Unhappy with architect

Doctormom

I am hoping someone can advise me please. We recently bought a new house (Dec 2012) and have been doing some extension / renovation work. We engaged an architect in Jan 2013 for planning and project management. We went with someone recommended by a colleague of mine.

We were happy at first, but have been increasingly dissatisfied over the past 6 weeks or so. The work is in two main parts, part one planning exempt (single storey extension to rear 28 sqm), and part 2 requires PP (build over garage). He was so slow getting the plans for part 2 completed, that we proceeded with part 1 of work (on his advice) about 5 weeks ago, and PP application for part 2 has since gone in. We now have issues with this PP, i.e. observations from neighbours that, in hindsight, should have been anticipated by an experienced architect.

Of course, there are multiple other things he has done to annoy us, but mostly of a small scale - like never answering phone calls from our numbers, not remembering (?ignoring) instructions from us etc.

However, the FINAL STRAW came today. He advised us early on that an apex roof would be best on the extension to allow velux windows for ample light. He never went through other options or the pros and cons of different roof options with us. Moreover, he never told us that this design would severely obstruct the views from our rear upstairs bedrooms. On the plans, from the side, it looked like there would be some window obstruction, but the drawing of the rear of the house showed the roof line of the extension only going up about one quarter / one third of the bedroom windows, so we thought the view would be ok. And of course we never imagined an architect would plan to obstruct windows! Well the roof is now in place, and I went to look at it today. From the end of the garden, about three quarters of the rear upstairs windows are obstructed by the roof, clearly different from the drawing we were given. From the inside, at least half the rear upstairs windows are obstructed by the roof. Looking out these windows, all we can see are roof tiles, and the sky and tree tops. We can't see any of our garden, not even the rear of the garden, and none of the neighbours' gardens! It is appalling and incredible that an architect would design this. I can't understand how he would not have foreseen this problem, and why he did not inform us of it. If we knew this would be the "view", we would have told him to come up with another roof plan.

We cannot live with this roof, and will have to ask him to have it changed. However, we don't feel that we should bear the whole cost, or any of the cots to be honest, as we feel this is an error on his behalf. The current roof cost about 15000, so revising will be at least 10000 I guess. Do we have any standing here? Can anyone advise how we should tackle the issue re who pays what for revising the roof?

I just want advice on things to say, phrases to use. I am very upset about this and thanks in advance for any help / advice.

dudara

@Doctormom Can you please edit your post to include some paragraphs. It would help other posters read it, and thus offer advice.

dudara

Doctormom

Added paragraphs, thanks!

dazed+confused

Just because you are paying for someone's services does not mean they are answerable to you 24/7. Are your phonecalls ever returned?

Surely the plans showed dimensions, did you not measure the finished roof height before proceeding? Of course the roof is going to obstruct more of the window when you're standing in your garden than it did on the plans. You have to remember that you are looking up at it and if you were looking at it from the same aspect as the plans (which would involve floating 10 feet off the ground) the it would obstruct the same amount of the window.

If the builder did not stick to the plans then you would have a case for redress, but you were shown a plan (which you chose to go ahead with) and now you're complaining about the results!

Why would you want to be able to see into you neighbours' gardens?

Doctormom

Fair point. The project is still ongoing, the roof has just been added. I am confused that an architect would design plans that would severely obstruct a window view and not advise us of that. We were only told the pros of this roof design, none of the cons, and nothing about alternative designs. I feel we were not given adequate information to make an informed decision.
I don't want to see into my neighbours gardens! I am just trying to make the point that no ground at all can be seen from the windows, not even far into the distance.

Were you shown actual plans or inaccurate 'artists impressions'?

All roofs/extensions obstruct the views. The best from that perspective would be a totally flat roof but that will have other issues.

