EI Cadetship - Joe Duffy Show 23rd May

APM

Interesting discussion today on Joe Duffy Radio show on RTE1 about the Aer Lingus cadetship and whether it is necessary at all due to the supply of successfully trained pilots available on the market.

Personally I know of at least 30 trained, Irish, qualified 737 rated pilots with over 2000hrs multi-crew time who would jump at the opportunity to work for Aer Lingus and be based at home in Ireland for the rest of their careers.

This scheme must cost Aer Lingus well over €110,000 per cadet including ratings/base training etc.

Trained guys, with Irish licenses and over 2000hrs not needing base training would probably cost EI €20,000 with an in house type rating.

For an airline looking to make bigger profits would this not be an easy way of saving the airline at least €1.5mill euro? Also at the same time reducing the risk of guys actually failing the training as they already have ATPL's and ratings on a similar size jet?

Pilotdude5

Any link to a podcast or anything?

basill

Please do not apply perfectly sound logic to the Aer Lingus recruitment process:)

I can tell you we all know guys and gals that would be a great fit for the airline but we were told a few years ago that dropping in a CV on their behalf to the head of training is a waste of time as the process is all centralised and lead by HR.

imfml

Good aule Joe Aer Lingus bashing again, even when they are creating jobs for young graduates, they can do no right.

The 30 trained, 737 rated pilots you know will probably have a chance to apply for Aer Lingus this year anyway, even with 20 cadets returning, they will always still need direct entry pilots. I can't see anything wrong with a company spreading the age and experience of its employees, it's logical.

Pilotdude5

creating jobs for young graduates

Creating jobs for non-flying graduates specifically. Flying graduates are deemed unsuitable after putting in the hard graft. 8000 unemployed pilots across Europe at the moment.

I caught up with some people I trained with during the week and theres a lot of pissed off recently qualified guys and girls(and Instructors) who aren't too happy with this latest PR stunt by AL.

imfml

As far as I can see, AL have hired over 100 direct entry pilots in the last 2/3 years and only 20 cadets.

MoeJay

Before this thread inevitably goes downhill....Aer Lingus are a corporate entity who are free to choose any method of recruitment. Just like any other airline. They will tell you the only people they are answerable to are the shareholders, not RTE...

...nobody seems to have any problem with the recruitment and employment models used by other airlines.....????

Pilotdude5

http://www.rte.ie/radio1/liveline/

A trained Irish pilot who has to travel to Southeast Asia for work called to express his frustration at the new Aer Lingus cadet pilot scheme , saying there are plenty of qualified pilots who would jumps at the chance to work for the airline.

TBH if he is gone to the unspeakable airline I hope he doesn't get to chance to come back.

A private airline can do as it pleases, but with 8000 unemployed pilots and the company looking for 100 voluntary redundancies for "Cost saving measures"(Which will turn into forced redundancies if the number isn't met) spending millions training Engineers and IT workers to be pilots makes no sense.

Maybe thats the problem, they have Microbiologists working as Business analysts and Dentists working in accounts. I assume HR is staffed by fishermen.

kona

Pilotdude5 wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/radio1/liveline/



TBH if he is gone to the unspeakable airline I hope he doesn't get to chance to come back.

A private airline can do as it pleases, but with 8000 unemployed pilots and the company looking for 100 voluntary redundancies for "Cost saving measures"(Which will turn into forced redundancies if the number isn't met) spending millions training Engineers and IT workers to be pilots makes no sense.

Maybe thats the problem, they have Microbiologists working as Business analysts and Dentists working in accounts. I assume HR is staffed by fishermen.

And the government has a teacher as the leader, had a solicitor as head of finance , intact alot of the government td have never work in the private sector. Guess who votes them in joe?

Aer lingus are taking on pilots that suit their profile, not pilots that threw money at it and got trained. No issue with that but obviously aer lingus have a very specific profile they want in a pilot.

People need to build a bridge.

Shamrock231

I think it's a good idea, it opens up the path to becoming a pilot to a lot more people who wouldn't otherwise have the means to become a pilot. While it is unfair on those who already trained, of course it is, that doesn't mean it's right for airlines to expect people to gamble €100,000 in the hope of becoming a pilot like they did. If Aer Lingus does go and take on the pilot that did the training themselves, then they're only supporting the current model of people taking all this risk themselves to do their training, with no guarantee at the end that they'll get a job to pay off the debt. I think Aer Lingus deserves an award for doing their bit to stop the slide that's been seen in the past 20 years.

Then again, I might be bias seeing as I am one of those people who could never be able to afford pilot training without either the support of an airline, or having a reasonable chance of a job at the end.

