Zerg army building

Gbear

How do you know when to stick or twist with Zerg?
I started off placed in silver and was generally destroying players because they weren't punishing me for macroing up with very little defensive units. I'd then just build waves of ultralisks or Brood/infestor until they died.
I've graduated to gold and now I'm definitely getting punished more.
It's quite fun having to scramble a defence basically from scratch but I just keep dieing.

My map control is generally decent and I usually have a good sense of what the enemy is doing. I can see their army coming from a long way off. Problem is that's when I get my army started usually - I might have a sprinkling of ling/bane/mutas or roaches but nothing like what's necessary to survive, even with 2k 2k and 6 hatches with lots of larvae.
I don't know when to emphasise army over economy and how much of an army I need.
I never really go for the jugular. If I'm ahead I'd rather expand more and win by attrition.


Off topic:
Is it normal for your APM to wildly change in different games.

I must've been possessed or something but my APM was like 250-300 in 4 or 5 games but it's dipped down to a more normal 100-120 lately. Bear in mind that I'm only in gold.

How is there such a high variance in it? I didn't notice myself spamming much. I could scarcely believe I was capable of moving that fast.

mad turnip

I must've been possessed or something but my APM was like 250-300 in 4 or 5 games but it's dipped down to a more normal 100-120 lately. Bear in mind that I'm only in gold.

They updated APM recently it has now about halfed for everybody.

In regards to your question, maybe you should practice some with the other races as according to you, you know exactly what your opponent is doing. In regards to protoss do you know what tech they have? How much gas they have? If you let a protoss get to 3 to 4 bases against you and you haven't done any harass your way behind as protoss tech will always beat down a zerg army as thats how the two races are played. I play toss myself so I can't comment on terran as much but in gold / plat zergs just get walked over because they never have any kind of army size and the simplest of toss tech can kill their army if they go pure macro.

Gbear

mad turnip wrote: »

In regards to your question, maybe you should practice some with the other races as according to you, you know exactly what your opponent is doing. In regards to protoss do you know what tech they have? How much gas they have? If you let a protoss get to 3 to 4 bases against you and you haven't done any harass your way behind as protoss tech will always beat down a zerg army as thats how the two races are played. I play toss myself so I can't comment on terran as much but in gold / plat zergs just get walked over because they never have any kind of army size and the simplest of toss tech can kill their army if they go pure macro.

Generally my problem seems to be more about 2-base Toss or 3 base Terran when I'm on 4 or 5 bases.
They move out around 12-18 minutes and just kill me. Or else I barely survive but I start losing drones, expos, they can expand on the back of that. I then lose within a few minutes.
For example, I had my 4th finished around 16 minutes in a recent game (PvZ) and he attacked me off 2 bases with basically a ball of voids and colossi and I had about 12 corruptors and 12 hydras and that was it. He had about 140 food to my 120.

Looking at the replay it feels like I'm not making drones early enough so then I expand but don't have the drones to fill my 3rd base. That leaves me with not enough mins around 12-18 minutes.
As a result I think I'm then building drones at that stage to make up for the slow start and not emphasising enough on the army.

I'm trying to get more drones built early on.
It feels like that'll leave me vulnerable around 6-12 minutes, with only 4-6 queens, a few spines and a dozen lings or so.

ZvZ isn't as much of a problem for me for some reason. Gold zerg don't seem to use infestors...

mad turnip

As a general rule of thumb in gold league zerg can't go onto 4 bases while protoss is on 2. Especially if you've expanded at like 15mins upload some replays that you think your doing well enough in and maybe people will give you a better idea. You should be hovering no minerals in general if your on 4 bases you must have some kind of an army...

Grimebox

You have basically outlined my biggest problem with playing zerg. It sounds to me that you are overexpanding a little bit though. Try stay just one base ahead of your opponent as a general rule of thumb

Gbear

Grimebox wrote: »

You have basically outlined my biggest problem with playing zerg. It sounds to me that you are overexpanding a little bit though. Try stay just one base ahead of your opponent as a general rule of thumb

Neverrr!! I shall macro them to death or die trying!:pac:

mad turnip wrote: »

As a general rule of thumb in gold league zerg can't go onto 4 bases while protoss is on 2. Especially if you've expanded at like 15mins upload some replays that you think your doing well enough in and maybe people will give you a better idea. You should be hovering no minerals in general if your on 4 bases you must have some kind of an army...