Doctormom

Thanks. I believe they were plans we were shown, as they look like plans, were called plans, and have a scale 1:50 in the bottom left corner. They were lacking in a lot of dimensions details, but include that the roof slope was to be 34 degrees. However, the height of the roof and the amount of obstructed window (say height from sill) were not on the drawings. I know now I should have asked.
I know all roof extensions block some view, but this really is to the extreme. Honestly, I am not being hysterical. I would never buy a house like this, and I expect it would be very difficult to sell and seriously devalued as is now. Not planning on selling, but you never know what the future holds.
I will try to post pictures later.

Doctormom

Dazed + confused,
I should point out that I know the architect is not expected to be contactable 24/7. But ours virtually never answers his phone during office hours. Recently my husband tried to call him about a problem from his mobile a few times, and when got no answer, called from a landline. The architect answered a number he did not recognise immediately! We have only managed to talk to him a few times on the phone.
He responds to emails within 24 hrs - which is very reasonable - but he often doesn't read the email properly or misinterprets it, so his replies don't make sense. Phone or in person is better for two way dialogue.
It is easy to get a face to face meeting with him (so he can charge for travel?), but he seems rushed when he meets us. And we both work, so regular meetings are difficult for us.
It is his rushed attitude that has got us where we are. If he gave us more time up front and went through the implications of his design, we wouldn't be in this mess.

Clauric

Op, I'm sorry to hear about your difficulties with your architect. From having worked as a QS and being a structural engineer (in a past work life), there are a number of things you need to do.

Firstly, you need to ensue that your architect is, in fact, a registered architect. From past experience, "architects" who forget dimensions are not architects, but often architectural technicians, who are not qualified or insured to do the work. Easiest way to find out its to ring the RIAI and ask. It is also a criminal offence to portray yourself as an architect if you are not one.

Secondly, assuming that he is qualified, you need to ensure that the builder has built what the architect has drawn. If there is a scale on the drawings, use it to check the actual dimensions. I've often seen drawings where the numbers that were omitted were more relevant than the ones that were included. You also need to ensure that the drawings the builder was given are the same as the drawings you were given. I would also go out and measure the actual physical dimensions. Check heights, angles, etc. and compare to the drawings to ensure it was actually built according to the drawings (i've often seen tradesmen build differently from what has been called for, and then claim it was according to the drawings).

Thirdly, if there is a discrepancy between the drawings (version numbers, dimensions, etc.) you need to sort out which one you were shown. Unless you agreed changes to them, and were informed about the changes being completed, only the drawings you approved should be used for building.

If there is work to be done to repair the roof, to put it back to the correct shape/dimensions, then it needs to be sorted out ASAP. How it get sorted out will depend on the exact nature of the contractual relationship between you, the architect and the builder (i.e. who hired who).

On a final point, I think the architect may have misinformed you regarding the exemption requirements. As you are planning, at the time of building an exempt extension, an extension that requires planning permission, the council will often view this exempt extension, as being part of the overall extension. This will mean that they may come back and require you to apply for retention, which can be very costly. You mentioned that the extension to the back is about 28m2. However, most county councils require that there be abot 40m2 of garden/back yard also available. Without this second requirement, the extension would not qualify as exempt either.

If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to pm new.

(apologies for any spelling mistakes, I'm sending this from my phone)

dazed+confused

Doctormom wrote: »

Dazed + confused,
I should point out that I know the architect is not expected to be contactable 24/7. But ours virtually never answers his phone during office hours. Recently my husband tried to call him about a problem from his mobile a few times, and when got no answer, called from a landline. The architect answered a number he did not recognise immediately! We have only managed to talk to him a few times on the phone.
He responds to emails within 24 hrs - which is very reasonable - but he often doesn't read the email properly or misinterprets it, so his replies don't make sense. Phone or in person is better for two way dialogue.
It is easy to get a face to face meeting with him (so he can charge for travel?), but he seems rushed when he meets us. And we both work, so regular meetings are difficult for us.
It is his rushed attitude that has got us where we are. If he gave us more time up front and went through the implications of his design, we wouldn't be in this mess.

