Punchestown race course - No dogs off leads?

Cupcake01

I'm a regular user of punchestown racecourse to walk my dogs. I have one dog who likes to walk off the lead. I am very responsible, clean up after them, put them back on the lead if people or other dogs approach etc..
Ive been noticing a man, an older man, following people and telling them to put their dogs on the lead, I even saw him chasing two women.
My question is - do you know who he is? Is he authorized to do this?
He followed me with his car the other day as I was walking, he then approached me and said "this is a strike, one more and it's a red card."
He really threw me off, it's somewhere that I love to go and get away from things, but knowing he's following people bugs me.
Does anyone know anything?

One shot on kill

Did you not ask him who he was and show you ID no.

If his ans wasn't satisfying I'd tell him to mind his on business.

Orion

Tell him to shag off. Dog wardens carry id and don't do "red cards". Ask for his ID next time and then ignore him when he doesn't have any. He's obviously just a busy body. Also make it obvious that you're taking his car reg too - there are more laws against stalking than dog walking.
There is no law requiring you to have a dog on a lead (except certain specific breeds and they require muzzles) as long as you have effective control of the dog - that means the dog coming when called.

Hoagy

There is a 'dogs on leads' sign at the gate, though, which is largely ignored.
Lately they've added something about obeying the rule in order to keep the facility open. I'd imagine the next step will be a no dogs rule. It is private property after all.

One shot on kill

Orion wrote: »

Tell him to shag off. Dog wardens carry id and don't do "red cards". Ask for his ID next time and then ignore him when he doesn't have any. He's obviously just a busy body. Also make it obvious that you're taking his car reg too - there are more laws against stalking than dog walking.
There is no law requiring you to have a dog on a lead (except certain specific breeds and they require muzzles) as long as you have effective control of the dog - that means the dog coming when called.

As far as I know all dogs have to be on leads no matter what the make or model of the dog. But yes some dogs do need to have muzzles alright.

Karlitto

Cupcake01 wrote: »

I'm a regular user of punchestown racecourse to walk my dogs. I have one dog who likes to walk off the lead. I am very responsible, clean up after them, put them back on the lead if people or other dogs approach etc..
Ive been noticing a man, an older man, following people and telling them to put their dogs on the lead, I even saw him chasing two women.
My question is - do you know who he is? Is he authorized to do this?
He followed me with his car the other day as I was walking, he then approached me and said "this is a strike, one more and it's a red card."
He really threw me off, it's somewhere that I love to go and get away from things, but knowing he's following people bugs me.
Does anyone know anything?

Kildare do not have dog bye laws, so only the control of dogs act applies, and the control of dogs act does not state anywhere that dogs must be on a lead, rather it says "dogs must be under EFFECTUAL control" which means, your dog can be off the lead, but when you call him/her, he/she comes to you.

Is this part an OPW park? If so, check their bye laws, they may say dogs must be kept on a lead.

If you see the guy again, ask to see ID, ask if he is a dog warden, if he is not, tell him to **** off and stop hassling people and find something better to do.

mattser

Hoagy wrote: »

There is a 'dogs on leads' sign at the gate, though, which is largely ignored.
Lately they've added something about obeying the rule in order to keep the facility open. I'd imagine the next step will be a no dogs rule. It is private property after all.

And proper order if it goes to that.

And this crack about " effective control ".......some joke that. I've been stopped in my tracks by dogs, in the middle of my 10K jogs, but they " returned to owner when called."

Magilla Gorilla

Dogs do not have to be kept on a lead; as stated above, it's "effectual control". Many Irish people do not understand this simple concept alas, and allow their dogs to do what they want.

The dog warden has no authority to patrol private lands. Punchestown is private property, and the owners/operators can set their own rules. Assuming this man is staff, he is within his rights to enforce their rules. I'd get him to confirm his status as such, but otherwise, he's the boss......

Karlitto

Magilla Gorilla wrote: »

Dogs do not have to be kept on a lead; as stated above, it's "effectual control". Many Irish people do not understand this simple concept alas, and allow their dogs to do what they want.

The dog warden has no authority to patrol private lands. Punchestown is private property, and the owners/operators can set their own rules. Assuming this man is staff, he is within his rights to enforce their rules. I'd get him to confirm his status as such, but otherwise, he's the boss......

Well, I personally would go a step further, I would request to see this rule in writing. Once he presents it in writing, then I would abide by the rule, but until then, my dog would be off the lead.

One shot on kill

Karlitto wrote: »

Well, I personally would go a step further, I would request to see this rule in writing. Once he presents it in writing, then I would abide by the rule, but until then, my dog would be off the lead.

That a bit silly sorry now. If you were in my land and I asked you to put your dog on a lead. And you ans me like that I'd just put you off the land whether its asking you to leave or ringing the guards.

Don't forget it's private property and every time you go onto someone else's land they are liable not you. They have the right to apply rules and the right to deny entry. You don't have the right to demand it in writing.

Not asking the guy who he is and if he is an employee ask for ID. If he has all these you should do as asked so you don't cause any undue grief on yourself.

If he is just a busy body tell him not to be bothering you. Then report him to the racecourse or to the guards.