How do I upload replays? There used to be a site called SC2replayed before but it seems to have disappeared.

mad turnip

you find the file, the directory used is usally:

Documents/Starcraft 2/username here

and in there, there is a replays folder, then just upload it on a site like mediafire or www.uppit.com and link to it here and we can download and watch it.

Gbear

http://uppit.com/sh144cv5h273/Derelict_Watcher_TE_(5).SC2Replay
This is the bad one I mentioned a while ago.



http://uppit.com/ehx2kamtjtjy/Bel'Shir_Vestige_LE_(8).SC2Replay

This one is more what I want to be doing.

There's probably a million and one things wrong with them - no idea if the times are ideal for exapanding, should I get 2 queens that early, etc etc. I'm generally happy with the way I play. I'd rather refine this deeply flawed style than try something totally different.
I mostly enjoy playing this way. I'm generally a passive player. I like to see plans mature and grow rather than having to get one big decisive victory.

If I get cheesed I often just die but I don't really mind.

mad turnip

Had a look at both those games, and I must say your macro is quite good for the most part you can easily be in platinum with that play. Your one biggest problem is not knowing the other race?

Talking about the first game:
Your opponent is on 2 bases, you've already seen double robotics and void rays this would indicate a timing is coming otherwise your miles ahead. But instead you spend all this money on techs like range upgrades and attack increases without an army. This in general is not how zerg is played if you were attacked even 1 minute later you would have won especially if you took better positioning on your ramp at the end.

In game 2 you do the same thing loads of tech and not very many units. Your choice of banelings is what won it for you and then when you have EVERY TECH your still on like 120 supply.If you ever watch some pro games you'll notice zerg is usually behind in upgrades as this just appears how you play the race.

Also in the first game you had it won when you killed all the probes in the natural and then left when you seen one void ray, you would have lost all your zerglings but he would have had no probes left and you would have won. The 2 base all in the protoss did was VERY greedy and you didn't punish it enough, there was little chance of you winning after you left him alone for so long not to mention you going tech mad behind it.

TL;DR
less tech more units spend all them minerals!!!!!!
roaches are always good against protoss make them!
don't get both techs at the same time unless your MILES ahead. (muta + infestor) (ultra + broodlords)
spread range units at the top of the ramps, zerg is not played like in a deathball style like toss

Good Points:
Your most likely ranked Number 1 in gold for that creep spread
Bases are taken at good times
good saturation
gas taken at good times
good at being active with lings
good lair timing

in general though less upgrades more units.

Gbear

Wow. That's really incredible feedback.
Thanks!:o
I'll get straight to work tomorrow.

I'm kinda anally retentive about getting upgrades which is probably good overall but probably not every single upgrade there is.:)

In that second game I had 2 ranged upgrades and didn't build 1 ranged unit other than queens.

Grimebox

In the first game, you could have ended it with that group of lings. You evacuate his base when you see one void-ray. You could have killed all his probes and probably the nexus in his main.

I think you over did the static defense on your 3rd base. It's not an awful idea but I prefer to put my money into units, especially if I have map control, which you did have. If he attacks your 3rd and your out of position, just run your drones back to your natural and let him sack it. It's not the end of the world.

Actually you massively overdid static defense after watching again. You see one void ray and build 3 spores at your natural. You're playing scared. Let the fight happen at his base, not yours. Its too early to be investing that much minerals and drones into static. I think this really cripples your economy. Spores aren't even that good against voids.

After you kill 15 of his probes, you are still behind in workers AND on 3-bases. When a fight goes well for you, get in the habit of droning up behind it while continuing to micro. Use your army to keep your base safe and pump the economy. Your use of your lings was very good for most of the game.

That 4th macro hatch in your base doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. You have a ton of larva already and not much money, 6 drones would have been a wiser investment at this stage.

Grimebox

In the other game, you could have been more active with your mutas. Don't be afraid of turrets. You could have easily picked off one or two turrets and wrecked his main mineral line. A lone thor can easily be magic-boxed. Poke a little more at him. Draw him into his main and then do a run-by at his third. The most fun I had with this game was practising multitasking at lower levels. Theres nothing better than pulling off a classic bait-and-switch.

