CIE deficit would be €45m - Irish Times

lil5

CIE deficit would be €45m without assets sale and State help - Irish Times -
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/cie-deficit-would-be-45m-without-assets-sale-and-state-help-1.1401994

...
Sources said the report has highlighted that CIE’s problems are more severe than simply a matter of falling State payments under Public Service Obligation (PSO) arrangements.

According to the sources, it has underlying problems in terms of revenue: current revenues of €725 million were down by €64 million in 2012 compared to 2011. These figures excluded the monies paid under PSO.

The group had an operating deficit of €295 million before State grants, property disposals and interest were taken into account (€298 million in 2011).

The report has projected that there will be further deficits in 2013 and 2014 but has predicted a return to profitability in 2015.

...

hyperborean

I would love to see the breakdown,

Little things like wages and pensions for example,

Vic_08

hyperborean wrote: »

I would love to see the breakdown,

Little things like wages and pensions for example,

Group and company accounts and annual reports are published on the respective websites

hyperborean

Vic_08 wrote: »

Group and company accounts and annual reports are published on the respective websites

Do you think I didnt check? 2011 are available but nothing on 2012 to compare?


http://www.cie.ie/about_us/annual_reports.asp

LXFlyer

CIE annual statutory accounts are never published until at least Q3 of the following year.

You've a while to wait yet.

Stevek101

2012 reports are all up now.

hyperborean

Stevek101 wrote: »

2012 reports are all up now.

Obviously boards is not on the ban list in the CIE accounts office,

devnull

So the average wage in Bus Eireann went up slightly last year, despite what I have read elsewhere claiming the contrary previously.

Staff numbers were down overall to 2,551 from 2,605
26 of those losing jobs were part time and 28 were school bus drivers.

However wages and paroll related costs have increased to €131,688,000 from €130,656,000 including pensions and social welfare costs.

That means average staff costs have increased to €51,622 from €50,155 that they were during the previous accounting year.

Stripping out pension and social welfare costs, average wages have increased from €42,977 to €43,957 which equals a net increase of just over 2% on average wages at the company.

Basically any inefficiencies cut out by cutting numbers have been wiped out by wage increases elsewhere.

corktina

45 million eh? and three million or so is down to the WRC, thats a high proportion of what is actually a surprisingly low overall figure.

johnny76

Cant find the original, but if memory serves each passenger journey on the DART is subsidised by €7 to €8. That alone must be the €45 million.

TheDB

The auditors were paid €742,000 in 2012 vs €468,000 in 2011. Focking Hell!!!

goingnowhere

johnny76 wrote: »

Cant find the original, but if memory serves each passenger journey on the DART is subsidised by €7 to €8. That alone must be the €45 million.

More like 50 cent, WRC is 80 euro

Tickityboo

devnull wrote: »

So the average wage in Bus Eireann went up slightly last year, despite what I have read elsewhere claiming the contrary previously.

Staff numbers were down overall to 2,551 from 2,605
26 of those losing jobs were part time and 28 were school bus drivers.

However wages and paroll related costs have increased to €131,688,000 from €130,656,000 including pensions and social welfare costs.

That means average staff costs have increased to €51,622 from €50,155 that they were during the previous accounting year.

Stripping out pension and social welfare costs, average wages have increased from €42,977 to €43,957 which equals a net increase of just over 2% on average wages at the company.

Basically any inefficiencies cut out by cutting numbers have been wiped out by wage increases elsewhere.

Well considering the drivers have been on a pay freeze since 2008.
The increase has not come from them!!
I wonder has it anything to do with the man willing to take a pay cut of the princely sum of €5000?

devnull

Well the pay has gone up by around a million but staff have left so there is no way that even a few people could make that difference since it would be more than a million which was added to the wage bill since bear in mind some people also have left which would have reduced the wage bill, but then it's been put up not just to the previous years levels but beyond them by extra pay of some description.

Have people across some grades worked on average more overtime in 2012 than in 2011? This would put the average wage up even if core wages have been the same, especially if such overtime is covering for staff who let go. However it would have meant management have made stupid decisions to let people go if they are having to be back filled with overtime which costs them even more money than keeping those they got rid of.

One thing is for sure it needs to be addressed since if a loss making company has cut staff, you'd think that would be to save money, but in fact here staff has cut but the wage bill has increased which is wrong. One thing is for sure that I can see why BE now want to decrease the wage bill because the situation with spending on wages only got worse in 2012, however the question is why did that happen in 2012 and why management allowed that to happen?

Cookie_Monster

TheDB wrote: »

The auditors were paid €742,000 in 2012 vs €468,000 in 2011. Focking Hell!!!

I can imagine that's because they've done a hell of a lot more work since the losses started mounting and the DoT / DoF have started looking closer at it and asking questions.

carpejugulum

€293,000,000 from the tax payer per year and fares are still ridiculously expensive

LXFlyer

Tickityboo wrote: »

Well considering the drivers have been on a pay freeze since 2008.
The increase has not come from them!!
I wonder has it anything to do with the man willing to take a pay cut of the princely sum of €5000?

