Marriage Cert query

Waitsian

When a civil marriage is being certified and the bride needs to identify her father, is it always the biological father (dead or alive) she names? If her mother was widowed and remarried whilst the bride was a little girl, might she name her step-father? Or would the registrar know better and insist she provide the name of her biological father?

I have a couple married in 1869 who went on to have seven children. The bride's father on her civil marriage record is listed as Patrick Brady.

But on both civil and baptism records for her children she's listed variously as Smith (her husband's surname, her newly married name), Brady and some variation of Denvir.

Just to give some examples:

1st child - on both the baptism entry and the birth registry she is listed as Smith and on the latter formerly Denvir.

2nd child - on the baptism entry she's listed as Brady but on the civil registry she's named as Smith formerly Denvir.

3rd child - baptism, Denvir; civil cert, Smith formerly Denipher.

4th child - baptism, Denvir; civil, Smith formerly Brady.

I'm really confused!

The family story goes that this woman mentioned above (Mary) was the daughter of a Frenchman called Denoir. I've pretty much determined that it's Denvir, quite a common name in the North-East of Ireland. It's said the Denvir man died, and his wife remarried - to a Brady. Her name (the widow) was supposedly McDonnell.

On land records in the townland where the children mentioned above were born, but twenty years previously (in other words when Mary was a child) there is a Widow McDonnell living right next door (across the field) from a Daniel Diniver.

Could the widow have got pregnant to the Diniver/Denvir man, then married Patrick Brady to legitimise the birth? :eek:

It could be even more complicated. I found a baptism entry for a child fitting Mary's age born in 1845, and in the right area, born to a McDonnell couple. Could the mother have been made pregnant by Denvir whilst still married, was then widowed, remarried Brady who raised Mary as his own, then years later the widow told her daughter her real father was Denvir!?

I'm lost...

dido2

Have you got an area and a first name of the Denvir man???

Did you find any marriage record for a Denvir man to a McDonnell Woman??

Waitsian

dido2 wrote: »

Have you got an area and a first name of the Denvir man???

Did you find any marriage record for a Denvir man to a McDonnell Woman??

It's near Cootehill in Cavan. The only man with that name in that area in the right time is Daniel Denvir/Diniver (definitely same individual, just a mis-spelling on a land record).

No to the second question, nor a birth with Denvir as a father in the area.

dido2

I've managed to piece them all together and just having a look to see if I can spot something

Does this record tie in with your family I wonder, https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FG8T-2LN or I wonder is this your Daniel Deniver, probate in 1859 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/KCF2-568

dido2

There appears to be 3 different references to the same person and probate
https://www.familysearch.org/search/record/results#count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3Adaniel%20%2Bsurname%3Adenvir&collection_id=2040586

Waitsian

dido2 wrote: »

I've managed to piece them all together and just having a look to see if I can spot something

Does this record tie in with your family I wonder,

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FG8T-2LN or I wonder is this your Daniel Deniver, probate in 1859 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/KCF2-568

Yes that's definitely the same man that I'm curious about. I was unaware of the second record so thanks for that, I'll look into it.

I've seen the first record. My thinking is that the Mary named is his legitimate daughter, from a marriage. I think there's a possibility, or I'm suggesting or wondering rather, that the other Mary (as previously mentioned marrying in 1869) is his illegitimate daughter, a fact only revealed to her around the time of her marriage.

I don't understand or am trying to come up with solutions as to why she is variously listed on her children's baptism and birth records as being formerly both Brady and some variation of Denvir. Does that make sense?

dido2

IT makes perfect sense!! I'll give you an idea of how my grandmother done things...

She was supposed to be "orphaned" she went by the name Mona Finn, born May 1926, on checking for her baptism record she is baptised in the same church in May 1926 mothers name Moran, Fathers name Finn... all grand, all her kids had mothers maiden as Finn.. She had another child before she married, both her and her son have a different surname, the surname of the niece of the woman who "took her in!" on further looking she is down on school records as this other womans surname and a different date of birth too, we've got no birth cert for so we've no idea who really is her mother or what her date of birth is!!

