Outside assistance....

Unregistered.

Does being told time splits and/or position by spectators count as outside assistance? IMO, it does give you and advtage by helping you pace yourself.

sconhome

4 – Coaching can be provided from a static position at the side of the course. We have witnessed some coaches running alongside athletes providing detailed split analysis and tactical advice. This is prohibited, as again it breaches the principle of fair play. Part of the beauty of triathlon is that the athlete will have to make mid-race decisions regarding their tactics.

From: http://www.triathlonireland.com/index.php?id=107&nid=332

Good question!

Ceepo

Unregistered. wrote: »

Does being told time splits and/or position by spectators count as outside assistance? IMO, it does give you and advtage by helping you pace yourself.

To answer your question. Yes & NO is the answer.
If a spectator call out poisition and Or split. And is calling it to everyone then everyone has the same advantage.
This might help however as you know where you stand. But may not be an advantage over the rest of the field.
However. A coach running beside/pacing calling splits etc to only there athlete and one else then this would be seen as outside help. As the only one to benefit is that athlete.
This could get the athlete DQ'd and even the coach could get a slap on the knuckles.

Would need more on a specific incident to give a better answer

Unregistered.

amphkingwest wrote: »

From: http://www.triathlonireland.com/index.php?id=107&nid=332

Good question!

Wow, that amazes me! Would have thought that all atheletes should have the same advantage, therefore only marshalls could give you time-splits etc. For example, a marshall at the turn around point could tell you (or be asked by you) how far behind you are etc. Having a coach/spectator etc doing so is unfair I think as they are not available to all athletes.

Unregistered.

Ceepo wrote: »

Would need more on a specific incident to give a better answer

Say for example you had some friends which were on the bike course and we looking out for you. Counting athletes ahead of you and how far ahead the leader is. They give you, and only you, this information as you pass them.

Ceepo

Unregistered. wrote: »

Say for example you had some friends which were on the bike course and we looking out for you. Counting athletes ahead of you and how far ahead the leader is. They give you, and only you, this information as you pass them.

If they are static and as you pass they say " your in 10th place 90 sec down" this is giving you and maybe only you information. This may give you an advantage but only because you know where you stand. But they are not pacing you or helping in a physical way to change that. If however they were driving in front/ beside and or going to a lot of different point on the course this would be seen as outside interference.

There would be a lot of athletes with family and friends at races and of course they will all try to encourage them, and you will find that what you described will happen a lot.
Less so when the athlete is mid pack or down the field as it might not help them much to say "come on joe your in 220 th place and your only 20 mins behind the leader"

Peterx

Jaysus, now this is really really splitting hairs....

Getting a bottle at the top of a hill, getting a push, having your partner change your punctured wheel whilst off running yourself, they are all good meaty examples of outside assistance.

Being told a time split.....pfft!

Fazz

That would be impossible to police as marshals or officials can't be everywhere.

Nothing wrong with a bit of splits or position shouting as long as it's not in form of a coach alongside continuous which could be deemed coaching or pacing.

Sure look at any pro race - regular splits for top bunch and time differentials provided by officials on motorbikes etc.

Can be both a good and bad thing so not really a help bar certain circumstances.

There's many similar variables that could be argued also:
- lead kayak for swim often the case and assists both sighting as well as possible draft?
- lead motorbike assists in flagging traffic and clearing course to some effect
- 2nd place/3rd place probably get the most feedback from marshals regarding splits etc

all these just part of racing imo.

No biggie.

NorthernRaider

I'd imagine leading the bike leg behind the lead vehicle creates quite a draft!?

Fazz, did you notice much of a difference in your Tri an Mhi experience?

Unregistered.

Fazz wrote: »

That would be impossible to police as marshals or officials can't be everywhere.

Nothing wrong with a bit of splits or position shouting as long as it's not in form of a coach alongside continuous which could be deemed coaching or pacing.

In ITU they also allow drafting in some races. I don't think it is fair to compare with pro races as their are different rules. Sticking to TI races for this topic.

Fazz wrote: »

There's many similar variables that could be argued also:
- lead kayak for swim often the case and assists both sighting as well as possible draft?
- lead motorbike assists in flagging traffic and clearing course to some effect
- 2nd place/3rd place probably get the most feedback from marshals regarding splits etc

all these just part of racing imo.

These points are all fine as they are available to all athletes and come from marshalls. I'm strictly refering to non-marshalls or officials.