Dog laws, bye laws does not matter this is private property and this is what were all missing. They could just put up a sign trespassers will be prosicuted.

Karlitto

One shot on kill wrote: »

That a bit silly sorry now. If you were in my land and I asked you to put your dog on a lead. And you ans me like that I'd just put you off the land whether its asking you to leave or ringing the guards.

Don't forget it's private property and every time you go onto someone else's land they are liable not you. They have the right to apply rules and the right to deny entry. You don't have the right to demand it in writing.

Not asking the guy who he is and if he is an employee ask for ID. If he has all these you should do as asked so you don't cause any undue grief on yourself.

If he is just a busy body tell him not to be bothering you. Then report him to the racecourse or to the guards.

Dog laws, bye laws does not matter this is private property and this is what were all missing. They could just put up a sign trespassers will be prosicuted.

Whilst I agree with you in terms of your land = your rules, the rules should be in writing and on display to anyone entering the property. I would not accept anyone coming up to me and "telling" me the rules, how do I know they are the actual rules and not just made up on the spot.

But the second part I agree with.

the reason I am so "headstrong" about this is due to the lack of public knowledge around the bye laws and general law. I am always being told to put my dog on a lead by members of the public who are ill educated, I have done my homework on the matter so I know the law surrounding dogs.

Of course the best first course of action is to follow what you have said, but I have found people to be ignorant :<

One shot on kill

I agree with people been ignorent and thinking the world revolves around them. Although I personally have no problem walking a dog of a lead or seeing s someone else do so. But putting up signs is inviting peoe onto the lad and therefore a accepting liability. Would that be right to say.

Hoagy

Karlitto wrote: »

Whilst I agree with you in terms of your land = your rules, the rules should be in writing and on display to anyone entering the property. I would not accept anyone coming up to me and "telling" me the rules, how do I know they are the actual rules and not just made up on the spot.

But the second part I agree with.

the reason I am so "headstrong" about this is due to the lack of public knowledge around the bye laws and general law. I am always being told to put my dog on a lead by members of the public who are ill educated, I have done my homework on the matter so I know the law surrounding dogs.

Of course the best first course of action is to follow what you have said, but I have found people to be ignorant :<

Here's the sign at the main gate.





We were there yesterday evening and as usual there were several loose dogs not under any control effectual or otherwise.

We've seen people even drive their cars around the field with their dog running behind.

Karlitto

Hoagy wrote: »

Here's the sign at the main gate.





We were there yesterday evening and as usual there were several loose dogs not under any control effectual or otherwise.

We've seen people even drive their cars around the field with their dog running behind.

Well then in this case, dogs should be on a lead!

It is not that hard, especially since it is private property

I personally have never been there outside of festivals.

It is a totally different story with OPW land and public land. As I mentioned, Kildare do not have any dog bye laws, so government law is to be followed.

The fact is yes, the dogs should have been on a lead in this area, but from your post, simply by saying "We were there yesterday evening and as usual there were several loose dogs not under any control effectual or otherwise." it would seem you are one of the people who don't know what you are talking about and want the dogs to be on a lead for no reason. I mean, do you even understand what effectual control is?

Effectual control has nothing to do with a dog running around the place playing, effectual control, in essence is, if you call your dog, it should return.

Anyway, case closed, in punchestown racecourse, the dogs should be on the lead, private property, clearly marked, end of story.

Personally, I wouldn't go there anyway, walking a dog on a lead (other than giving them lead training) is pointless. Dogs need to be able to run free and exercise, this they cannot do on a lead.

westies4ever

love walking my dogs off lead but not to the detriment of others. if the sign says 'dogs must be kept on a lead' then they should be kept on a lead.

if everyone ignores it then as previously posters have said, dogs will be banned compeltely and its ruined for everyone.

why not just find somewhere else to let the dog off for a run?

You have to keep dogs on a lead in Punchestown. If you want them to have a good run/walk off the lead, go out theBlessington road to Glending Forest. Its a much nicer walk.

mattser

Hoagy wrote: »

Here's the sign at the main gate.





We were there yesterday evening and as usual there were several loose dogs not under any control effectual or otherwise.

We've seen people even drive their cars around the field with their dog running behind.

`

Nice one Punchestown. Will have to head there for a few 2 mile laps when they rid us of those with no leads on.

Karlitto

Castletown in Celbridge/Leixlip is a lovely walk, ignore the "dogs on lead signs" as they have no toll. It is public land yes, but under OPW, and according to kildare Coco, there are no bye laws for dogs on this land so the signs are irrelevant, hence, it is under the control of dogs act which as you can see from previous posts, does not require dogs to be on a lead.

Furthermore, there is an issue, since they have put a decent footpath there and some bridges over the rivers there are a lot of assholes who are walking/cycling etc. who will tell you to put your dog on a lead. If this happens, ask them if they are a dog warden, when they say no, say goodbye and continue on your merry way. These people who come out once in a blue moon when it is a nice day to go for a stroll think (for some reason) they can tell the people who walk there in hail, rain or snow what they should be doing, as if they own the land.

cgarvey

Or, you know, you could just be respectful of others that also use Castletown. Not everyone loves dogs, not everyone is thrilled with dogs roaming free around them, and not everyone else's dogs are all that fond of roaming dogs either.