For the record, the CEO has already taken a 14% pay cut prior to this further €5k cut.

Tickityboo

lxflyer wrote: »

For the record, the CEO has already taken a 14% pay cut prior to this further €5k cut.

My heart bleeds for him how will he ever survive on €180000 per year.
As has been said alot of bad management decisions have been made and yet he can stiil command that salary!!!
He should be out on his arse!!

markpb

Tickityboo wrote: »

My heart bleeds for him how will he ever survive on €180000 per year.
As has been said alot of bad management decisions have been made and yet he can stiil command that salary!!!
He should be out on his arse!!

I'm not defending him or his salary but he's relatively underpaid for a CEO compared o other companies of that size (or smaller).

LXFlyer

Tickityboo wrote: »

My heart bleeds for him how will he ever survive on €180000 per year.
As has been said alot of bad management decisions have been made and yet he can stiil command that salary!!!
He should be out on his arse!!

Well perhaps you would care to be effectively on call 7 days a week and 24 hours a day. I suspect you are not?

No CEO stops work at 5.30 and this sort of nonsense about CEO salaries is exactly that, nonsense. He is not paid an excessive salary for an organisation of BE size.

There are far bigger savings to be made and the rest of the staff need to realise this.

Judgement Day

lxflyer wrote: »

Well perhaps you would care to be effectively on call 7 days a week and 24 hours a day. I suspect you are not?

No CEO stops work at 5.30 and this sort of nonsense about CEO salaries is exactly that, nonsense. He is not paid an excessive salary for an organisation of BE size.

There are far bigger savings to be made and the rest of the staff need to realise this.

Yes, and if we don't pay CEOs massive salaries we get monkeys....we've heard that before somewhere and look where that got us. Incidentally, what exactly does the CEO of CIE do to fill his day? I'm sure one of you experts must know. :rolleyes:

Losty Dublin

devnull wrote: »

So the average wage in Bus Eireann went up slightly last year, despite what I have read elsewhere claiming the contrary previously.

Staff numbers were down overall to 2,551 from 2,605
26 of those losing jobs were part time and 28 were school bus drivers.

However wages and paroll related costs have increased to €131,688,000 from €130,656,000 including pensions and social welfare costs.

That means average staff costs have increased to €51,622 from €50,155 that they were during the previous accounting year.

Stripping out pension and social welfare costs, average wages have increased from €42,977 to €43,957 which equals a net increase of just over 2% on average wages at the company.

Basically any inefficiencies cut out by cutting numbers have been wiped out by wage increases elsewhere.

Would redundancy payments be shown in wages and salaries? If so, given that some staff were entitled to figures up to 2 years salary it would invert the figure somewhat.

LXFlyer

Judgement Day wrote: »

Yes, and if we don't pay CEOs massive salaries we get monkeys....we've heard that before somewhere and look where that got us. Incidentally, what exactly does the CEO of CIE do to fill his day? I'm sure one of you experts must know. :rolleyes:

CIE doesn't have a CEO.

devnull

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Would redundancy payments be shown in wages and salaries? If so, given that some staff were entitled to figures up to 2 years salary it would invert the figure somewhat.

I guess that would depend on the staff involved, but saying that the same could have happened in 2011 as the calculations were based on the same accounting sections so hence I was just comparing like for like figures as contained in the accounts since that is based on factual information.

Anything else is purely speculation and nobody knows if that is correct unless we can find something in the annual report, audited accounts etc which breaks it down, I generally try and stick to such figures since for me it's the most fair and transparent non biased way to do it.

Whilst having a quick look I wasn't able to find anything, but I haven't had a proper read through to see if I can see the word redundancy or severance mentioned anywhere which I'll most likely do when I have a bit more time to look through such a long document.

The PDF is here:
http://www.buseireann.ie/pdf/1369234343-Annual-Report-2012.pdf

Judgement Day

lxflyer wrote: »

CIE doesn't have a CEO.

Okay - the non-executive Chairman of CIE (the holding company), Vivienne Jupp, received €31,000 plus for attending 12 board meetings during the year - a nice little earner by any standard. The whole organisation is past its sell-by date.

johnny76

lxflyer wrote: »

Well perhaps you would care to be effectively on call 7 days a week and 24 hours a day.

Do you honestly believe this to be true?

The top people in CIE are all political appointments, they are not there for their talents.

Grandeeod

devnull wrote: »

So the average wage in Bus Eireann went up slightly last year, despite what I have read elsewhere claiming the contrary previously.

Staff numbers were down overall to 2,551 from 2,605
26 of those losing jobs were part time and 28 were school bus drivers.

However wages and paroll related costs have increased to €131,688,000 from €130,656,000 including pensions and social welfare costs.

That means average staff costs have increased to €51,622 from €50,155 that they were during the previous accounting year.

Stripping out pension and social welfare costs, average wages have increased from €42,977 to €43,957 which equals a net increase of just over 2% on average wages at the company.