Unregistered.

Ceepo wrote: »

If they are static and as you pass they say " your in 10th place 90 sec down" this is giving you and maybe only you information. This may give you an advantage but only because you know where you stand.

It gives you an advantage, and this is my point.

Fazz

NorthernRaider wrote: »

I'd imagine leading the bike leg behind the lead vehicle creates quite a draft!?

Fazz, did you notice much of a difference in your Tri an Mhi experience?

It would alright but I had no such luck there.
the bike marshals were keeping a big gap ahead of me, anytime I closed they were checking their mirrors and speeding ahead to ensure no draft.

Im pretty sure I remember reading it somewhere that drafting off such vehicles is also against the rules anyway. But to be honest the owness has to be on the motorbikes in my opinion as not like we can pass them and sure as hell wouldn't be backing off to get out of their draft neither!


Curiously though, there were 2 motorbikes leading the way which I remember thinking what's going on lads why don't one of ye turn around and check for drafting?
And near the end a car was up ahead with flashing lights as well. Seemed a tad excessive but I can't say I didn't enjoy it.

Unfortunately none of them had white boards with time splits back to the chasers to show me so I got no splits there :-)

Fazz

It does not count as outside assistance.

You feel it gives an advantage, and yes it may do but as I pointed out so may a lead kayak, lead motorbike for traffic or indeed running in 2nd/3rd place which receive the majority of splits updates from officials.


Some could be changed such as lead kayak, some cannot be such as spectators giving a few updates to athletes they may or may not even know.

These are all just part of racing.
Enjoy them all!

mloc123

Over the years I have seen a lot of outside assistance in races, I think shouting splits is low down on the list of ones to tackle first.

Water bottles being handed to and from people is my pet hate. I did give my last gel to somebody in Antwerp last year, he looked like he needed it.

Unregistered.

Fazz wrote: »

You feel it gives an advantage, and yes it may do but as I pointed out so may a lead kayak, lead motorbike for traffic or indeed running in 2nd/3rd place which receive the majority of splits updates from officials.

I don't mean to sour the tone, but are you actually ignoring what I've said about marshalls and officials? They are fine IMO as they don't give an advantage to one individual only. I'm talking about when there is an advantage to one (or several, perhaps) athlete that is not there for other athletes as well!

Unregistered.

mloc123 wrote: »

Over the years I have seen a lot of outside assistance in races, I think shouting splits is low down on the list of ones to tackle first.

I'm not even asking if it's a big problem, just wondering what the rule is with giving one competitor an advantage over another!

I really hate that "Ah sure everyone does it" and "there are bigger problems" attitude. Gets in the way of proper debate.

Fazz

Unregistered. wrote: »

I don't mean to sour the tone, but are you actually ignoring what I've said about marshalls and officials? They are fine IMO as they don't give an advantage to one individual only. I'm talking about when there is an advantage to one (or several, perhaps) athlete that is not there for other athletes as well!

What difference does it make whether its marshals or spectators?

You suggest you only have an issue with spectators for some reason but your point is regarding unfair advantage so that doesnt make sense.

Time splits primarily occur for the leaders as part of racing.
Incidental splits/position updates from spectators to others are not exactly advantageous.

One would argue information shouldn't provide any advantage at all.
Its not going to make you race better nor faster.
If a number being called out improves your speed then so should a shout of support or encouragement.

Perhaps all shouting from spectators should be banned?

But its ok if its from officials....?

Does this all taste like sour grapes from a personal experience?
get pipped after sneaking up on someone near finish line?

Really is a mute point not worthy of debate imo so I'll bow out now.

Unregistered.

Fazz wrote: »

What difference does it make whether its marshals or spectators?

You suggest you only have an issue with spectators for some reason but your point is regarding unfair advantage so that doesnt make sense.

Time splits primarily occur for the leaders as part of racing.
Incidental splits/position updates from spectators to others are not exactly advantageous.

One would argue information shouldn't provide any advantage at all.
Its not going to make you race better nor faster.
If a number being called out improves your speed then so should a shout of support or encouragement.

Perhaps all shouting from spectators should be banned?

But its ok if its from officials....?

Does this all taste like sour grapes from a personal experience?
get pipped after sneaking up on someone near finish line?

Really is a mute point not worthy of debate imo so I'll bow out now.