Also, are you confusing public rights of way with land under state ownership? OPW own (parts of) the land, and are fully entitled to erect the signs (and eject you), no?

mattser

cgarvey wrote: »

Or, you know, you could just be respectful of others that also use Castletown. Not everyone loves dogs, not everyone is thrilled with dogs roaming free around them, and not everyone else's dogs are all that fond of roaming dogs either.

Also, are you confusing public rights of way with land under state ownership? OPW own (parts of) the land, and are fully entitled to erect the signs (and eject you), no?

+1

Karlitto

cgarvey wrote: »

Or, you know, you could just be respectful of others that also use Castletown. Not everyone loves dogs, not everyone is thrilled with dogs roaming free around them, and not everyone else's dogs are all that fond of roaming dogs either.

Also, are you confusing public rights of way with land under state ownership? OPW own (parts of) the land, and are fully entitled to erect the signs (and eject you), no?

I appreciate not everyone loves dogs, or dogs roaming free, and other dogs may not like dogs roaming free. But quite frankly, people can go to any park they wish, dogs cannot, castletown is one of the last few places you can walk your dog off a lead in a park, so if the above don't like it, either deal with it and keep their ill educated mouths shut or find another park to walk in. (when I refer to ill educated, I mean ill educated on dog laws only nothing else)

And no, I am not confusing public rights of way with land under state ownership. What I am saying is, land under OPW, if they want to have rules (also known as bye laws) in relation to specific things, such as dog control, they are required (according to kildare county council) to publish the bye laws, Kildare coco have said that if they want to erect signs, they can do so, and probably do it as a deterrent, but as there are no published bye laws for the land of castletown, there is no legal requirement for you to follow any of the "rules" presented to you whilst on the land, but you must however follow the dog laws that exist on a countrywide level, i.e. the control of dogs act.

Furthermore, no they cannot eject you from the land, whilst they may own "part" of the land, they do not have the right to refuse entry, if you are committing a crime or engage in "anti social behavior" they must contact the police (which they do) who will come and remove the party in question, HOWEVER! They police are able to issue fines for illegal activities (i.e. letting your dog **** and not cleaning it up) but the county council need to follow up.

Danpad

I think a bit of common sense (and decency?) needs to be applied to the whole 'dog off the lead' carry on. If I was to take advantage about the lack of law governing this I could let my boxer and german shepherd off the lead in the middle of a public park and let them run where they want. However, I'm obliged to keep the shepherd on a lead and muzzled whilst out in public so that's a no-no and secondly my boxer weighs in at roughly six stone of pure muscle so you don't want him pelting about the place at 30mph! Personally I think there's a time and a place to let your dogs off the lead and that is in a very spacious field/green/park when nobody is about. I achieve this by getting up early in the morning and taking the dogs out for their stretch when most people are still in bed!

BuffyBot

Folks, what goes on at venues other than Punchestown is not relevant on this thread.

Joe Public

BuffyBot wrote: »

Folks, what goes on at venues other than Punchestown is not relevant on this thread.

Many of the preceding posts just confirm the reasons why Punchestown has to take this stance. Dogs need to be kept fully in control where other people and/or horses are about. People have more rights than animals. Horses like humans can be spooked by dogs.

mattser

Danpad wrote: »

I think a bit of common sense (and decency?) needs to be applied to the whole 'dog off the lead' carry on. If I was to take advantage about the lack of law governing this I could let my boxer and german shepherd off the lead in the middle of a public park and let them run where they want. However, I'm obliged to keep the shepherd on a lead and muzzled whilst out in public so that's a no-no and secondly my boxer weighs in at roughly six stone of pure muscle so you don't want him pelting about the place at 30mph! Personally I think there's a time and a place to let your dogs off the lead and that is in a very spacious field/green/park when nobody is about. I achieve this by getting up early in the morning and taking the dogs out for their stretch when most people are still in bed!

I wish more dog walking people had your attitude, Danpad. Your post is very refreshing. As for the Boxer, a friend of mine has a young Boxer bitch. Sometimes I take her for a walk ( The dog, that is, ), and while she's a loveable , gentle, slobbering eegit, her strength is awesome. How does she/he get on with the GS ?

Danpad

Boxer & GS get on great! They love to play...loudly...at 5.30am each morning!

cgarvey

Karlitto wrote: »

either deal with it and keep their ill educated mouths shut or find another park to walk in.

That attitude is what has us in this mess. You're dragging down the bad reputation dog owners (on or off lead!) already had, even further.

Whatever the legal status (I'm not convinced by your argument, by the way, because if OPW could not reserve the right to reuse admission, there'd be a permanent car park, camping site, outdoor teenage bar & BBQ, and a halting site), you could just put your dog on a lead when around other people or other dogs on leads. That, to me, is just a bit of social decency.

BuffyBot

You know what folks, this has gone on long enough and folks can't follow a simple instruction.

Moral of story: OP, contact Punchestown. Establish if this person is staff. If he is, then that's a matter between you and them.

Thread closed