and maybe somewhat sheltered. Your own can be the hardest on you.

I know I have a simplistic view as regards the above situation and certainly take no offence. Sheltered? I am definitely not sheltered, that I can assure you. TBH my situation is very different to most lads in that I have never had any control over family land really. I left it to go and get educated (and have a lot of craic around the world on the way), came back and bought my own land. Now I do share machinery with the father and have built my sheds in the same yard but we are two separate guys working along together. It is probably as close to a farm patnership as you will get without being one officially.

My point is that although I understand that the relationship cannot be great at the moment maybe, just maybe something can be salvaged from the ashes. If the solicitors get involved nothing will be salvaged usually. My Grandfather used to say there are two places you should never stand, behind a kicking horse or in front of a judge. After all, we don't have a justice system in Ireland, we have a legal system, they are two very different things.

Grecco

Would Canada be an option for you? I know of one family that up sticks and went, doing well out there
Many positives such as
Plenty of work
Land is cheap
Looks like they are going to get there Beef into the EU so that would make there land very cheap

Negatives
Can be remote
Average Farms can be very large
Long winter
The turmoil of going

whelan1

Grecco wrote: »

Would Canada be an option for you? I know of one family that up sticks and went, doing well out there
Many positives such as
Plenty of work
Land is cheap
Looks like they are going to get there Beef into the EU so that would make there land very cheap

Negatives
Can be remote
Average Farms can be very large
Long winter
The turmoil of going

i know it would be very hard to do, just get up walk away and let "golden boy" and the father get on with it......they can deal with the debts etc

hugo29

Caroline12 wrote: »

Thank you so much I cannot seem to reply to your pm due to my low post count! But I understand what you mean - the only issue is because the level of debt already accumulated due to the farm been run to the ground by his dad and it does continue and will do for another 10 years, my husband is on this forum so I will ask him to PM you later, thanks again.

did something happen that caused this change, is it the father trying to bribe someone else to plough time and money into the operation with the promise of something out off it at the end, it could be the act of a desperate man, i presume the reason ur husbands names are on the bank account and co op account is your father in laws poor credit

as someone mentioned previously does the younger brother want the farm, is he involved could he and your husband approach your father in law together and lay all cards on the table, I mean as MOF said when push comes to shove and his back is to the wall he might relent but Junior is also right Family is Family and at least deserves one last try (my opinion for what its worth) i like junior had a smooth transition but i seen my mothers family torn apart by the same situation and it aint pretty

Manoffeeling

Don't worry about your parent's family. As I said earlier, they can give you the most hassle. Your priority now is your wife and potential children. It is for them you are doing it. They are your immediate family, not a contrary, backward thinking neanderthal knuckle dragger of an ould lad, who it seems, is a total hindrance and nuisance.

Grecco

whelan1 wrote: »

i know it would be very hard to do, just get up walk away and let "golden boy" and the father get on with it......they can deal with the debts etc

Yes if it was me it would be a real hard choice between staying here looking at Golden boy Ft Father
or moving on with your life

1chippy

There is only one person on here who knows the truth be that from their point of view. Its not really a situation where we should be getting the big stick to beat golden balls, the neanderthol auld lad or the neglected son. Solicitors and court should be your absolute final call. Family is family at the end of the day and i can tell you from experience that its definately worth more than any row. It may be a better solution to just walk away and set about doing you own thing, life is too short to be constantly bitter and hating.

whelan1

1chippy wrote: »

There is only one person on here who knows the truth be that from their point of view. Its not really a situation where we should be getting the big stick to beat golden balls, the neanderthol auld lad or the neglected son. Solicitors and court should be your absolute final call. Family is family at the end of the day and i can tell you from experience that its definately worth more than any row. It may be a better solution to just walk away and set about doing you own thing, life is too short to be constantly bitter and hating.

i think the advice to manoffeeling at the time of his troubles was to go away and sort out the problems, as 1chippy says we are seeing 1 side of the problem... if solicitors etc are going to be involved the less said here the better

Manoffeeling

whelan1 wrote: »

i think the advice to manoffeeling at the time of his troubles was to go away and sort out the problems, as 1chippy says we are seeing 1 side of the problem... if solicitors etc are going to be involved the less said here the better

From my own experience, dialogue failed. I was expected to farm land to pass onto my nephews because my son has Down syndrome and my daughter is a, well, a girl. I got it sorted after it was revealed that my brother forged my signature to move 30 sucklers from my herd into his. As I said earlier, your own can give you the most hassle.

My advice, seek legal advice and decide then. But don't allow yourself to be kicked.

Juniorhurler

Manoffeeling wrote: »

From my own experience, dialogue failed. I was expected to farm land to pass onto my nephews because my son has Down syndrome and my daughter is a, well, a girl. I got it sorted after it was revealed that my brother forged my signature to move 30 sucklers from my herd into his. As I said earlier, your own can give you the most hassle.

My advice, seek legal advice and decide then. But don't allow yourself to be kicked.

I never realised that happened MOF. If anyone in your family needed the farm it was you to ensure continuity of care for your son after your time. Really sorry to hear that happened and can totally understand your advice to the OP.

maidhc

Manoffeeling wrote: »

From my own experience, dialogue failed. I was expected to farm land to pass onto my nephews because my son has Down syndrome and my daughter is a, well, a girl. I got it sorted after it was revealed that my brother forged my signature to move 30 sucklers from my herd into his. As I said earlier, your own can give you the most hassle.

My advice, seek legal advice and decide then. But don't allow yourself to be kicked.

Christ!

When things like that happen the relationships are finished anyway, and there isn't much point in consoling yourself about how family is family.