Rose- S1E1 (new)

Doctor DooM

So, I rewatched it, article written and all so I can't steal your opinions

I actually found it a frustrating watch, as I did many episodes of RTD's era. There's really cool moments- such as 9's little speech about how he's aware of everything happening everywhere, and how manic he is when dealing with the Nestene - he's clearly still wounded by the Time War - but it's so at odds with the stupid stuff (belching plastic bin eating Micky? Should have seen that as a warning sign really) that it's jarring.

What really struck me is how... simple it was compared to now. There's a bad guy, the Doctor fights it, uses a little science to win, end of show. It's amazing how despite being the same series it's grown so much darker and complex in the last few seasons. I've always liked that about Who though even when I was a kid so that's fine by me!

Also, a few years later looking back, I really like the RTD Tardis set. Funny, I never did really when it was ongoing!

Wibbs

Doctor DooM wrote: »

I actually found it a frustrating watch, as I did many episodes of RTD's era. There's really cool moments- such as 9's little speech about how he's aware of everything happening everywhere, and how manic he is when dealing with the Nestene - he's clearly still wounded by the Time War - but it's so at odds with the stupid stuff (belching plastic bin eating Micky? Should have seen that as a warning sign really) that it's jarring.

What really struck me is how... simple it was compared to now. There's a bad guy, the Doctor fights it, uses a little science to win, end of show.

I reckon it was because it was the first one DD. They were trying to find the measure of a new audience for the show. So you had the cool bits for the adults/more hard core SF fans and the jokey bits for the kids(and some adults). It was more a mainstream at night family on the couch show at first, now while it retains some of that it's more aimed at the SF/fan end.

I like and can be meh about both drivers of the series in their own time, but for me anyway I find that Moffat is more biased towards the puzzle, the plot which I think finds more favour with Whovians(and the US market?), whereas RTD is as much about the character/relationships, the fantasy/SF setting is more a backdrop. While I'd be right behind the baying for blood of crap like the tardis towing earth(among other howlers), I think RTD is generally the better writer of people(esp women). He tends to write more "real people" you might meet and know, often with irritating tendencies(Rose a perfect example).

Their reactions to the "alien" is often less obvious too. Take this episode when Rose first crosses the threashold of the tardis. The bigger on the inside bit He starts to explain about he's an alien and she starts crying, he thinks it's about the shock of him, but it's about her BF Mickey that she thinks is dead and how she's going to have to explain this to his family, rather than jsust saying "is he dead" etc. More subtle, more real. All my humble of course *ducks*

It's amazing how despite being the same series it's grown so much darker and complex in the last few seasons.

Complex yes, dark I'm less sure DD. Lots of death going on in the first season. The episode where our Doc takes Rose back to witness her fathers death, not once, but twice and then after actually getting to know him has to watch him die again. And the Doc has a fair idea this is a v bad idea to start with, yet goes ahead with it. That's pretty head wrecking and dark right there. Other ones had animated corpses(and the Welsh lass has to die to save the world). Then you had a walking dead child with a gas mask for a face looking for his mummy. For me the first series had more "local" less fantasy dark if you know what I mean. The Father's day one in particular. Many viewers would have lost loved ones and the thoughts of going back to see them die again and again would be well freaky. RTD had other dark stuff that didn't make the cut, like the original plan that the Doc had "groomed" Rose's timeline to make her the perfect companion for him. Pity they didn't run more with that as it might have been interesting, especially given Eccleston's Doctor is no babyface matinee idol like Tennant(or obviously a youngfella like Matt), he's an older man asking a teenage girl to come with him. Her ma when introduced to him the second time called the rozzers, accused him of meeting her on the internet and slapped him.

Also, a few years later looking back, I really like the RTD Tardis set. Funny, I never did really when it was ongoing!

I liked it when I saw it first, but then grew to be a bit meh for me. I think they made the mistake later on of over lighting it. It was better darker and moodier IMHO. It would be my fave of the sets(closely followed by the current, with the Jules Verne hall of mirrors coming well behind for me). I liked the organic nature of it. More alive, less of a machine.

So DD when do we get to read your article? I'd love to read it.