Marshalls and officials are neutral and *everyone* can make use of them. That's the difference. No advantage if one athlete asks a marshall for a time split as every other athlete could do the same.

That is very different to having someone on the sideline who is keeping time-splits for one individual athlete.

Krusty_Clown

Unregistered. wrote: »

Marshalls and officials are neutral and *everyone* can make use of them. That's the difference. No advantage if one athlete asks a marshall for a time split as every other athlete could do the same.

That is very different to having someone on the sideline who is keeping time-splits for one individual athlete.

Why don't you just spit out out, instead of tip-toeing around your grinding axe?

Unregistered.

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Why don't you just spit out out, instead of tip-toeing around your grinding axe?

I was genuinely just curious if getting pace time and/or position from a friend during the race was considered outside assistance! It does give you an unfair advantage when other athletes don't have the same support.

peter kern

Unregistered. wrote: »

I was genuinely just curious if getting pace time and/or position from a friend during the race was considered outside assistance! It does give you an unfair advantage when other athletes don't have the same support.

Do you consider power meter and hr monitors outside assistence ? Or is that ok to help pacing which in theory is much more important than splits.

longshank

peter kern wrote: »

Do you consider power meter and hr monitors outside assistence ? Or is that ok to help pacing which in theory is much more important than splits.

or fancy wetsuit, or aero helmet or aero bike or zipp wheels etc etc (or having a coach!)....what makes you think it is a level playing field??

peter kern

longshank wrote: »

or fancy wetsuit, or aero helmet or aero bike or zipp wheels etc etc (or having a coach!)....what makes you think it is a level playing field??

The real truth is the rules dont make too much sense as they lack consitency consitency.
TO be clear i am not am not saying they are not good, I am saying their are not consitent enough.

Wetusits are allowed neopren socks are not ( which would be a great way to make swimming safer at cold temperatures)

Aero gear is allowed power meter and hr is allowed yet we try to sell the sport you against yourself and say the beauty of the sport is that atheltes have to make their own decisions during the race.
Am I the only one to smile about this ?

At Itu races we have coaching teams standing a various locations onthe course communicating via radio and mobile phones at the same time we talk aobut outside assitence in a thread.

Crossing a white line going into transition which might give a 1 sec advantage gets penalty, drafting which is much harder to monitor gets you pretty much a free pass.
I understand federations need to be seen to enforce the rules. And i agree that they have to enforce the crossing of a continious white line, on open roads ,but if they cant catch drafter why give somebody a penalty when they cross the transition line by 10 cm.
Its a bit like letting Apple et all get away with paying hardly any coorparation tax . But the little man in the street gets a penalty for not paying 200 euro property tax.

One would think the rules could be a bit better thought out to make them more consitent.
So if health of athletes is really paramount let them wear neopren socks and glove (not the frog ones) in cold water.

If safty is paramount let them get help if they pucture so they dont get cold ( they already lose time with having a puncture)

If it was a sport you against yourself than you have to be consitent either stop all gadgets or allow all. but dont say you can use a power meter and aero gear but x y z is not allowed because that would be outside assitance.
My 2 cent
ps I am totally not against using Hr monitors or power meter in racing.
as I dodnt see triathlon as the race against yourself . it has become a strategic sport closer to cycling than when 13 people meet for the first time 1978 in hawaii .

Unregistered.

peter kern wrote: »

Do you consider power meter and hr monitors outside assistence ? Or is that ok to help pacing which in theory is much more important than splits.

I understand what you are saying but you can't say that power meters give you more of an advantage, therefore there is nothing wrong with being given time splits!

I'm not arguing that it's going to win you a race, and the amount of benefit it gives you is debateable. It's not about what I consider as outside assistance, I'm just wondering about the spirit of the rules. Power meters etc would be banned outright if they were considered as outside assistance, so that IMO is a moot point.

sconhome

In a race having someone provide you with information which they will not provide to other competitors is in the letter of the law 'outside assistance' as it's restricted to you and you alone.

Information is a vague area though. As Peter alluded, you also get information from HRM, GPS, PM's etc. It's what you do with that information which would decide whether you benefit from it or not.

I believe in the spirit of racing the 'outside assistance' technically is someone, pushing you up a hill, providing a draft, giving you food etc. But it really does become pedantic and splitting hairs. Is taking jellies from spectators outside assistance? Technically no. But if the spectators were my kids, possibly yes it is outside assistance given to me specifically ( I tell them not to give sweets to strangers :P )

Impossible area to police IMO and not something I'd worry about in the middle of the pack.

longshank

Unregistered. wrote: »

I understand what you are saying but you can't say that power meters give you more of an advantage, therefore there is nothing wrong with being given time splits!