Pilotdude5

It would be nice to think all the cadets will be leaving certs who can't afford it. Unfortunately it won't be. Graduates or college students who only showed an interest when they spotted the ad will be the demographic. A quick glance over POF and AGK and a spiel about dreams of being a pilot and off they go.

At 18 I was in no position to fund my training either. So I got a job, worked and paid for it without a loan until halfway through the MEIR. It's unfortunately a path people turn their noses up at these days. Everything has to be now now now!
I actually agree with you that they would be supporting the debt and gambling Mom and Dads house brigade if they took on that particular fellow and guys like him. The getting loans on a whim idea is what fecked this country up after all.

Unfortunately this cadetship will turn fully funded by the cadet in years to come like BA and now Qatar. The legacy carriers have been sitting there watching as people throw money right left and center at their competitors only to end up joining them anyway.

The new policy is: Get them(And more importantly their money) first. Anyone paying for types now will have a pretty tough time getting a job 5 years down the line. Its either going to be cadetships or 20000+ hour direct entry captains.

Shamrock231

I'm not sure whether or not it'll go fully funded, TBH I expected this one to be 75% Cadet, 25% EI, not the other way around, but I do think there'll still be an element of funding in future, though likely all gained back through a bond.

Doing a course like the BA FPP while not ideal, is acceptable in my view, you've got a job at the end 99% unless things go drastically wrong [9/11 for the last set of cadets back in 2001], so there isn't as much risk being taken. Part of being a pilot is balancing risks, and deciding whether or not taking a certain risk is a good idea, paying €100,000 with no guarantee of a job at the end doesn't sound like a sensible risk to me. Unfortunately many did it this way, but the only way to stop forcing people to do this is to do what Aer Lingus is doing, unfortunately for some of those just through the system, this will likely mean that they may get burnt.

Pilotdude5

Nah the BA scheme was created for the next generation of rich, white upperclass "Nigels" Remember the ad that got banned? Its still pay to fly whatever way you look at it.

Getting a 100000 loan from the bank or mom is certainly a stupid idea. Overheard a conversation while training of some one 105000 in debt with no job and I couldn't even comprehend it. I paid 55000 and worked for it and was quite happy to spend my own money. I would rather stay on the ground now as well then scrape money together and buy a job off someone else. FBO ops interview lined up soon.

Stovepipe

With regard to pilot recruitment in EI, at least in theory it is open to all comers and not just the offspring of rich daddies. In the last class, some had PPLs and some had no hours or very little, some had connections to Lingus and some had none, some had degrees, some none and so on. Allegedly, the current recruitment process is designed to prevent nepotism and the old pals act, but that's not always the case...Upside for Lingus; they can mould them to suit the Company. Downside: the foreigners (Norn Iron included) leave within a few years (which has been recited by the pilots' union ad nauseam, as a good reason to prioritise recruitment of Irish pilots. The Company cannot be seen to do so, so every time it takes on cadets, they lose a large amount of them within 3-5 years. This doesn't appear to bother any other country in the EU, who always favour nationals). As for DE pilots, the Company had a great deal of opposition from the Union over this, especially with regard to DE captains and in effect, had to buy the Unions' compliance.
One final point: EI, like every other airline in the world, owes nobody a living.

regards
Stovepipe

basill

There are a few rules about getting into flying.

The first is that aviation is a process of self selection. You decide because you have the cash (or credit line) that you will be the next big thing in aviation and head off to get your licences. There is no one standing there trying to keep you away from your credit cards telling you that you are unsuitable. And even if there was then the majority would plough on anyway. Unfortunately the majority of airlines don't share the same enthusiasm as you do and hence only a fraction ever fly commercially. In fact I would surmise it would be single digit success rates at best.

Secondly, its all about timing. Around 2-3 years ago there were a number of direct entries that joined the ranks with no type ratings. About 6-7 years ago during the last "boom" there were just short of 100 pilots that joined the ranks. Some were modular, some integrated, some low houred with 320 type ratings and others from the likes of Cityjet, AA and FR plus a bunch of other european carriers.

You can moan as much as you like about the AL recruitment process but if you missed out on the two fundamental laws of aviation outlined above then you should look closer to home and channel your frustration elsewhere.

happy_head

In my opinion one of the requirements should be to hold a PPL. This shows that you have an interest in aviation and you just didn't spot the advert in the Irish Times and say "ahh sure I'll give that a go".

Pilotdude5

There is no one standing there trying to keep you away from your credit cards telling you that you are unsuitable. And even if there was then the majority would plough on anyway

I was and still am but the zombies won't listen.