Doctor DooM

Wibbs wrote: »

I like and can be meh about both drivers of the series in their own time, but for me anyway I find that Moffat is more biased towards the puzzle, the plot which I think finds more favour with Whovians(and the US market?), whereas RTD is as much about the character/relationships, the fantasy/SF setting is more a backdrop. While I'd be right behind the baying for blood of crap like the tardis towing earth(among other howlers), I think RTD is generally the better writer of people(esp women). He tends to write more "real people" you might meet and know, often with irritating tendencies(Rose a perfect example).

Their reactions to the "alien" is often less obvious too. Take this episode when Rose first crosses the threashold of the tardis. The bigger on the inside bit He starts to explain about he's an alien and she starts crying, he thinks it's about the shock of him, but it's about her BF Mickey that she thinks is dead and how she's going to have to explain this to his family, rather than jsust saying "is he dead" etc. More subtle, more real. All my humble of course *ducks*

I'm actually happy to agree with this, I really liked that moment. It made the Doctor seem really detached and alien and he really needed to right then.

Complex yes, dark I'm less sure DD. Lots of death going on in the first season. The episode where our Doc takes Rose back to witness her fathers death, not once, but twice and then after actually getting to know him has to watch him die again. And the Doc has a fair idea this is a v bad idea to start with, yet goes ahead with it. That's pretty head wrecking and dark right there. Other ones had animated corpses(and the Welsh lass has to die to save the world). Then you had a walking dead child with a gas mask for a face looking for his mummy. For me the first series had more "local" less fantasy dark if you know what I mean. The Father's day one in particular. Many viewers would have lost loved ones and the thoughts of going back to see them die again and again would be well freaky. RTD had other dark stuff that didn't make the cut, like the original plan that the Doc had "groomed" Rose's timeline to make her the perfect companion for him. Pity they didn't run more with that as it might have been interesting, especially given Eccleston's Doctor is no babyface matinee idol like Tennant(or obviously a youngfella like Matt), he's an older man asking a teenage girl to come with him. Her ma when introduced to him the second time called the rozzers, accused him of meeting her on the internet and slapped him.

I think the Doctor himself has definitely become much darker. As The great intelligence said, ask Soloman the trader!

So DD when do we get to read your article? I'd love to read it.

I dunno if I will, especially since cmodification I don't like self promoting on boards if the local mods are cool with it I might.

Wibbs

I have to say with time I'm appreciating Eccleston's Doctor more and more. Outside of Who he's the darkest, "heaviest" actor of all of the new guys. I was surprised at the time how he (mostly) handled the frivolous jokey stuff as well as playing to his strengths. For me he's not directly dark. It's a behind the eyes kinda dark. Tennant while I liked him was too obvious when he tried the dark stuff and he rarely appeared actually dangerous(I'm still undecided on Smith in this). Eccleston did "alien" pretty well too and there's the element of being a thug with his physicality. Maybe it's just me but I'm sorry he didn't get another series to develop it further. Him and Rose would have been very different too, if they kept the "they love each other" bit in play. Uneasier. Dare I say it darker on his side.

Das Kitty

I remember watching this in 2005 and finding it awfully cringey. When we did our grand old rewatch last year I still found it uncomfortably bad in places (oh plastic Mickey!) but I was more forgiving of the flaws.

Eccleston's brilliant as the Doctor, IMO. I was disappointed to see him go.

As Wibbs said, had he stayed on and they continued the love angle with Rose it would have been very different. I actually think it would have reflected the situation better. Having pretty Tennant take his place sort of sanitised the fact that this was an ancient alien and a 20 year old girl.

I liked Rose herself a lot in the first series. I liked that she was so so human and the contrast it struck with the Doctor not being that. I also (possibly unpopularly) loved Jackie.

Professey Chin

Just gave it a quick rewatch today.
Agreeing with everyone about a few places being cringy like plastic mickey (character I never liked much anyway)

I still think its a good episode. Still love him introducing himself to Rose
I'm the Doctor, by the way. What's your name?
Rose.
Nice to meet you, Rose. Run for your life!

And Jackie trying to seduce him is good too

BuffyBot

Agree with the bin/plastic Mickey thing being just cruddy, frankly and I never liked that TARDIS console room.

The Doctor's introduction to Rose is probably one of the highlights to be sure. It set the tone for the series, pretty much.