I'm not arguing that it's going to win you a race, and the amount of benefit it gives you is debateable. It's not about what I consider as outside assistance, I'm just wondering about the spirit of the rules. Power meters etc would be banned outright if they were considered as outside assistance, so that IMO is a moot point.

if your wondering about the spirit of the rules then i would say information from whatever source hrm or coach is inside the rules but physical intervention is not

miller82

slightly OT, but i presume in IM races, a spectator passing you a gel/food or something is a no no ???
can you throw someone a hat even - if its bothering you sort of thing

tunney

miller82 wrote: »

slightly OT, but i presume in IM races, a spectator passing you a gel/food or something is a no no ???
can you throw someone a hat even - if its bothering you sort of thing

No - DQ for taking anything. That being said like drafting in Irish races its everywhere.

longshank

tunney wrote: »

No - DQ for taking anything. That being said like drafting in Irish races its everywhere.

some IM races allow outside assistance in specific zones!

Oryx

IM 70.3 UK will have bike mechanics on the course to help competitors with any bike issues, which is something I haven't heard of before.

Edit:From the ITU rules:

2.2. Outside assistance:
a.) The assistance provided by event personnel or Technical Officials is allowed but is
limited to drinks, nutrition, mechanical and medical assistance, upon the approval of
the Technical Delegate or Race Referee. Athletes competing in the same race may
assist each other with incidental items such as nutrition and drinks after a water
station and pumps, tubular tires, inner tubes and puncture repair kits.
b.) Athletes may not provide any item of equipment to an athlete competing in the
same race which results in the donor athlete being unable to continue with their own
race. This includes but is not restricted to shoes, complete bicycle, frame, wheels and
helmet. The penalty for this will be disqualification of both athletes.

tunney

Oryx wrote: »

IM 70.3 UK will have bike mechanics on the course to help competitors with any bike issues, which is something I haven't heard of before.

It's in most (proper races). In Roth for example they had some quad bikes loaded with spare wheels and just swapped them out for punctures (you got your wheel back at the end), like road racing neutral mechanics.

Green&Red

What about having a watch & HRM while racing, its spewing out important info on how close to the red or into it you are.
I would consider someone who had a coach there to give splits as better prepared.It is giving no physical advantage only giving information which is free for anyone to have and theres the difference. One is interferring in the race directlu

miller82

tunney wrote: »

It's in most (proper races). In Roth for example they had some quad bikes loaded with spare wheels and just swapped them out for punctures (you got your wheel back at the end), like road racing neutral mechanics.

thats awesome

mloc123

tunney wrote: »

It's in most (proper races). In Roth for example they had some quad bikes loaded with spare wheels and just swapped them out for punctures (you got your wheel back at the end), like road racing neutral mechanics.

Austria 70.3 had set locations with the same... spare wheels, nice ones too.

peter kern

Oryx wrote: »

IM 70.3 UK will have bike mechanics on the course to help competitors with any bike issues, which is something I haven't heard of before.

Edit:From the ITU rules:

good luck waiting ;-) i rember catriona morrison had to wait close to 1 hour when her chain snaped at Im lanzarotte and she was the leading pro in the race .
so not really sure how we could say a service like that is available for everybody. if their is 2 bike mechanics availabel. Its great that they out their but it does not make it available for everybody statistically speaking. (1500 athletes 2 mechanics so is a cotnaradiciton to the rule )
so why not allow outside assitence to increase the chance that people get help ?
They want to provide it but the rescouces are not available.


Same thing why should you not be able to give water to an athelte that struggles in the heat and could get a stroke ( very bad publicity for triathlon when it happens) . or give a pair of gloves to one that is close to hypothermia.
This could help to make the spot saver which should be the ultimate goal of the sport.

Unless we say athetes need to carry all their food drinks with them and their will be no aid stations a totalt time trial start starting from the swim ( not happinging just in case you think thats a great idea ) I cant see why outside assitance is bad.

Oryx

peter kern wrote: »

good luck waiting ;-)

Not something I would ever hold my breath for. Ill have a toolkit.

