Renewable/Heating System (rant?)

Brave Harvey

Currently looking at a heatpump air source, with ufh and room stats, mhrv unit and plumbing costs for all this come to well over 20 grand.

What the hell is it all about, Is the government trying to push people to buy up the old building stock by forcing people to meet overly expensive demands to build a new house by trying to meet the part L?

Should a very well insulated house with good airtightness require such an expensive heating system? Should not a stove, back boiler and rads with a back up immersion be adequate with controlled ventilation? Would all this not meet the Part L for energy? Why really the need for a HP or Solar? Is it only a measure to meet with this Part L? Even if you bring your Heating demand to a very low level, will you still have to comply with this Part L, if so people are being codded by federations pushing these systems..

I obviously know you have to comply but i want to raise the point over the frustration i have. Passive house have proved that the most efficient way to build is by taking a scientific holistic approach, putting emphasis on material types, modeling heat gains, promoting compact design etc, all to bring down each building projects heat demand below 15kwh/msqa. Now by doing so you will provide sound buildings but then there is the irish building regulations to contend with, which employ half the scientific approach and half a renewable approach which i believe is bringing the cost of a new build twice as much as a passive house! I say that because if you build a passive house you will save on your heating bills, while building to irish regs, you will buy an expensive heating system with a lot of ins and outs, you still have holes in your wall and less well insulated and you will still be paying more for heating in the long run.

There should be an exemption from the government for someone who decides to build to a passive house standard, giving more incentive to a building system that works better, simple as.

MOTM

This didn't start in Ireland.

http://www.eceee.org/buildings/EPBD_Recast/EPBD_recast_19May2010.pdf defines the route that building regulations are taking:

"The nearly zero or very low amount of energy required should be covered to a very significant extent by energy from renewable sources, including energy from renewable sources produced on-site or nearby;"

fclauson

Brave Harvey wrote: »

...
There should be an exemption from the government for someone who decides to build to a passive house standard, giving more incentive to a building system that works better, simple as.

Part L 2011 is very close to passive so why should they exempt you

sydthebeat

Brave Harvey wrote: »

There should be an exemption from the government for someone who decides to build to a passive house standard, giving more incentive to a building system that works better, simple as.

its practically impossible to build build passive without renewables.

Your renewable system doesnt have to cost 20 grand. The choices you make
determine the cost.

The cheapest way to meet the renewable requirement is to build small and use a wood based stove system.

but, and heres the kicker, using renewables to provide part of your energy requirements ACTUALLY SAVES YOU MONEY, if done correctly.

Experienced practioneers can advise on the best way to meet 2011 regulations in the DEAP assessment.
without being judgemental, but reading your posts it seems you havent explored other alternatives.
Ground source heat pumps have a very high initial cost. In my opinion, too high in the majority of cases.

Brave Harvey

Part L 2011 is very close to passive so why should they exempt you

They should exempt you because i find passive house to be right and part L to be misleading, so when you attempt to build right there are things in part L which are unnecessary and will inflate you building's expenses, in the short and long term.

Brave Harvey

but, and heres the kicker, using renewables to provide part of your energy requirements ACTUALLY SAVES YOU MONEY, if done correctly.

Have to have evidence for this, is it true that thermal tubes are only 50% efficient even when placed in their optimum position on site? My point is that renewables should remain an option but the construction in Ireland needs to drastically change to incorporate better building practices and building control to ensure that a house when built requires a low heat demand. This must be the objective. And its only by having such low energy building techniques and proper availability of the right materials at hand from local suppliers, and then the price will finally go down on new builds and retrofit.

sydthebeat

Brave Harvey wrote: »

Have to have evidence for this, is it true that thermal tubes are only 50% efficient even when placed in their optimum position on site? My point is that renewables should remain an option but the construction in Ireland needs to drastically change to incorporate better building practices and building control to ensure that a house when built requires a low heat demand. This must be the objective. And its only by having such low energy building techniques and proper availability of the right materials at hand from local suppliers, and then the price will finally go down on new builds and retrofit.