Interrobang

Wibbs wrote: »

for me anyway I find that Moffat is more biased towards the puzzle, the plot which I think finds more favour with Whovians(and the US market?), whereas RTD is as much about the character/relationships, the fantasy/SF setting is more a backdrop. While I'd be right behind the baying for blood of crap like the tardis towing earth(among other howlers), I think RTD is generally the better writer of people(esp women). He tends to write more "real people" you might meet and know, often with irritating tendencies(Rose a perfect example).

I agree with this. Yes, there were some mighty awful moments, but RTD's characters were more real and his companions were grounded by relationships and family which, while they drove you nuts sometimes (except Wilf - I loved Wilf!), gave them more depth.

Moffat has written some very good (and one cracking) one-off stories, but as a showrunner RTD was better, especially when it came to story arcs. Yes, parts of his seasons were truly, truly awful, but there were also plenty of satisfying 'ah!' moments as story elements slotted together and - something that Moffat is not good at! - there was resolution. Looking back now, it's even easier to spot all the links and neat connections within each season and from season to season. Moffat, by contrast, seems to be bouncing around like an ADHD kid on a sugar-high, half-constructing one puzzle before abandoning it for the next shiny new puzzle. His list of unresolved questions is growing longer and more tiresome.

On Eccleston, I really liked him as the Doctor and would love to have seen more of him. We're getting a lot of references to the Doctor's darker side in his current incarnation, but Eccleston is dark, and he's angry and damaged and dangerous. None of that jars with his energy, enthusiasm and sense of humour, however, and all credit to Eccleston for carrying it off. He's in my top three with Baker and Pertwee.

Daemos

Wibbs wrote: »

I like and can be meh about both drivers of the series in their own time, but for me anyway I find that Moffat is more biased towards the puzzle, the plot which I think finds more favour with Whovians(and the US market?), whereas RTD is as much about the character/relationships, the fantasy/SF setting is more a backdrop.

I'm highlighting this section in particular, because it touches on something I only noticed in Rose when I rewatched it this morning.

The entire story is based around her, and how she encounters the Doctor. I always knew that, but it was only this morning that I realised the full extent of it. There are barely any scenes throughout the whole story in which Rose isn't present. I think the only exception is when Mickey gets eaten by the wheelie bin. Besides that, she is present in every single scene

As the title should have told me, the story is all about her. In fact, I think this could retroactively be almost seen as a Doctor-lite story. Like Blink, it's not about the Doctor, it's about one person's encounter with him; the only difference is that Rose becomes a travelling companion. The focus shifts more to the Doctor for most of the rest of the series, but only after we see him through someone else's eyes first

I never really liked this story, because I wasn't all-too-impressed with the sci-fi alien invasion element of it. It's only today that I realised that that isn't the main story. As you said, Wibbs, RTD often leaves the sci-fi in the background and focuses on the relationship. This story is a perfect example of that

I only ever thought this story was average at best before now, but honestly, after this rewatch, I see it in a different light and have a greater appreciation for it, because now I see what it was trying to accomplish. And you know what? I think it worked

pixelburp

Whilst I hold general antipathy towards 'Rose' and much of series 1, I find the tattle falling out from that début season pretty intriguing. 'Rose' was directed by one Keith Boak, a man whose only appearance in the new series was to direct (arguably) it's most infantile stories, 'Rose' and the Slitheen double-header. The scuttlebutt is that Boak was under the assumption the reboot was a CBBC show, and would be aimed only at kids, hence why those stories felt & looked so childish.

It was also rumoured Boak not only fell out with the production team for budget / filming overruns (apparently in 'Rose' there were scenes scrapped because Boak messed up), that he also had issues with Eccleston, who confronted the producers about Boak's apparent treatment of people on set (now, here the rumours get very fanciful - so probably false - that then producer Phil Collinson sided with Boak over this thus causing a rift with Eccles)

All rumour of course, so pinches of salt are always needed in case of emergency, but interesting that Boak never directed for New Who again, and of course it was always rumoured one of Eccleston's reasons for leaving were differences with some of the production team.