I and many others got the timing right qualifying when AL apparently needs pilots. Hello AL I have a CV to hand in. It list my previous jobs and I also have a CPL and M....*SMASH! Door in closed in face. Geologists and Nurses only please.

One final point: EI, like every other airline in the world, owes nobody a living.

I know I know, but a Med graduate deserves a Doctor job more than anyone else.

Lustrum

I heard another bit about this today on my way to work, a guy's father was on - the son is on the dole and can't get a flying job. Two things struck me while listening to it (and I'm in the same situation as the son, and many other)

1. The sense of entitlement just because you have a licence is beyond me. It seems that if you have 1st time passes, airlines should be ringing you up to offer you a job. If the son does get an interview and is asked what has he been doing since finishing training, saying "on the dole" is the wrong answer. Get off your ass, get a job doing something in the industry, and start trying to make your own luck! Granted it's not fair that someone else will get a cadetship, but life isn't fair!

2. This guy's father feels he should get a job in Ireland, because he doesn't want him to have to leave. The mind boggles! If you want to have the opportunity to experience the world, get a job that allows you to move around, such as a pilot! You want to stay at home, get a job in the corner shop.

Obviously not all non-flying-but-qualified pilots are like this, but this chap definitely isn't the only one, and it gives the rest of us a bad name. I know it's frustrating that there are not more jobs available, but the day I hear of an airline knocking on someone's door to pluck them off the dole and into an airplane, is the day I eat my licence

A319er

Well I believe a holder of any license doesn't mean they are a qualified driver ,
Some of the training schools are far to interested in trainee volumes ie get cash flow in and keep it growing this CAN or MAY mean they are not focused on what any airline actually is looking for.

EI took on about 70 non cadets in last two years and found that the time and effort and resources money and training crew was onerous and made a decision to by pass these colleges and do it themselves, fair play to them I say.

God knows the roads are full of fully licensed drivers who are a danger to all and sundry.

I have sympathy for those who have the passion and invested heavily and are not flying but the griping on the radio......

phonypony

A319er wrote: »

Well I believe a holder of any license doesn't mean they are a qualified driver ,
Some of the training schools are far to interested in trainee volumes ie get cash flow in and keep it growing this CAN or MAY mean they are not focused on what any airline actually is looking for.

EI took on about 70 non cadets in last two years and found that the time and effort and resources money and training crew was onerous and made a decision to by pass these colleges and do it themselves, fair play to them I say.

God knows the roads are full of fully licensed drivers who are a danger to all and sundry.

I have sympathy for those who have the passion and invested heavily and are not flying but the griping on the radio......

huh?

asdfg!

Aer Lingus are of course entitled to recruit as they please. But using cadetships seem rather out of step with most other airlines.
I would reject this idea:

EI took on about 70 non cadets in last two years and found that the time and effort and resources money and training crew was onerous and made a decision to by pass these colleges and do it themselves, fair play to them I say.

That's an excuse. It seems other airlines manage this without finding it onerous. I think Stovepipe's suggestion is closer to the truth, the union is doesn't like DE pilots particularly Captains.

There's your answer for the cadetships that and the fact that Aer Lingus can't seem to leave behind it's 'national airline' status.. That's a problem in itself when your main rival is a behemoth like Ryanair. Not only do Ryanair not find recruiting DE onerous but they make money off it and they don't care if they stay or leave. Whatever else you can say about Ryanair, no one doubts the quality of their pilots.

Arguing that cadetships give a chance to those who otherwise not have the opportunity is spurious as well. I imagine if you checked the profile of the average Aer Lingus cadet you'll find that many if not most are from comfortable backgrounds, many will already have started flight training, indicating they have the money. The reality is that most Aer Lingus cadets over the years wanted to be pilots all along and it wasn't simply a whim to apply. Not only that the very fact they succeeded in getting a cadetship marks them as someone who probably would have succeeded as a pilot anyway. In fact arguably Ryanair gives a better chance to the average person, they don't care how you got your licence or who your Daddy is.

The simply truth is that if Aer Lingus can't find suitable pilots among the ranks of those who paid for their own training. Then the problem lies with Aer Lingus not the applicants.

But like I said it's up to Aer Lingus to decide how they want to recruit.

One thing for sure, if someone who aspires to be a pilot depends entirely on getting a cadetship then they've failed the most basic test. If you really want to be a pilot you will find a way. Excuses like not having the money just don't wash. But even those who find the money, quite often fail the next basic test. Finding a first job or getting experience. It's surprisingly easy to spot the people who will succeed in moving on the airlines. It's also easy to spot those who'll never succeed.