Ok, that level of avoidance does sound unreasonable. From reading your posts your technical knowledge seems limited i.e. the difference between artist's impressions and plans. I know you'll say this is why you hired an architect, but unfortunately to build something exactly the way you want it, you really do need to have a lot of understanding of the building trade. Otherwise you will end up with a combination of what your achitect and builder wants rather than what you want.

Doctormom

dazed+confused wrote: »

Ok, that level of avoidance does sound unreasonable. From reading your posts your technical knowledge seems limited i.e. the difference between artist's impressions and plans. I know you'll say this is why you hired an architect, but unfortunately to build something exactly the way you want it, you really do need to have a lot of understanding of the building trade. Otherwise you will end up with a combination of what your achitect and builder wants rather than what you want.

I admit my technical knowledge is poor! The builder got the same drawings we did, so I really think they are plans.

Doctormom

Clauric wrote: »

Op, I'm sorry to hear about your difficulties with your architect. From having worked as a QS and being a structural engineer (in a past work life), there are a number of things you need to do.

Firstly, you need to ensue that your architect is, in fact, a registered architect. From past experience, "architects" who forget dimensions are not architects, but often architectural technicians, who are not qualified or insured to do the work. Easiest way to find out its to ring the RIAI and ask. It is also a criminal offence to portray yourself as an architect if you are not one.

Secondly, assuming that he is qualified, you need to ensure that the builder has built what the architect has drawn. If there is a scale on the drawings, use it to check the actual dimensions. I've often seen drawings where the numbers that were omitted were more relevant than the ones that were included. You also need to ensure that the drawings the builder was given are the same as the drawings you were given. I would also go out and measure the actual physical dimensions. Check heights, angles, etc. and compare to the drawings to ensure it was actually built according to the drawings (i've often seen tradesmen build differently from what has been called for, and then claim it was according to the drawings).

Thirdly, if there is a discrepancy between the drawings (version numbers, dimensions, etc.) you need to sort out which one you were shown. Unless you agreed changes to them, and were informed about the changes being completed, only the drawings you approved should be used for building.

If there is work to be done to repair the roof, to put it back to the correct shape/dimensions, then it needs to be sorted out ASAP. How it get sorted out will depend on the exact nature of the contractual relationship between you, the architect and the builder (i.e. who hired who).

On a final point, I think the architect may have misinformed you regarding the exemption requirements. As you are planning, at the time of building an exempt extension, an extension that requires planning permission, the council will often view this exempt extension, as being part of the overall extension. This will mean that they may come back and require you to apply for retention, which can be very costly. You mentioned that the extension to the back is about 28m2. However, most county councils require that there be abot 40m2 of garden/back yard also available. Without this second requirement, the extension would not qualify as exempt either.

If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to pm new.

(apologies for any spelling mistakes, I'm sending this from my phone)

Thanks a lot.

He is definitely an architect, and I checked with RIAI before engaging him.

I think the builder got it right, as the roof has steel beams designed by an engineer on our architect's instruction, and these beams are all in the right place and fitting together well.

I think the building is done per plans, but the plans are poor design, the drawing of the rear of house was misleading, and our architect failed to go through the plans properly with us and advise us of such implications. Unless he did not foresee the window obstruction issue??? But we signed off on the plans...

I have been concerned about whether it is right to proceed with "exempt" work pending PP for the rest of the work, but the architect has repeatedly reassured me it's ok. I am beginning to doubt a lot of what he says...

sydthebeat

Perhaps this issue wouldn't have arose if you had actually used an architectural technician, who is trained and qualified to produce technical drawings.... And not an riai architect that you have actually found to be in capable of describing his/her design.

Saying an architectural technician is not qualified or allowed to do this work is plainly wrong.