Wibbs

Das Kitty wrote: »

As Wibbs said, had he stayed on and they continued the love angle with Rose it would have been very different. I actually think it would have reflected the situation better. Having pretty Tennant take his place sort of sanitised the fact that this was an ancient alien and a 20 year old girl.

Exactly. Going on memory Jackies reaction to him was along the lines of "what are ya 45? Meet her online did ya" *roundhouse slap* It would have been a lot more uncomfortable to watch. Not that Eccy isn't an attractive enough bloke in his own right I'm sure, but he's no post adolescent poster boy. IMHO I reckon if he had stayed they would have buried that undercurrent way more than with Dave I could be in a reformed boyband me Tennant.

I liked Rose herself a lot in the first series. I liked that she was so so human and the contrast it struck with the Doctor not being that. I also (possibly unpopularly) loved Jackie.

Ditto. She was an ordinary young woman, a chav even, from a towerblock estate, oven chips and minimum wage with a circle of people to match and she was well drawn in my humble. The things that seem to irritate some other fans about her make her more real, even more likable to me. Yep she is stroppy and possessive and confused and a pain in the bum at times on top of her good qualities. Like I say she feels more real. Again IMH that's why her return was ruined. Not the fact she returned, but she returned as a whole different person.

Chinpool wrote: »

And Jackie trying to seduce him is good too

"eh no thanks"

BuffyBot wrote: »

The Doctor's introduction to Rose is probably one of the highlights to be sure. It set the tone for the series, pretty much.

Yea nail on head BB, it did too.

Interrobang wrote:

On Eccleston, I really liked him as the Doctor and would love to have seen more of him. We're getting a lot of references to the Doctor's darker side in his current incarnation, but Eccleston is dark, and he's angry and damaged and dangerous. None of that jars with his energy, enthusiasm and sense of humour, however, and all credit to Eccleston for carrying it off. He's in my top three with Baker and Pertwee.

Yea he's defo my fave among the new Whoniverse. Like you say he is dark. Matt and Dave just play dark, they speak dark from the script(though IMH Dave is better at that). Put it another way if you decided to make a fully adult Dr Who movie and had the choice of past writers like Robert Bolt, Beckett* or Ibsen etc, the casting director wouldn't be looking at the last two guys in the list. Hell check out the episode we're all waiting for in November. If Johnny Hurt is oops I did baaad shít in the time war doc we'll believe it. If instead of JH, Chris had turned around in the reveal in full on mode you'd believe it waaaay quicker than with the other two lads. Well I would anyway.

Hmmm just a thought... I have read elsewhere that Eccleston was approached a couple of times to do the 50th, but turned it down in the end. I wonder if John Hurt's part wasn't originally written for him? In the early stages anyway. That would make some sense. The Ninths origin vibe. It would have tied new Who together quite well with it and would have made the dynamic between him and Rose very interesting when they meet up in a later timeline. "Her" doctor would be even more alien for her.

Daemos wrote: »

I never really liked this story, because I wasn't all-too-impressed with the sci-fi alien invasion element of it. It's only today that I realised that that isn't the main story. As you said, Wibbs, RTD often leaves the sci-fi in the background and focuses on the relationship. This story is a perfect example of that

Yea and for me and very broadly RTD writes for the slobs on the saturday evening couch, M writes for the nerds on message boards. Hang on... I should like him more then. :eek:

I only ever thought this story was average at best before now, but honestly, after this rewatch, I see it in a different light and have a greater appreciation for it, because now I see what it was trying to accomplish. And you know what? I think it worked

Ditto and if it hadn't I suppose we'd likely not have this forum and new Who. Piper was well cast too IMH. She's not obviously pinup material if you get objective about it, but there's something about her on a few levels(and in saying that she'd be soooo not my type o thang at all).







*though that particular preproduction meeting might include lines like: "OK Sam, we think you're bleedin deadly and fair dues ya mad Irish feck, but mark us well, we need a fcuking plot and no you can't have the two younger Docs up to their oxters in dustbins with Johnny entoning "wibbly wobbly timey wimey" behind them. In French. For an hour. Oh and we know you and Johnny are old gargle buddies, but he doesn't get all the best lines even if he does send a crate of bushmills and 200 major to your hotel room. This is the BBC FFS". For me it is kinda cool that there is now a tenuous connection between Sammy Beckett and Dr Who.