Basically any inefficiencies cut out by cutting numbers have been wiped out by wage increases elsewhere.

Careful now;)

Jamie2k9

johnny76 wrote: »

Do you honestly believe this to be true?

I can see where Ixflyer is coming from but a real 24/7 Job is what other IE staff do like track works and so on.

I positive thing out of this is IE passengers increased for second half of the year so if this is maintained this year then there could be a modest increase in 2013.

johnny76

The board members of CIE, no doubt all on top dollar.
http://www.cie.ie/about_us/board_members.asp#members

The department of transport.
http://www.dttas.ie/
Whats Leo's and his underlings job?

Now someone correct me if i am wrong, but is this not a duplication of jobs?
Can big saving be made here?

Every working person in Ireland is hurting today, and we are saying more wage cuts to the workers, but the top earners are earning a fortune in jobs that are duplicated to some extent, cut the waste at the top and then if the company is losing money go after the lower paid workers.

bk

In fairness, in this case the CEO's salary is only 3.5 times the average employees salary.

In the US CEO salaries average 204 times the average employees salary!!

This is up from the 1950's when it was just 20:1.

So I wouldn't say his salary is outrageous.

Tickityboo

lxflyer wrote: »

Well perhaps you would care to be effectively on call 7 days a week and 24 hours a day. I suspect you are not?

No CEO stops work at 5.30 and this sort of nonsense about CEO salaries is exactly that, nonsense. He is not paid an excessive salary for an organisation of BE size.

There are far bigger savings to be made and the rest of the staff need to realise this.

I have no problem with a CEO being paid a high salary.
Once the company is well run and in profitability and the staff are also paid a decent wage and have good conditions.
With regards to him being on call 24/7
7 days a week I'm sure there is some other lackie on a lesser wage woken up first and he is only disturbed as a last resort.

Tickityboo

bk wrote: »

In fairness, in this case the CEO's salary is only 3.5 times the average employees

I really wish people would stop this dividing by the number of employees to come up with the average salary of employees.
It's misrepresenting the figure for the majority of employees.

johnny76

A lot of posters seem to want cuts across all wage grades, but the fact is CIE is like an Army, The workers can only do what management tell them to do.
Stands to reason that if CIE is losing money it is totally the fault of management, but most posters here want to see the staff take a pay cut while the management who make all the decisions get away scott free.
Bus Éireann chief’s pay cut from €189,000 to €184,000 is about €50 a week after tax, he would not even notice it, but a worker on €40,000 most definitely would.
People have got to take a step back and look at those in management earning top dollar but year after year, they lead CIE deeper into debt, yet Leo and government do nothing to remove them from there high paying jobs, but rather blame the workers for the CIE group failings

Facts are CIE as a semi state body is always going to be unprofitable or at best break even as long as we have political appointments to board level and politicians interfering in routes and timetables, never mind the free travel pass fiasco.

dowlingm

CIE is burdened with legacy costs and expectations no private sector company need worry about, including retirees from a time when CIE had a larger workforce. Comparisons with the private sector on straight figures is always going to be dicey on that basis. Problem is how to relieve CIE of its legacy burdens without the EU having a canary about State Aid.

markpb

johnny76 wrote: »

A lot of posters seem to want cuts across all wage grades, but the fact is CIE is like an Army, The workers can only do what management tell them to do.

An army where every order from the top must be negotiated with a union?

bk

Tickityboo wrote: »

I really wish people would stop this dividing by the number of employees to come up with the average salary of employees.
It's misrepresenting the figure for the majority of employees.

In this particular case it is a valid comparison as the US CEO to employee pay gap is based on the same figures (i.e. average salary of all employees versus CEO salary).

Even if you say the average drivers salary is only 40,000, that gives you a ratio 4.5:1 which is still relatively reasonable for a CEO of such a large company.

devnull

Tickityboo wrote: »

I really wish people would stop this dividing by the number of employees to come up with the average salary of employees.
It's misrepresenting the figure for the majority of employees.

It's the only factual way to do it using figures which are known to be correct as published in the audited accounts and also is how the average of anything is worked out.

What is misrepresenting the figure is someone saying "I'm paid this" then using that as a basis since we have no idea if they are telling the truth or not because in general people will talk down their salary anyway when cuts are non the table and point to those higher up.

Unless the CIE companies publish accounts which break down the salary bill into sections for departments and grades of staff all we are left with is an employee number and a salary total and that is all we can work with since it's information that is known to be correct.

Anything else is speculation.

dowlingm

In Ontario any provincial or municipal employee earning over $100K (75K Euro) has their name and amount published. Most years the overtime keeners in ticket offices and such get their name published and the media goes ballistic, and because it's not indexed inevitably the number of people goes up with each publication.

Grandeeod

dowlingm wrote: »

In Ontario any provincial or municipal employee earning over $100K (75K Euro) has their name and amount published. Most years the overtime keeners in ticket offices and such get their name published and the media goes ballistic, and because it's not indexed inevitably the number of people goes up with each publication.

Cracking idea! But cant see it floating in Ireland.