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Land of Milk and Money

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  • 19-05-2013 8:49pm
    #1
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭


    Even allowing for the widespread dislike of stories from INM organs,this piece from the Sunday Indendent is of some interest I should think....

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/nigerians-send-nearly-500m-a-year-home-from-ireland-29278045.html

    Whilst I know the Nigerian work ethic is particularly strong,I am somewhat impressed that 17,642 individuals,not all of them adults,managed to "remit" €462 Million back to Nigeria in 2011.

    This amount,out of a total of €1.8 Billion sent back to "Home Places" in 2011 is surely so out-of-kilter as to merit the attention of a Financial Regulator or two....:o

    Perhaps somebody on here has the inside story ?


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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    #2
    hyperborean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 655 ✭✭✭hyperborean


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    Even allowing for the widespread dislike of stories from INM organs,this piece from the Sunday Indendent is of some interest I should think....

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/nigerians-send-nearly-500m-a-year-home-from-ireland-29278045.html

    Whilst I know the Nigerian work ethic is particularly strong,I am somewhat impressed that 17,642 individuals,not all of them adults,managed to "remit" €462 Million back to Nigeria in 2011.

    This amount,out of a total of €1.8 Billion sent back to "Home Places" in 2011 is surely so out-of-kilter as to merit the attention of a Financial Regulator or two....:o

    Perhaps somebody on here has the inside story ?

    Its even more amazing when you look at the unemployment among Nigerians form CSO data during 2011

    http://www.cso.ie/en/newsandevents/pressreleases/2012pressreleases/pressreleasecensus2011profile3-atwork/
    One in five unemployed people in April 2011 were non-Irish nationals, accounting for 77,460 persons overall. Among nationalities with significant numbers (1,000 or greater) Nigerians had the highest unemployment rate at 39 per cent (down from 45 per cent in 2006) while nationals from Sweden had the lowest rate at 9.4%


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    #3
    Cork boy 55
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,324 ✭✭✭Cork boy 55


    If you benchmark it against the Polish figure/population it is twenty times higher
    The figure is clearly too high for normal remittances

    It is either

    (a) some sort of data error
    (b) some sort of criminal conspiracy, money laundering, or something
    may not even be Nigerian money who knows maybe there is a blackhole in Ireland regulation of this sector
    (c) something else


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    #4
    sock puppet
    Registered Users Posts: 4,586 ✭✭✭sock puppet


    May as well just paste in my post from after hours.
    sock puppet wrote: »
    southsiderosie is completely right. There is absolutely nothing in the figures to warrant further investigation (well other than in an academic sense). From what I can see, the total remittances sent to Nigeria from all countries is known. The amount of that money coming from each country is then estimated using four figures: Irish GNI per capita, Nigerian GNI per capita, number of Nigerians in Ireland, and total number of Nigerians living abroad.

    Benefit fraud, illegal immigration, or criminal or terrorist activity would have global rather than local effects on the figures.

    In short, they aren't actual figures from Ireland to Nigeria, they just measure the total remittances to Nigeria from all countries and divide it up between other countries in the world based on each country's Nigerian population and GNI.

    If you want to inform yourself about a piece of academic research, just read the original paper and ignore absolutely everything that may be mentioned in the media.


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    #5
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    sock puppet wrote: »
    May as well just paste in my post from after hours.

    In short, they aren't actual figures from Ireland to Nigeria, they just measure the total remittances to Nigeria from all countries and divide it up between other countries in the world based on each country's Nigerian population and GNI.

    If you want to inform yourself about a piece of academic research, just read the original paper and ignore absolutely everything that may be mentioned in the media.

    Ah,thank you Sock Puppet,I stand suitably corrrected.

    Thank heavens I prefaced my post thus...
    Even allowing for the widespread dislike of stories from INM organs,this piece from the Sunday Indendent is of some interest I should think....
    .

    In my defence,I was'nt attempting to "inform myself" about any academic research,merely quoting what appeared to be (remains,perhaps ?) an article of passing interest.

    But as you say,there's nothing to see,here and Cork Boy may well be correct...
    (a) some sort of data error
    (b) some sort of criminal conspiracy, money laundering, or something
    may not even be Nigerian money who knows maybe there is a blackhole in Ireland regulation of this sector
    (c) something else

    We'll go with (c) then, so much easier that way,I suppose ?


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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    #6
    sock puppet
    Registered Users Posts: 4,586 ✭✭✭sock puppet


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    Ah,thank you Sock Puppet,I stand suitably corrrected.

    Thank heavens I prefaced my post thus....

    In my defence,I was'nt attempting to "inform myself" about any academic research,merely quoting what appeared to be (remains,perhaps ?) an article of passing interest.

    But as you say,there's nothing to see,here and Cork Boy may well be correct...



    We'll go with (c) then, so much easier that way,I suppose ?

    Ah I wasn't having a go at you or anything. It just annoys me when newspapers report on research as they almost always get it wrong.

    I think it's interesting as an academic exercise but it doesn't have any policy implications for Ireland really. What is apparent is that globally Nigerians send home a very large amount of money - to be fair it could be due to illegal immigration or uncounted immigrants (they are only using figures supplied to them by governments after all), or possibly a few incredibly rich Nigerians pushing up the average who could be anywhere in the world, but it's impossible to tell to what extent if any Irish based Nigerians would be contributing towards these factors.