Your style seems to be very defensive. You macro up and wait till he attacks before building your army. Seems fine once you reach a few bases but can easily be exploited with early attacks.

Again, I don't know what that macro hatch was for. You had 3 already I think with a ton of larva. It certainly got used later in the game but why not just build it later in that case when minerals are more plentiful.

Keep in mind I don't play zerg as my main race so I could easily be wrong with all this

Gbear

Grimebox wrote: »

In the other game, you could have been more active with your mutas. Don't be afraid of turrets. You could have easily picked off one or two turrets and wrecked his main mineral line. A lone thor can easily be magic-boxed. Poke a little more at him. Draw him into his main and then do a run-by at his third. The most fun I had with this game was practising multitasking at lower levels. Theres nothing better than pulling off a classic bait-and-switch.

I'm happy enough as long as I keep him on 2 bases. I don't think he ever really got the 3rd base going until I had 4 mining bases and a load of stockpiled money will all my tech done.

Attrition is the way I like to go but I can certainly see how better players would punish me earlier or be better at holding bases. Then having the map control and pressing the advantage with multi-pronged attacks becomes more important.

Gbear

An update:
I've won about 17 of my last 20 games.

Platinum shouldn't be too far off. Thanks again for the feedback.:)

mad turnip

Gbear wrote: »

An update:
I've won about 17 of my last 20 games.

Platinum shouldn't be too far off. Thanks again for the feedback.:)

sounding good!

Gbear

Whats the best way to react to a toss player cannon rushing your natural before it's built? Just scout it better? If they position it properly behind the mineral line that can sometimes be tricky.

I had one game there were I cancelled and immediately built a roach warren for a 9-roach bust a few minutes later. It wasn't very refined seeing as I'd never tried it before.

It worked ok and I could've won the game but for some reason the toss guy had no sentries. I wouldn't have even got into his base if he was able to stop my roaches from walking in and killing loads of his probes and more or less drawing level on workers and getting both my natural and 3rd up.

I ultimately lost for other reasons.

murphzor

If the Protoss is serious about cannon rushing then let them finish the cannon and then cancel your hatchery, the Protoss will at the least make 2 pylons and 1, usually 2 cannons.... quite a bit of an investment, take 2 hatches elsewhere and your natural can be your 4th base later on.

At least that's the advice I'd have given 18 months ago, not up to my old level in SC2 by any means (masters). It might give you some ideas anyway.

Grimebox

Yeah what murph says. It worked on me quite badly a few times. Once I didn't scout his expo at all and I thought he was playing off one-base because his thrid was untouched. Turns out he took the gold at the center which I completely missed. I noticed far too late

Gbear

Decided to have a look at my opening.

Instead of going double extractor trick, 12 hatch, 14 pool I tried going 15 hatch, 15 pool.

The pool and the expo pop only 15 seconds later but I have 2 extra drones. Other than that I can't see a huge difference.

It'll give me a little less wiggle room for dealing with reapers or early lings but I felt that although I was getting an early hatch up, it was sitting doing **** all for about 30 seconds to a minute because I didn't have any drones to put in it.

It always felt like I was having to scramble around to deal with early pressure because I was behind in drones. Maybe this will help.

Gbear

How do zerg deal with HTs?

If they go colossus I find that simple enough to deal with - it becomes simply a question on who has better macro.

Hts are trickier though. Do you bait storms?
Go ling-baneling heavy?

mad turnip

vipers and pull them forward although that is far easier said then done

Gbear

mad turnip wrote: »

vipers and pull them forward although that is far easier said then done

Easier to feedback a viper than lasso a HT.:P

I've used very little of them. Haven't used swarm hosts either.

mad turnip

Gbear wrote: »

Easier to feedback a viper than lasso a HT.:P

I've used very little of them. Haven't used swarm hosts either.

swarm hosts are also a direct counter to them but there easy to beat with a few collosus.

Gbear

mad turnip wrote: »

swarm hosts are also a direct counter to them but there easy to beat with a few collosus.

I've been looking at the spine/spore, swarm host, infestor, corruptor sorts of builds but they just do not look fun at all.