BrakePad

I always laugh when I hear this "if you pay for your Ryanair TR now in 5 years you wont be able to get a job" crap. In 5 years when you have 3000-4000 hours on a 737 you will be in a much better position to find a decent job than those who are too morally opposed to paying up. They are the goal posts in this game now and people have to accept that. Another thing that irks me is this "I want a job in Ireland rubbish"...I mean....get real!!

What I have seen in the pilot "market" is an awful lot of older guys who could only cough up the money around the 30 yo mark and find it hard to compete with younger guys for jobs. Also a large amount of the unemployed pilots in Ireland who would whinge like this guy on Joe Duffy are from PTC or the likes and were sold a crock to start with. They were told that if they trained in PTC the airlines would call them...poor fools still believe it!:(

Jhcx

If their contract is the same as BA it's good for them because they get 7 years out of you or you loose. Why take a qualified pilot who might leave after a year or 2.

BrakePad

Jhcx wrote: »

If their contract is the same as BA it's good for them because they get 7 years out of you or you loose. Why take a qualified pilot who might leave after a year or 2.

A qualified pilot(ie a DE with a few 1000 jet hours) may be likely to stay long term possibly than a cadet. If you come to Aer Lingus from say Ryanair with 3000 hours you are likely to stay in Aer Lingus because if you chose them over the big money in the Middle East you most likely want a career there.

Stovepipe

Hi all,
A lot of fellas out there have to get real and expand their personal horizons and go and look for flying work in other areas, such as flight instruction, glider towing, paradropping, banner towing and so on. Ireland has a tiny non-airline general aviation market so anyone who hasn't instantly got a flight deck slot after training has to go abroad. You won't get a start as an air-charter/taxi pilot unless you have a couple of hundred multi, at least. You won't get a start in a jet charter outfit until you have jet or turboprop experience or 1500 TT. You have to get out there and put your face in front of recruiters, as sitting in front of the telly whinging will not get you a start. @jhcx, the problem is that cadets often leave after a few years anyway, which is the constant experience of EI and must also be happening in other airlines that use cadetships. More experienced pilots are often starting families and want a bit of stability and are willing to sit still for a while and justify themselves to employers.@brakepad, a lot of people have exhausted their funds by the time they complete training and don't have/can't get the funds to buy a Ryanair TR and fund their own survival as a newby Ryanair pilot (which is another huge expense not mentioned by the training schools!). they also find it hard to maintain currency, especially the ME and IR. cadetships, at least, offer a rare chance to get the job without being broke/heavily indebted/starving at home

regards
Stovepipe

BrakePad

Stovepipe wrote: »

Hi all,
@brakepad, a lot of people have exhausted their funds by the time they complete training and don't have/can't get the funds to buy a Ryanair TR and fund their own survival as a newby Ryanair pilot (which is another huge expense not mentioned by the training schools!). they also find it hard to maintain currency, especially the ME and IR. cadetships, at least, offer a rare chance to get the job without being broke/heavily indebted/starving at home

I know the pitfalls etc etc of Ryanair but when people embark on the pilot training road they need to look at the realities and the realities are Training Costs + TR costs if you want to fly commercial. That is where the goalposts are set and if you cannot meet that financial requirement then you cannot complain when you dont get a job. It's like only budjeting for a CPL with no IR and then complaining you cant find work.
I see an awful lot of this ridiculous carry on on aviation boards about people "buying jobs" by taking self funded TR jobs. I can guarantee that if some of these people had 30k to spare they would do the same in a heartbeat. It's a real case of hating the game and not the player. Many people starting their fATPL training enter knowing full well that in all likelyhood they will have to pony up a TR cost/ work in the Ryanair acid mines to get that 1st job. Accepting that and moving on without whinging is what separates the men from the boys!

It's a simple case of putting aside dreams and looking at reality. I have had many pilots tell me to take any job that gives you jet or multi engine time and to get to 1500+ hours, then the market gets a lot wider as far as job prospects go...to dip in to my sporting background you have to "put the head down and pump the legs".

Fully Established

I would have thought EI might look for you to have some sort of flying experience to show you know what your getting into if successful , rather than just getting applications from candidates that have no real interest in flying but apply anyway . As is said above aviation is a small community in Ireland so lets look after our own first as is the norm of other airlines around the world where it is a requirement you are a resident or passport holder of the country .

asdfg!

As is said above aviation is a small community in Ireland so lets look after our own first as is the norm of other airlines around the world where it is a requirement you are a resident or passport holder of the country .