She may possibly have been going with what she'd been told too and probably put down whatever name she felt like putting down when she did!!

Did you ever try to get her mothers death cert to see what info that held??

Waitsian

Actually I've just looked up the second record on Findmypast, and I have seen it before. He is listed as on the same townland as a widow Mary McDonald. In Griffiths they are listed, exact same location, as Mary McDonnell and Daniel Diniver.

Waitsian

dido2 wrote: »

IT makes perfect sense!! I'll give you an idea of how my grandmother done things...

She was supposed to be "orphaned" she went by the name Mona Finn, born May 1926, on checking for her baptism record she is baptised in the same church in May 1926 mothers name Moran, Fathers name Finn... all grand, all her kids had mothers maiden as Finn.. She had another child before she married, both her and her son have a different surname, the surname of the niece of the woman who "took her in!" on further looking she is down on school records as this other womans surname and a different date of birth too, we've got no birth cert for so we've no idea who really is her mother or what her date of birth is!!

She may possibly have been going with what she'd been told too and probably put down whatever name she felt like putting down when she did!!

Did you ever try to get her mothers death cert to see what info that held??

Interesting theory. Thanks.

Actually no, I must.

dido2

The time frame would be right for Mary Denvir/Brady/Smith to be a child when her father died, is there any marriage cert for a McDonnell/Denvir around that time??
Have you looked at the marriage record in the church rather than just the civil record??

Waitsian

dido2 wrote: »

The time frame would be right for Mary Denvir/Brady/Smith to be a child when her father died, is there any marriage cert for a McDonnell/Denvir around that time??


Have you looked at the marriage record in the church rather than just the civil record??

Indeed it would Re timeframe.

No and yes respectively to your questions.

Thanks for this. The questions and suggestions make me look at it in a whole new way.


Do you know the answer to my initial question btw, or does anyone else? Would a woman put a step-father down on a marriage cert as her father?

dido2

I think in that time records were very loose and at times were untrue because it was easier than to have to explain things..
I've another situation where a woman married twice but her father is listed by her first husbands surname on her second marriage cert, so if we didn't know who was who would have been looking at a whole other surname!!!

Is there any hint as to what happened to Marys mother?? If she was meant to have married Patrick Brady I wonder if tracking him down would help track Marys mother down too..

tanoralover

mod9maple wrote: »

Would a woman put a step-father down on a marriage cert as her father?

Yes it is possible. Perhaps she hadn't told her husband yet who her real father was.

Waitsian

dido2 wrote: »

I think in that time records were very loose and at times were untrue because it was easier than to have to explain things..
I've another situation where a woman married twice but her father is listed by her first husbands surname on her second marriage cert, so if we didn't know who was who would have been looking at a whole other surname!!!

Is there any hint as to what happened to Marys mother?? If she was meant to have married Patrick Brady I wonder if tracking him down would help track Marys mother down too..

Well she was still alive in 1882 when her daughter gave birth to her 7th child - my grandfather. She was present at the birth and made her mark - an X. The address then was Drumnagran, a townland outside Cootehill.

I presume she died in that locality and her death registered in Cootehill. But having checked the indexes there are a LOT of Mary Bradys registered from 1882 onwards, even only up to 1900. I must check the 1901 census, never thought of that!! I should ring the parish too and ask where the nearest graveyard is...

Waitsian

tanoralover wrote: »

Yes it is possible. Perhaps she hadn't told her husband yet who her real father was.

And in fact no mention of Denvir til the birth of their first child 2 years later.

dido2

Have you looked at the Calendar of Wills?? Some Patrick Brady's on it
http://www.willcalendars.nationalarchives.ie/search/cwa/results.jsp?deceasedSurname=Brady&deceasedForename=Patrick&beneficiarySurname=&beneficiaryForename=&dateDay=&dateMonth=&dateYear=&placeDeath=Cavan&probateOrAdministration=&search=Search

dido2

Did Mary Mary Marry James Smith in Newry or Pat Smith in Cavan???

Waitsian

dido2 wrote: »

Did Mary Mary Marry James Smith in Newry or Pat Smith in Cavan???

James Smith in Newry