Doctormom

sydthebeat wrote: »

Perhaps this issue wouldn't have arose if you had actually used an architectural technician, who is trained and qualified to produce technical drawings.... And not an riai architect that you have actually found to be in capable of describing his/her design.

Saying an architectural technician is not qualified or allowed to do this work is plainly wrong.

Sydthebeat,
Thanks. I am certainly regretting my choice!

muffler

Clauric wrote: »

but often architectural technicians, who are not qualified or insured to do the work.

Clauric wrote: »

However, most county councils require that there be abot 40m2 of garden/back yard also available. Without this second requirement, the extension would not qualify as exempt either.

Clauric wrote: »

please don't hesitate to pm new.

Based on the mis-information in the comments highlighted above I wouldnt recommend anyone PM you.

Johnny Volume

dazed+confused wrote: »

Ok, that level of avoidance does sound unreasonable. From reading your posts your technical knowledge seems limited i.e. the difference between artist's impressions and plans. I know you'll say this is why you hired an architect, but unfortunately to build something exactly the way you want it, you really do need to have a lot of understanding of the building trade. Otherwise you will end up with a combination of what your achitect and builder wants rather than what you want.

It's difficult to comment without knowing the full facts but I think you're being a little unfair on the OP when you say her "technical knowledge seems limited". Surely that's the reason one hires a professional, like an architect, in the first instance i.e. to provide the technical knowledge and expertise. The same way a solicitor would for a legal matter or an accountant might in a financial situation.

dazed+confused

Johnny Volume wrote: »

It's difficult to comment without knowing the full facts but I think you're being a little unfair on the OP when you say her "technical knowledge seems limited". Surely that's the reason one hires a professional, like an architect, in the first instance i.e. to provide the technical knowledge and expertise. The same way a solicitor would for a legal matter or an accountant might in a financial situation.

The extension will still be built to spec and that is why you hire the professionals. The more you know about the job in hand be it legal/medical/structural then the better chance you have of getting what YOU want. I do not know anyone who goes for an operation now without doing some of their own research first to discuss their options with their doctor. Before you go making requests to an architect you need to know what is possible under regulations, available space etc.

For instance what height would the internal ceiling be in the extension if the apex was at the height she wanted it at?

Johnny Volume

dazed+confused wrote: »

The extension will still be built to spec and that is why you hire the professionals. The more you know about the job in hand be it legal/medical/structural then the better chance you have of getting what YOU want. I do not know anyone who goes for an operation now without doing some of their own research first to discuss their options with their doctor. Before you go making requests to an architect you need to know what is possible under regulations, available space etc.

For instance what height would the internal ceiling be in the extension if the apex was at the height she wanted it at?

Well from what the OP has said already it seems the spec it's being built to, doesn't match what she was told it would look like at the outset. That seems to be the nub of the issue. I never for a moment suggested that you shouldn't do your own research but you hire experts for a reason. I would have thought an architect would be able to advise " what is possible under regulations, available space."

sydthebeat

i agree, i would not expect any lay person to know what heights are allowed "under regulation".

The architect should be able to describe in clear terms the impact of the structure on the existing build.

That being said, why did the client not shout stop the first time they saw the ridge board installed if it such an issue now?

sinnerboy

Doctormom wrote: »

We cannot live with this roof, and will have to ask him to have it changed.

Have you done so yet and what is his response ?

Doctormom wrote: »

However, we don't feel that we should bear the whole cost,

It may cost less. I take that only the bare structure is in place - no felt battens or tiles ? So changing to a flat roof now may even cost you less or at least be a cost neutral change.

sinnerboy

Johnny Volume wrote: »

Well from what the OP has said already it seems the spec it's being built to, doesn't match what she was told it would look like at the outset.

No I read that the client is getting what she signed up to. So upset and all as she may be this has to be borne in mind by her.

dazed+confused

What about lifting the roof one storey?

You could extend the bedroom out over the new extension, thus solving the window issue and giving you a nice new master suite!