This is the EU, you can't do that. But now imagine if the British decided to apply that principle? Ireland is a small aviation community but it cannot possibly supply all it's own pilots anyway.

Really there is some serious rubbish being talked on this thread from people whose experience of the aviation industry comes from the internet or their imagination. People who have no idea just how small the pool of suitably qualified people is. Aviation always was multinational. If you had spent more than five minutes working in the business you find that out quick. There is no place for the closed shop mentality. Maybe that suits the Germans or the French where they have sufficient numbers of people to meet their own requirements. But in a small country like Ireland that cannot happen. Aer Lingus, Ryanair and the rest always hired pilots from other countries. They have to. It's a practical necessity.

So please a bit of realism, as Stovepipe says.

Fully Established

Really there is some serious rubbish being talked on this thread from people whose experience of the aviation industry comes from the internet or their imagination. People who have no idea just how small the pool of suitably qualified people is. Aviation always was multinational. If you had spent more than five minutes working in the business you find that out quick. There is no place for the closed shop mentality. Maybe that suits the Germans or the French where they have sufficient numbers of people to meet their own requirements. But in a small country like Ireland that cannot happen. Aer Lingus, Ryanair and the rest always hired pilots from other countries. They have to. It's a practical necessity.

So please a bit of realism, as Stovepipe says.[/QUOTE]

In fact regardless of this being the EU , companies around the globe have requirements that can exclude pilot's that are not national's of that country from applying for jobs also speaking the local language is a must .For example how many Irish pilot's are flying for Air France, Lufthansa or Alitalia to name a few ?
Their are more qualified Irish pilots that are not flying because their are not enough jobs for them . Yet the foreign pilots can come here and compete with the Irish qualified Pilots for work in Ireland. A couple of month's ago the Canadian pilot's union lobbied the Canadian department of transport to block Sunwing recruiting international pilot's to be based in Europe for the summer season and Canada for the winter by claiming they had enough suitably qualified pilot's in Canada , is this acceptable ?

phonypony

Fully Established wrote: »

For example how many Irish pilot's are flying for Air France?

Are we including Cityjet in that?

asdfg!

Fully established, Sigh:
Have a look at this website:
http://www.rishworthaviation.com/page/4/opportunities.aspx?gclid=CLWdivP3uLcCFaI82wod3DMAkQ

and this one:

https://b2b.caeparcaviation.com/Jobs/FlightCrew

Foreign airlines who cannot get enough pilots domestically just like in Ireland.

What the airlines you mention choose to do is neither here nor there. But I would have thought it reasonable to be able to speak the local language in certain cases. But most airlines just like you to speak English.

Let's clear this up once and for all. If you're Irish and have failed to be accepted by an Irish airline then the problem is you, not the recruitment policy of the airline. Ryanair being the exception, it's always the exception, but the stopped recruiting Irish candidates for their own reasons. Maybe like the guy on Joe Duffy, they don't want to be sent abroad. But then again Ryanair is very much a multinational airline. When they weren't discriminating against Irish people they still couldn't find enough suitable Irish pilots.

The attitude that foreigners are here taking our jobs is ridiculous and shows a complete lack of understanding of how the aviation industry works.

Fully Established

asdfg! wrote: »

Fully established, Sigh:
Have a look at this website:
http://www.rishworthaviation.com/page/4/opportunities.aspx?gclid=CLWdivP3uLcCFaI82wod3DMAkQ

and this one:

https://b2b.caeparcaviation.com/Jobs/FlightCrew

Foreign airlines who cannot get enough pilots domestically just like in Ireland.

What the airlines you mention choose to do is neither here nor there. But I would have thought it reasonable to be able to speak the local language in certain cases. But most airlines just like you to speak English.

Let's clear this up once and for all. If you're Irish and have failed to be accepted by an Irish airline then the problem is you, not the recruitment policy of the airline. Ryanair being the exception, it's always the exception, but the stopped recruiting Irish candidates for their own reasons. Maybe like the guy on Joe Duffy, they don't want to be sent abroad. But then again Ryanair is very much a multinational airline. When they weren't discriminating against Irish people they still couldn't find enough suitable Irish pilots.

The attitude that foreigners are here taking our jobs is ridiculous and shows a complete lack of understanding of how the aviation industry works.

I fully understand the aviation business I am lucky enough to fly for a living say what you like but their are a lot of Irish frozen ATPL holders here who cannot get jobs , the two sites you posted are looking for pilots with experience . I understand nobody has a right to a job but at least give our own a chance before looking at foreign pilots .

Fully Established

phonypony wrote: »

Are we including Cityjet in that?

No Air France mainline .