Same thing why should you not be able to give water to an athelte

In IMAT people around the town were handing out water and fruit, and even beer, to competitors. By all accounts a few hundred should have been DQd for taking it then.

Unless we say athetes need to carry all their food drinks with them and their will be no aid stations a total time trial start starting from the swim ( not happinging just in case you think thats a great idea ) I cant see why outside assitance is bad.

Because you'll get those who overuse the privilege and ruin it for everyone. The organisers clearly turn a blind eye to AG race fodder getting handed drinks etc, but its still officially against the rules, because it prevents overt help from an organised crew.

Unregistered.

Oryx wrote: »

Because you'll get those who overuse the privilege and ruin it for everyone. The organisers clearly turn a blind eye to AG race fodder getting handed drinks etc, but its still officially against the rules, because it prevents overt help from an organised crew.

It's also there to protect the athletes I would have thought. Somebody hands you a bottle - you have no idea what could be in it!

Oryx

Unregistered. wrote: »

It's also there to protect the athletes I would have thought. Somebody hands you a bottle - you have no idea what could be in it!

True.

*shudder*

tunney

Unregistered. wrote: »

It's also there to protect the athletes I would have thought. Somebody hands you a bottle - you have no idea what could be in it!

Carrick on Suir tri a good few years back.

Young lads handing out cups of water..... sourced from the river directly.

peter kern

Unregistered. wrote: »

It's also there to protect the athletes I would have thought. Somebody hands you a bottle - you have no idea what could be in it!

I would have thought we dont even have an idea what could be in it if we buy a burger in the supermarket ;-)

sconhome

peter kern wrote: »

I would have thought we dont even have an idea what could be in it if we buy a burger in the supermarket ;-)

Everyone knows what's in it, its just the label that's wrong :P

Ceepo

tunney wrote: »

Carrick on Suir tri a good few years back.

Young lads handing out cups of water..... sourced from the river directly.

Bull$hit utter Bull$hit.

Don't know where you got your info from or from whom.
But that never happened

longshank

tunney wrote: »

Carrick on Suir tri a good few years back.

Young lads handing out cups of water..... sourced from the river directly.

hope it wasnt from anywhere near the swim start!!!!

Mr Tango

I experienced this in Lanzarote last week. No Coke at the aid stations and the amount of athletes getting Coke from spectators (who I assume they knew) was crazy.

Did I mind - not really, I was just jealous my wife was on the wrong side of the road and I could get her to go and get me some!!

At the same time can we just pick and choose some of the rules?

If I was at the top end of the field in an Irish race and someone was doing this I would not be happy. At Tri An Mhi there was a guy in front of me in the run - think I was about 5th or 6th at the time and he had two lads cycling beside him effectively pacing him and feeding him. they would disappear and come back. I tried to ignore but after the third time I called the guy on the bike over and explained the rules. In fairness it was ignorance and they didn't do it again - he did offer me some food though! As soon as they stopped I passed the guy and never seen him again so there is an impact.

griffin100

tunney wrote: »

Carrick on Suir tri a good few years back.

Young lads handing out cups of water..... sourced from the river directly.

Valentia Tri in 2010...........big barrel of water at the top of the hill at the run turnaround.......about 20 cups in total.........lads collecting discarded cups to reuse........multiple reuse of cups by many athletes.......it was so hot I don't think anyone cared........I didn't

longshank

Ironman Switzerland-
"Receiving food or drinks from personal supporters is only allowed at two aid station on the bike course and at three aid stations on the run course. At the following stations personal supporters are allowed to hand you food. Positions are well marked and indicated."

peter kern

longshank wrote: »

Ironman Switzerland-
"Receiving food or drinks from personal supporters is only allowed at two aid station on the bike course and at three aid stations on the run course. At the following stations personal supporters are allowed to hand you food. Positions are well marked and indicated."

that makes sense on the bike for saftey reasons
but for the run why not, just as well allow it , if you already water it down at certain points. and again we could argue for safty reasons its safer if atheltes can use the food they are used too

tunney

peter kern wrote: »

that makes sense on the bike for saftey reasons
but for the run why not, just as well allow it , if you already water it down at certain points. and again we could argue for safty reasons its safer if atheltes can use the food they are used too

Special needs in any IM is usually off the track. There is "a slip road" and those that want to use special needs (either bags or supports) are led away from the main crowd. If its at any point you will have people abruptly changing lines quickly and cutting across other athletes unexpectedly.