hense we have the one of the most updated energy regulations in europe.
amendments to 1997 regs in:
2002
2005
2008
2011

The regulation is there.................
the education, practises, and policing are slowly catching up.

sydthebeat

Brave Harvey wrote: »

Have to have evidence for this, is it true that thermal tubes are only 50% efficient even when placed in their optimum position on site? .

its also true that your local power station is only 30% efficient, no matter what position its located at.

there are MANY threads available here about pay back periods, theres tons of research already carried out about the benefits of renewable energies.

At the end of the day, you, as a professional, have to arm yourself with as much information as you can and drawn your opinion from that information.

Brave Harvey

The regulation is there.................
the education, practises, and policing are slowly catching up.

This is all well and good, but what the government is not realising or ignoring is how much it costs to build these days! Thats all i'm saying.

Yes and I take your point about arming yourself with as much information as possible but its very hard to do that, trying to stay in the game long enough to learn enough, work not enough for a lot of people in construction, you get forced to take a 9 to 5 job in a factory or some other work to pay your mortgage and your screwed. You come back and there is regulations to beat the band. Fees into the thousands to become a ber consultant.

I'll admit this is a rant, an anger at this country's failing governments over the last decade, that didn't have foresight. Everything seems to be a reactive measure. People are being squeezed beyond their limits financially in this country and forced to emmigrate. As far as CO2 emmissions go, Ireland should be more concerned about young educated people emmissions.

Ireland's carbon footprint is a drop in the ocean towards guzzlers like america and kuwait. This country needs its own regulations which meets peoples resources.

sinnerboy

The economic backdrop will ALWAYS provide an excuse for ducking regulations.

Boomtime " I don't want to get ripped off" .
Recession " I don't have the money"

This reflects a flexible mindset , totally adjustable to react to the current economic climate. And always wrong.

Peel your onion somewhere else.

exaisle

Peel your onion somewhere else.

+1

If I'd said that I might have got banned... :-)

Brave Harvey

Ah no to be honest I find all the new changes quite interesting and sciency which I like. I just found myself in the hillarious position as a person with little income of my own trying to recommend to people who are not well off the benefits of Mhrv and such. But I admit I am quite ignorant to a lot of things, mostly renewable and my knowledge is slowly forming... So sorry but opinions make forums and generate interest if they catch a current vibe among people. I'll accept all the slack if my opinion is poor.

rockabaloo

Brave Harvey wrote: »

Ah no to be honest I find all the new changes quite interesting and sciency which I like. I just found myself in the hillarious position as a person with little income of my own trying to recommend to people who are not well off the benefits of Mhrv and such. But I admit I am quite ignorant to a lot of things, mostly renewable and my knowledge is slowly forming... So sorry but opinions make forums and generate interest if they catch a current vibe among people. I'll accept all the slack if my opinion is poor.

I think you're making a fair point. I agree, surely a forum is the best place to peel an onion such as this one.

sinnerboy

rockabaloo wrote: »

I think you're making a fair point. I agree, surely a forum is the best place to peel an onion such as this one.

Quite. Peel away those who wish to .

Brave Harvey

I see the construction going through its most enlightening phase and it is painful sometimes to change. However it is also the most interesting time in that the combination of science and construction to produce buildings that will require minimal heating requires a much more educated approach and what are we if we're not learning. Coming to the most economical approach to low energy requires a prior understanding and respect for low energy building from people looking to build which i find on the most still come from a celtic tiger era way of thinking, and in the end you will find it quite expensive detailing and designing an insulation layer to bungalow bliss type houses, which were cost effective in their time as opposed to specially architecturally designed homes and so had their place. This is the area i am finding most difficult of late. My post #9 was driven by my opposition to property tax and the government in general...