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    #7
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    sock puppet wrote: »
    Ah I wasn't having a go at you or anything. It just annoys me when newspapers report on research as they almost always get it wrong.

    I think it's interesting as an academic exercise but it doesn't have any policy implications for Ireland really. What is apparent is that globally Nigerians send home a very large amount of money - to be fair it could be due to illegal immigration or uncounted immigrants (they are only using figures supplied to them by governments after all), or possibly a few incredibly rich Nigerians pushing up the average who could be anywhere in the world, but it's impossible to tell to what extent if any Irish based Nigerians would be contributing towards these factors.

    I must admit I don't fully understand these figures, but I know of several people who live in Ireland, but they work in Nigeria. I'm not sure where they are paid, but they have to book their own hotels, cars etc for the time they ate in Nigeria and claim it back on expenses. They are probably spending €30 k a year on this with credit cards registered in Ireland. Would this all count to those figures?


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    #8
    Cork boy 55
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,324 ✭✭✭Cork boy 55


    I used remittances stats before(Ireland->Poland) in another thread ages ago I looked it up there the source was the National bank of Poland
    I assume Government and national banks have a good idea of remittances figures or least a good estimate.
    So there are other sources out there.

    Well the Fianna fail guy asked Shatter a question so he will await his response if he is still around or if he bothers


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    #9
    Dannyboy83
    Registered Users Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    Did the Nigerian community in Ireland not have anyone to speak out on their behalf?
    This must surely have damaged their reputation heavily.

    I was under the impression that this report was accurate until I read the explanation on this site.
    Clearly a nawful lot of the public still believe it's accurate.

    Shouldn't the indo issue an apology?


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    #10
    robp
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭robp


    Dannyboy83 wrote: »
    Did the Nigerian community in Ireland not have anyone to speak out on their behalf?
    This must surely have damaged their reputation heavily.

    I was under the impression that this report was accurate until I read the explanation on this site.
    Clearly a nawful lot of the public still believe it's accurate.

    Shouldn't the indo issue an apology?

    Unless I missed a post earlier there is no proven error in the report or sound explanation that can account for it so I can't imagine an apology is deserved. As far as can be ascertained there the story remains neither here nor there. It is data heavy but conclusion poor.


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    #11
    Dannyboy83
    Registered Users Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    robp wrote: »
    Unless I missed a post earlier there is no proven error in the report or sound explanation that can account for it so I can't imagine an apology is deserved. As far as can be ascertained there the story remains neither here nor there. It is data heavy but conclusion poor.

    See Sockpuppet's conclusion:
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=84698092&postcount=4

    In short, they aren't actual figures from Ireland to Nigeria, they just measure the total remittances to Nigeria from all countries and divide it up between other countries in the world based on each country's Nigerian population and GNI.

    That brings to 4 the number of factually inaccurate big stories in the last fortnight, as per this thread:http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056952696


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    #12
    robp
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭robp


    Dannyboy83 wrote: »
    See Sockpuppet's conclusion:


    That brings to 4 the number of factually inaccurate big stories in the last fortnight, as per this thread:http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056952696

    Well I am not sure how that makes the story inaccurate. it just indicates the phenomenon is international and these Irish figures are just rough estimates. Don't see any rebuttal to the meth story.


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    #13
    Dannyboy83
    Registered Users Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    robp wrote: »
    Well I am not sure how that makes the story inaccurate. it just indicates the phenomenon is international and these Irish figures are just rough estimates.

    But isn't that the point - The figures are not estimates, they're a wild guess based on a mathematical ratio which could be totally inaccurate.
    Don't see any rebuttal to the meth story.
    There was no rebuttal to the meth story, it appears to be a genuine phenomenon. But that I wasn't making a point that the meth story was unfounded.

    When you publish a seemingly unfounded story about Nigerians sending home half a billion from Ireland and meth toting Nigerian gangs in Ireland on the same day, it's going to have a much more significant impact than if either of the stories were published independently.

    If it were the Irish community or Latin community in America, there would have been a representative come forward to at the very least explain why the estimates are not truthful representations, if not condemn a possible incitement to ethnic or racial hatred. (even if it were true! I'm just more surprised that nobody has reacted really I guess)


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    #14
    robp
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭robp


    Dannyboy83 wrote: »
    But isn't that the point - The figures are not estimates, they're a wild guess based on a mathematical ratio which could be totally inaccurate.


    There was no rebuttal to the meth story, it appears to be a genuine phenomenon. But that I wasn't making a point that the meth story was unfounded.

    When you publish a seemingly unfounded story about Nigerians sending home half a billion from Ireland and meth toting Nigerian gangs in Ireland on the same day, it's going to have a much more significant impact than if either of the stories were published independently.

    If it were the Irish community or Latin community in America, there would have been a representative come forward to at the very least explain why the estimates are not truthful representations, if not condemn a possible incitement to ethnic or racial hatred. (even if it were true! I'm just more surprised that nobody has reacted really I guess)

    Well the remittance story was misleadingly vague in its reporting of the calculations and yes I agree there is an element of opportunism by the SINDO. I am too surprised there was no statement by an Nigerian association. A comment or clarification would be very welcome but it would be a bit much for them to claim there has been incitement to ethnic or racial hatred.


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    #15
    Dannyboy83
    Registered Users Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    robp wrote: »
    it would be a bit much for them to claim there has been incitement to ethnic or racial hatred.

    Yea, that's a fair enough point really, I've probably been conditioned by the likes of Pavee Point to always expect the ultimate milking tbh.


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